Is faith a choice?

[Kuzushi]

But the atheist refuses to do what he could do to get the evidence that he says he wants about the question of God, and then complains that he hasn’t gotten the evidence he says he wants!

There you go again; grossly misrepresenting what someone else does or believes. Are you psychic? Have you done a Vulcan mind meld with atheist so you know what kind of self examination and contemplation they have done? You just assume that they are simple mindless automatons because they deny Christianity. That is just as bad as the atheist who say the Catholic Church is governed by a bunch of superstitious old men. Both of you are very wrong.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

That just means that the doctors’ conclusions are inconclusive

At 15, Maureen was diagnosed with a terminal illness called lymphedima. "This is a disease that does not respond to medication and does not go into remission. Within the next 10 years, Maureen had fifty operations and had lengthy confinements in the hospital of up to a year at a time.

Friends and relatives suggested she should pray and trust in God. But Maureen could not understand why God had allowed her to get this disease in the first place, and had lost her faith completely. Eventually her deteriorating condition would require the amputation of one leg.

One evening while Maureen was in the hospital her husband Bob watched a film on Divine Mercy and he became convinced of the healing powers of intercession by St. Faustina. Bob persuaded Maureen and the doctors that she should go to the tomb of St. Faustina in Poland. Together with her husband, son, and Fr. Seraphim Michalenko, they traveled to St. Faustina’s tomb at the Shrine of the Divine Mercy outside Krakow, Poland. They arrived in Poland on March 23, 1981 and Maureen went to confession for the first time since she was a young girl.

At the tomb, Maureen remembers saying "Okay, Faustina I came a long way, now do something. Innerly she heard Sr. Faustina say: “If you ask for my help, I will give it to you.” Suddenly she thought she was losing her mind. All the pain seemed to drain out of her leg, which was due to be amputated shortly, went back to its normal size. When she returned to the USA she was examined by five independent doctors who came to the conclusion she was independently healed. They had no medical explanation for the sudden healing of this incurable disease.

The accumulated evidence of this miracle was examined in consultation by five doctors appointed by the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of Saints. Having passed this test it was examined by a team of theologians, and finally by a team of cardinals and bishops. The cure was accepted by all as a miracle caused by Sr. Faustina’s intercession to the Divine Mercy. Sr. Faustina was beautified on April 18, 1993."

holocaust-trc.org/hndcp.htm

Please help me to understand your meaning on inconclusivity. Please keep me in your prayers. Thank you!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Kuzushi]

now that you know that those who were to have formed you did so very badly?

Catechesis is atrocious, on the whole.

You again do not have enough information to make that assessment. Over the years I have attended classes by some well educated and deeply committed Dominican sisters and priests. I think you have to learn that your uninformed and incomplete OPINION does not equal fact.

So, are you interested in being more correctly informed, or are you simply interested in being mocking of those who could inform you?

Uh…given your propensity to think you know what you can’t possibly know I think I will pass thank you.

I have made every effort to be thankful and respectful to ALL posters. Please give me an example of where I have “mocked” anyone.

 

[Kuzushi]

• Please help me to understand your meaning on inconclusivity. Please keep me in your prayers. Thank you! *

It is hard to tell from the article as to who did and said what. Did the DOCTORS say this was a medical miracle or the theologians? Disease does go in to remission occasionally.

However, the point I go back to is that these things are always a shrinking of some internal tumor or a remission of a rare disease. Either miracles happen of they do not. If God can and is performing miracles for us on earth we should see thousands of people who have had missing limbs, eyes, ears, etc. suddenly restored.

 

[Kuzushi]

If you DID understand what the deposit of faith, of which the bible is a part, had to say about miracles you’d understand that things are as they are because that is the way God wants it, for His reasons, and your “wants”, as regards wanting more miracles to “prove” that God is more likely, are something you really need to “get over”.

But that does not answer the question. Your giving the default safe answer of “well God knows best so he ahs his reasons.” I know your faith may prohibit you from thinking outside the Christian box, but try to objectively see this using logic. It is not that I “want” the miracles. It is simple statistics that by now more apparent miracles would have happened. Go look in the prayer request section and you will see people praying for everything from cures for cancer to their loved ones, finding a mate, getting jobs, and help with academic tests. If these people get any of these things they give God credit. Can’t you see that even from the Christian perspective God may have had nothing to do with some of these things coming to pass?

