Is faith a choice?

[Kuzushi]

I don’t do “convincing”! I do “informing”, as best as I’m informed, myself. When I’m wrong about something the Church says I’m RAPIDLY smacked down and dragged in for a good “re-education”, as it were.

I had 12 years of catholic “informing” in school and I still have doubts as you can see.

 

[Kuzushi]

Interesting observation. I wonder if this ideal stems from the misplaced ideal of many that humans should be more machine-like (hence machines and computers are always better at doing human things than humans) and thus a perfect being like God should be perfectly machine-like.

I doubt anyone in the know would really say we humans should be more “machine-like.” Computers are limited by the garbage in garbage out rule after all. We humans are fine the way we are, but sometimes we let our emotions rule in cases where we should use reason. To paraphrase St Francis; we must have the wisdom to know the difference.

 

[Kuzushi]

The “scientistic materialist” worldview (religion) is that “We are borg!”.

I think that may be your perception of what some scientist are saying, but I have never heard any of them espouse this view. Where are you getting this from? As I have said in a prior post I have found many atheist to be quite moral and open to where ever the evidence leads.

 

[Kuzushi]

Kuzushi:

I am going to push a little harder here, b/c your posts generally reflect my thinking.

I agree that I believe the Church generally does scrutinize these events and does not rubber stamp them. The Church has said the miracle at Fatima is authentic. So…is this enough for you? Do you believe the the miracle of the dancing sun took place, and that God personally intervened in our world and suspended the laws of physics? If so, why the need for the clearly verifiable modern miracle of the regrowth of a limb?

–Rico

I am not sure; did the Church say the dancing sun thing was a verified miracle? I must admit that I only have a cursory memory of the Fatima miracles from a class I took at church years ago. From what I recall I never did see anything like a chopped off leg growing back. I remember thinking at the time of the class that some of the “cures” may have been psychosomatic.

The REAL miracle is how powerful the human mind can be. Sometimes attitude will work for you or against you. I just cringe when so many Christians seem to give 100% of the credit to God when it is entirely probable he had nothing to do with it. Yet when something bad happens or nothing happens they just say “well I guess that is God’s way of saying no.”

 

[Kuzushi]

sorry edit error

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse!! Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse!! Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spuse.

One amputee received a miracle, not that her amputated leg would grow back but that her other leg, due to be amputated, would not be amputated. It was this miracle that helped lead to St. Faustina’s canonization in 2000. The woman whose one leg was amputated and other leg was restored is still alive, with a husband and children. She is making a movie about her experiences and I believe she is open for contact, as she lists her contact information. Her and her husband are living a life of witness to thousands in the U.S.

Story of the Miracle!

thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3204 (story of the miracle, plus information on how you can reach her)

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Kuzushi]

One amputee received a miracle, not that her amputated leg would grow back but that her other leg, due to be amputated, would not be amputated.

My background is certainly not in medicine, but I am sure a good doctor could tell you many legitimate reasons why the leg was saved from being cut. Again, if God could intervene to stop a leg from being cut why not grow back a leg that was amputated? What is the difference? A miracle is a miracle.

I know I am being repetitive, but it seems that you all have accepted a delineation line for what Cats and Dogs calls “counter-normal-mechanics-type miracles.” My Bible makes no such distinction.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

thedivinemercy.org/message/stfaustina/graces.php
“When she returned to the U.S. she was examined by five independent doctors who came to the conclusion that she was completely healed. They had no medical explanation for the sudden healing of this incurable disease.” (The first posted article)

*Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I believe faith is a state of mind. It might strengthen over time, or not. It can change after a few “phases”, or stay the same forever. It’s all on the person.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[Kuzushi]

“When she returned to the U.S. she was examined by five independent doctors who came to the conclusion that she was completely healed. They had no medical explanation for the sudden healing of this incurable disease.”

That just means the doctor’s conclusions are inconclusive. Your example just begs my question. If God made it possible for this woman not to have her leg amputated why not grow back the leg of one who has suffered an amputation or who was born without a leg?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
It’s not the “positive thinking” that makes prayer effective. It is having God’s principles as your basis of action that make one courageous.

There are many highly moral atheists. The principles and morality of Christianity are not unique.

Who are these “high moral atheists”?

No one is saying that Christianity OWNS morality. But anything that IS moral is best expressed by Christianity (Catholic version), and anything supposedly “moral” that is not found IN Catholic morality is not actually moral.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Again, God always gets the benefit of the doubt. When a prayer as meager as getting an extra unexpected dollar or two occurs Christians “thank the lord, praise his name,” but when their prayer is answered negatively, or usually ignored, they say “well he did not want me to have this.” Let’s be honest, most prayer “answers” fall into the category of the status quo remaining. Regardless of what occurs you will ALWAYS say the prayer was answered.

You are right. What actually does occur is God’s will, and is for the best.

Reality is like that.

The Bible is full of promises and hope. Don’t you think it is time to use a more critical eye and wonder what is really going on? Over all these years and all the millions of Christians shouldn’t there be several cases of lost limbs or eyes being replaced?

What is “really going on” is that we are here in this world to learn to be as we should most best be.

What is our “being our most best us”? That is the question.

If one has no way to determine how to “best be us”, then what is the goal of learning to be that?

Your “mechanical God” ruling mechanically over a mechanical world is the wish of one tired of the frustrations of reality.

Why are you frustrated with reality? And are you REALLY sure you’d rather be a robot in a robot world?

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
They aren’t interested in truth, but only “what works”. Those are not the same thing.

The truth “works” for me, and from reading Dawkins I think it would work for him too. It is EVIDENCE and logic that shows what is true.

I actually very much agree with you here!

But the atheist refuses to do what he could do to get the evidence that he says he wants about the question of God, and then complains that he hasn’t gotten the evidence he says he wants!

That sounds like he really doesn’t want what he says he wants, and rather wants something more important to him than evidence of God.

I wonder what it is that he wants more than a thing that would place limits on his “ability to do ANYTHING he wants to do”?

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
I don’t do “convincing”! I do “informing”, as best as I’m informed, myself. When I’m wrong about something the Church says I’m RAPIDLY smacked down and dragged in for a good “re-education”, as it were.

I had 12 years of catholic “informing” in school and I still have doubts as you can see.

So, you’re going to not take responsibility for your own formation now that you know that those who were to have formed you did so very badly?

Catechesis is atrocious, on the whole. That’s why you’re here, supposedly.

So, are you interested in being more correctly informed, or are you simply interested in being mocking of those who could inform you?

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
The “scientistic materialist” worldview (religion) is that “We are borg!”.

I think that may be your perception of what some scientist are saying, but I have never heard any of them espouse this view. Where are you getting this from? As I have said in a prior post I have found many atheist to be quite moral and open to where ever the evidence leads.

I’m not specifying any particular scientist. I’m commenting on the religion of “scientistic materialism”, whose adherents I don’t personally track.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Again, if God could intervene to stop a leg from being cut why not grow back a leg that was amputated?

I know I am being repetitive, but it seems that you all have accepted a delineation line for what Cats and Dogs calls “counter-normal-mechanics-type miracles.” My Bible makes no such distinction.

Firstly, if you’re not interpreting what you read in your bible as you should do so according to the Church then you don’t know what your bible says about such distinctions.

If you DID understand what the deposit of faith, of which the bible is a part, had to say about miracles you’d understand that things are as they are because that is the way God wants it, for His reasons, and your “wants”, as regards wanting more miracles to “prove” that God is more likely, are something you really need to “get over”.

:shamrock2:

 

[Kuzushi]

Who are these “high moral atheists”?

I may as well ask who the high moral Catholics are. In the past I have corresponded on forums from Skeptic magazine and some branch atheist forums. Many of these people write about a strong moral sense of responsibility towards their fellow man. Hitchins comes across as a little arrogant, but Dawkins talks about concern for the welfare of children frequently.

But anything that IS moral is best expressed by Christianity (Catholic version)

Well, that’s your opinion. I am sure millions of Moslems, Buddhist, and Hindus would disagree.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

I may well ask who the high moral Catholics are

St. Maximilian Maria (who named himself Maria instead of Kolbe to venerate the Blessed Vrigin Mary) was a Polish Priest who hid two thousand Jews in his friary and when taken to the Auschwitz Concentration camp offered to die in place of another person because that person had family and he did not. He was starved and dehydrated but he continued to lead the men in songs and prayer. After three weeks of dehydration and starvation, only Kolbe and three others were still alive. Finally, he was murdered with an injection of carbolic acid. jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Kolbe.html. To the best of my knowledge, he not only was consecrated to the Blessed Virgin Mary in the way of St. Louis De Montfort, but he also used to post excerpts from True Devotion to Mary on billboards for people to read. He is a clear example of a highly moral Catholic. A Jewish website, not a Catholic website, calls him Righteous Among the Nations.

Mother Theresa is also highly moral according to most people.

Pope Piux XII also is reputed by some to have saved more than 860,000 thousand Jews during the Holocaust through the Catholic Church, more than all the international aid agencies put together. jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html

Furthermore, only the Roman Catholic Church, for doctrinal reasons, opposed the sterilization program of the Nazis completely during the Holocaust. Most German Protestant Christians accepted and often cooperated with the policy. holocaust-trc.org/hndcp.htm This solo opposition to forced sterilization during the Holocaust reminds me of how the Roman Catholic Church is the only church to oppose all three of: contraception, stem cell research, and abortion for doctrinal reasons now.

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Kuzushi]

You are right. What actually does occur is God’s will, and is for the best.

Reality is like that.

So in all of time and over billion ns of people it has never been God’s will to do an apparent miracle like grow back a leg or two? Hmmm…is that reality or is it failing to do critical thinking?

Your “mechanical God” ruling mechanically over a mechanical world is the wish of one tired of the frustrations of reality.

Why are you frustrated with reality? And are you REALLY sure you’d rather be a robot in a robot world?

The “mechanical” and “robot” world are your gross misstatements of mine and the atheist positions. However, it is true that math does not lie, and one would certainly expect that over all this time the severed limb re-growth would certainly have happened. As I have written before you will not even allow yourself to consider the possibility that something is amiss with Christian logic. Jesus did say “ask and you shall receive,” “if you know what to give your children how much more does your father in heaven know what you need.” etc. You spoke of reality earlier, but the reality is that real Christian life is not like it is portrayed in the Bible.

You and other Christians often reflect on this world in a negative way, yet I see s lot of hypocrisy in this area. Most parents still want their children to get into a good college. They fret over what this crazy market has done to their 401(k), etc. Face it you are a part of this world and you are often far from the “kingdom of heaven.” If that were not true how would you afford the computer you use to make these posts?

I am not saying there is anything wrong with loving life, (I sure do) but I often see Christians say they have their eyes on heaven and such when they are just as involved in this world as I and every other “greedy capitalist.”

 

[JMJ_coder]

So in all of time and over billion ns of people it has never been God’s will to do an apparent miracle like grow back a leg or two? Hmmm…is that reality or is it failing to do critical thinking?

Saint John Damascene had his severed hand restored to him.