If you concede that God intervened any time in anyone’s life than that is a miracle. Therefore, logic would show that we should see SOME major apparent miracles too.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

From the other article, we learn that Maureen didn’t even want to go! Bob said, he received a “collect call” from God to bring his family Massachusetts to Poland so that God’s mercy could then burst forth throughout the world through Sister Faustina. And as a favor for making that trip, God would heal not one but both Maureen and Bobby. So, he invited Fr. Seraphim, “We want you to witness this miracle.” Both Maureen and Fr. Seraphim’s jaws dropped. Father Seraphim was intrigued. Marueen was alarmed. Maureen thought, “Oh my Good Lord! My Rock of Gilbratrar is crumbling! Bob’s becoming a religious nut. He was the only solid one, and now he’s falling apart!”

With permission secured from his Provincial, Father Seraphim was willing to go. With permission secured from her doctors, Maureen was, too. Actually, she didn’t want to go. She finally agreed, for the sake of her marriage. They landed March 23, 1981. The miracle happened at 9:00 night on the ninth-day of a novena of prayers in which they asked for healing. Father Seraphim suggested they pray the chaplet of Divine Mercy for healing. Maureen thought, "Ah, healing–whatever. This is something you read about in the Bible. It doesn’t* really * happen. But I’ll go in and go through with it just to make them happy. Inwardly, she heard Sister Faustina say, “If you ask for my help, I will give it to you.” Maureen responded, “Okay, Faustina, you dragged me to this country so far from home, if you are going to do something, do it now!” That’s when it all happened. She didn’t believe it was a healing - she thought it was a nervous breakdown - but three or four days later, she accepted it was a healing.
thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3212

books.google.com/books?id=NORyG_JzRBwC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=maureen+digan&source=bl&ots=EErIDbmBDr&sig=hMdCs8FbSX1gIsLNlOkIsC2yMMk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA159,M1

Maureen had a complete healing. When she returned to the United States, five independent doctors examined her, and she was completely healed with no medical explanation for why. Bobby had an incomplete healing. He knew when he would die 10 years later and let his family know between what months. He had the nurse give his mother flowers for her birthday, insisting that they would never die, and they have not. Four flowers that will never die still hang on Maureen’s bedroom wall. Bobby would recite one simple prayer, *"Mary I give my heart to you * Maureen Digan is open for contact for further questions.

As time passed, it became clear that Maureen’s healing fit the description for “miraculous.” There are three characteristics: (1) instantaneous, (2) complete and lasting, (3) attributable to a particular saint.

They waited until March 7, 1992 to name Sister Faustina as “Venerable” Servant of God, even though the miracle was in 1981.

Please continue to keep me in your prayers. Thank you so much!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[JMJ_coder]

If these people get any of these things they give God credit. Can’t you see that even from the Christian perspective God may have had nothing to do with some of these things coming to pass?

Every good has its source in God.

If you concede that God intervened any time in anyone’s life than that is a miracle. Therefore, logic would show that we should see SOME major apparent miracles too.

What kind of miracles are you looking for? Limbs have been restored (see Saint John Damascene), the blind’s sight has been restored and the lame made to walk. Just read the testimonies from Lourdes, for one example, to see how many miracles have occurred. Every Saint for the last several hundred years has at least two miracles associated with him/her. If you look at the process today, the Vatican employs a host of doctors and scientists when discerning the veracity of miraculous claims.

 

[Michael_David]

Do miracles have to be physical in nature to be valid? Like sight to one blind; or diseases cured; or the wheel chair bound able to walk?

There are many miracles happening daily on the mental level: turning from a suicidal path; reformed criminal behavior; suddenly having feelings where there were none; getting one’s morals/conscience where it didn’t exist; waking from a spiritual coma; even a convert is a miracle on the being level.

How are these being accomplished? Perhaps with a lot of Faith and prayers of those afflicted, even perhaps prayers toward some Saint… but mostly they are accomplished by people of God working His will in the here-and-now (whether professional or not); the Present-Day Saints-to-be.

These are the one’s that know that God Can and Will if He is called upon with Faith to heal the person. It is more a matter of the one wanting to be healed having Faith, then in Gods ability to do it.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
But anything that IS moral is best expressed by Christianity (Catholic version)

Well, that’s your opinion. I am sure millions of Moslems, Buddhist, and Hindus would disagree.

And do you change your opinions about the truth due to “peer pressure”?

The truth is the truth. Truth is not a matter for voting on. To consider truth as “changeable” is called relativism.

Are you a relativist?

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
You are right. What actually does occur is God’s will, and is for the best.

Reality is like that.

So in all of time and over billion ns of people it has never been God’s will to do an apparent miracle like grow back a leg or two?

Hmmm…is that reality or is it failing to do critical thinking?

Have you personally witnessed all of time and all the billions of people ever to have lived?

How do you know that has never happened once, or three times?

There have been saints who have supposedly had HEADS reattach after decapitation (St. Winifred/Winefride for example). Would that qualify?

Now, are we obliged to believe these miracles? No.

But once again, you demand that reality conform to you, and not you to reality. You demand that God distribute His miracles “more evenly” so that you (personally) can believe in Him, but if He doesn’t bow to your wishes you will refuse to believe in Him.

But, even more, since you have very good reason to not believe in God, you won’t do so regardless of what is presented to you.

In fact, your demand for the outrageous is really a prayer to be shown “dryness”, which is what is most wise to have you experience, which is precisely what God is giving you.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
Your “mechanical God” ruling mechanically over a mechanical world is the wish of one tired of the frustrations of reality.

Why are you frustrated with reality? And are you REALLY sure you’d rather be a robot in a robot world?

The “mechanical” and “robot” world are your gross misstatements of mine and the atheist positions.

However, it is true that math does not lie, and one would certainly expect that over all this time the severed limb re-growth would certainly have happened.

As I have written before you will not even allow yourself to consider the possibility that something is amiss with Christian logic.

Jesus did say “ask and you shall receive,” “if you know what to give your children how much more does your father in heaven know what you need.” etc. You spoke of reality earlier, but the reality is that real Christian life is not like it is portrayed in the Bible.

God gives us what we need, and that is only what we WANT if what we want is what we need.

You can’t tell “wants” from “needs” because you will not listen to any authority but yourself in regards to which is which.

Face it you are a part of this world and you are often far from the “kingdom of heaven.”

The atheist wants to create, via human so-called “wisdom”, a heaven on earth. Catholics know where heaven is, and it is not compatible with this earth, though we are to act as the citizens of that kingdom here on earth.

What atheists want for earthly life is what Catholics call “slavery” due to unGodly tyranny.

Where atheists have “borrowed” correct moral/ethical principles from God’s People, they are indeed Godly, but where they haven’t they are demonic and will for the slavery of mankind to their errors (which will eventually devour them as well as those they persecute for being inerrant).

I am not saying there is anything wrong with loving life, (I sure do) but I often see Christians say they have their eyes on heaven and such when they are just as involved in this world as I and every other “greedy capitalist.”

It’s not a sin to be involved in the world, but to sin while doing so is, well, SINFUL!

Catholics are not puritans. We live IN the world but are not (citizens) OF the world.

Those who sin, sin, and are unGodly by being so regardless of whether they are Catholics, atheists, or elsewhat.

But atheists are constitutionally unGodly, and must be dealt with with that in mind.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
now that you know that those who were to have formed you did so very badly?

Catechesis is atrocious, on the whole.

You again do not have enough information to make that assessment. Over the years I have attended classes by some well educated and deeply committed Dominican sisters and priests. I think you have to learn that your uninformed and incomplete OPINION does not equal fact.

The fact is that you were ill-formed as a Catholic because you are demonstrably anti-Catholic.

To have been (notice the tense) a well formed Catholic is to remain a well formed Catholic.

One can’t be both anti-Catholic and a “well formed Catholic” at the same time.

Pick one! Which is it?

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
So, are you interested in being more correctly informed, or are you simply interested in being mocking of those who could inform you?

I have made every effort to be thankful and respectful to ALL posters. Please give me an example of where I have “mocked” anyone.

You are very sensible and respectful indeed!

As to your “thankfulness”, that one I’m not so sure about, but only because I don’t think being “thankful” is particularly important in this type of venue, though, being gracious at the reception of knowledge SOUNDS like a good idea.

Anyway, by “mocking” I mean purposefully not coming to an agreement to disagree on some thing that is at impasse, and then re-presenting an argument to “support” (or assert) what should be known to be at impasse.

In other words, you say,
“There should be more limb-regrowth miracles.”
…then I say,
“God gives miracles as they are most wisely given.”,
…then you say,
“Shouldn’t Christians be more critically-thinking about reality?”,
…then I say,
“God’s will is reality.”,
…then you say,
“Why aren’t there more limb-regrowth miracles?”,
…then I say,
“Are you mocking me?”.

OK. I have stretched the meaning of the word “mocking” a bit far, but in my (obviously never humble) opinion those who come here (to these fori) not to learn but rather to dissuade Catholics from being Catholics are de facto “mocking” Catholics.

Now, since that definition of “mocking” is obviously overwrought, I shall not be using it in the future. (In other words, YOU WIN!) <chuckle, chuckle, chuckle!>

I do appreciate your “devil’s advocate”-ness, and your intelligent (if incorrect) conversation, and am looking forward to hearing more from you around here!

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
If you DID understand what the deposit of faith, of which the bible is a part, had to say about miracles you’d understand that things are as they are because that is the way God wants it, for His reasons, and your “wants”, as regards wanting more miracles to “prove” that God is more likely, are something you really need to “get over”.

But that does not answer the question. Your giving the default safe answer of “well God knows best so he ahs his reasons.” I know your faith may prohibit you from thinking outside the Christian box,…

“Christian box”! “Christian box”? There’s that MOCKING, again!

…just kidding…

but try to objectively see this using logic. It is not that I “want” the miracles. It is simple statistics that by now more apparent miracles would have happened. Go look in the prayer request section and you will see people praying for everything from cures for cancer to their loved ones, finding a mate, getting jobs, and help with academic tests.

If these people get any of these things they give God credit. Can’t you see that even from the Christian perspective God may have had nothing to do with some of these things coming to pass?

That you don’t understand the Catholic axiom that God gives us only what is best for us, and that we humans have quite the propensity to ask for things which are not for our best good, mostly because we don’t have God’s “perspective” and can’t possibly know what that “best good” is, is your basic misconception in this matter.

If you concede that God intervened any time in anyone’s life than that is a miracle. Therefore, logic would show that we should see SOME major apparent miracles too.

Logic tells me that, because God only does what is best for us, that that which doesn’t actually happen (ie wished-for not-yet-reality) is what SHOULDN’T happen, because it’s not for our best good, and part of that “not best good” are these, as you describe them, “major apparent miracles” which you apparently want to happen as proof of God’s existence.

Because you are an atheist, at least in so much as believing in God qua God, and don’t understand why God’s will is for the best and is reality, because you have a very good reason to not even want to believe that truth, your continual requirement that God prove Himself to you (personally or at least “scientifically verifiably” to your satisfaction) will persist, and sensibly so!

I agree with you that your beliefs, your religion, demands that belief in God (qua God) requires what you’ve said it requires, but the reason that your religion requires what it requires is because it is incorrect in it’s axiomatic principles.

But, we can certainly agree that we’re both right to ourselves and we’re both seriously incorrect to the other.

:shamrock2:

 

[Kuzushi]

The truth is the truth. Truth is not a matter for voting on. To consider truth as “changeable” is called relativism.
Are you a relativist?

Not at all, I just think neither you nor I know it all.

Have you personally witnessed all of time and all the billions of people ever to have lived?

How do you know that has never happened once, or three times?

How do you know it has? If this kind of thing happened today (and there is no logical reason is should not) the event would make headlines and the person would be booked on Oprah. We would all know about it. Don’t you think it is suspicious that the stories of healings are always long ago and or deal with vague illnesses or pains? How come there are never any witnesses?

Logic tells me that, because God only does what is best for us, that that which doesn’t actually happen (ie wished-for not-yet-reality) is what SHOULDN’T happen, because it’s not for our best good, and part of that “not best good” are these, as you describe them, “major apparent miracles” which you apparently want to happen as proof of God’s existence.

In other words, you say,
“There should be more limb-regrowth miracles.”
…then I say,
“God gives miracles as they are most wisely given.”,
…then you say,
“Shouldn’t Christians be more critically-thinking about reality?”,
…then I say,
“God’s will is reality.”,

That you don’t understand the Catholic axiom that God gives us only what is best for us, and that we humans have quite the propensity to ask for things which are not for our best good, mostly because we don’t have God’s “perspective” and can’t possibly know what that “best good” is, is your basic misconception in this matter.

But once again, you demand that reality conform to you, and not you to reality. You demand that God distribute His miracles “more evenly” so that you (personally) can believe in Him, but if He doesn’t bow to your wishes you will refuse to believe in Him.

I demand nothing. Why do you keep insisting that this is my strategy? Again you are making judgments not supported by the data. I am only saying that if God is indeed in the miracle business for other things one would logically expect that apparent miracles like the ones I have been discussing would naturally occur. Instead of looking at a belief system, i.e. Christianity, and seeking data to support that theory I am looking at the data and drawing logical conclusions.

Finally, what makes you think I do not believe in God?

In fact, your demand for the outrageous is really a prayer to be shown “dryness”, which is what is most wise to have you experience, which is precisely what God is giving you.

Again, slow down, go have some decaf and reread what I have written. I am NOT demanding anything, and I am not stating anything outrageous. I am merely pointing out a logical discrepancy in Christian belief.

You can’t tell “wants” from “needs” because you will not listen to any authority but yourself in regards to which is which.

Let me guess…YOU are an authority and I should listen to you right?

The atheist wants to create, via human so-called “wisdom”, a heaven on earth.

Which atheist? Who? This is your erroneous interpretation of atheism.

Where atheists have “borrowed” correct moral/ethical principles from God’s People, they are indeed Godly, but where they haven’t they are demonic

How can they be demonic when they do not believe in God or Satan? Morality and ethics have been around LONG before Christianity came on the scene, so if anything it is Christianity that did the borrowing. I think your understanding of history and the order of things is both mixed up and upside down.

It’s not a sin to be involved in the world, but to sin while doing so is, well, SINFUL!

Catholics are not puritans. We live IN the world but are not (citizens) OF the world.

Okay, I agree with that. When you are not condemning atheist to Hades you seem like a fairly stable guy.

The fact is that you were ill-formed as a Catholic because you are demonstrably anti-Catholic.

To have been (notice the tense) a well formed Catholic is to remain a well formed Catholic.

I think the Baptist call that “eternal security” and I know that is not a Catholic doctrine. I think you are on the verge of starting your own religion here. How can I be “anti-Catholic when I am indeed Catholic? Are you saying that because I am pointing out what I see as some logical inconsistencies I am now some kind of heretic? I am glad we are not in the old times or else you would have me burned at the stake. Can’t you see that your attitude is exactly what atheist and those from other religions say is wrong with Christians?

I do appreciate your “devil’s advocate”-ness, and your intelligent (if incorrect) conversation, and am looking forward to hearing more from you around here!

Me too, but I think we probably have reached an impasse on this topic. I only put this out there wondering if someone else wondered about this.

 

[JMJ_coder]

How do you know it has? If this kind of thing happened today (and there is no logical reason is should not) the event would make headlines and the person would be booked on Oprah. We would all know about it. Don’t you think it is suspicious that the stories of healings are always long ago and or deal with vague illnesses or pains? How come there are never any witnesses?

This does happen today. Aside from the countless ‘little’ miracles that happen everyday, which most people probably discount as chance or luck or don’t even pay it any heed. People still experience healings at Lourdes. There is a shrine in my area where people have left their crutches and leg braces as a testimony of their healing attributed to the Blessed Mother. Less than 100 years ago, the great miracle of Fatima - I don’t think it made any headlines outside of Portugal or Spain - yet it was attested to by over 70,000 witnesses, many of whom were atheists and others who came to discredit the miracle, either sent by the government or who came on their own to mock. They all testified to the miracle.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
The truth is the truth. Truth is not a matter for voting on. To consider truth as “changeable” is called relativism.

Are you a relativist?

Not at all, I just think neither you nor I know it all.

I certainly don’t claim to “know it all” (athough I am a notorious “know-it-all” ).

But to know that truth is truth, and not “truthiness”, and that the Church is only capable of giving us actual truth as proclaimed dogma, is what it is to be Catholic.

One can choose to not be Catholic, just as one can choose to be Catholic, but one cannot choose to change what being Catholic means to remain, or become, “Catholic”, as the Church is not a “social club”.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
Have you personally witnessed all of time and all the billions of people ever to have lived?

How do you know that has never happened once, or three times?

How do you know it has? If this kind of thing happened today (and there is no logical reason is should not) the event would make headlines and the person would be booked on Oprah.

Why SHOULD it happen? There obviously IS a logical reason that “this kind of thing” doesn’t happen much, if at all, these days, and most likely it’s because it would prematurely “stir the pot” and introduce too much “noise” into our observations/formulations of the consequences of sin that we’ve gone through.

The teacher doesn’t scramble the meanings of the letters of the alphabet and the numbers just before giving a test on reading and arithmetic.

We would all know about it. Don’t you think it is suspicious that the stories of healings are always long ago and or deal with vague illnesses or pains? How come there are never any witnesses?

There are always witnesses, otherwise how would we know about the occurrence?

I don’t find it suspicious at all that God would NOT give us what we don’t need, which is that we need FAITH and not PROOF.

Those who seek proof of God can get it, if they do as they have been directed to do, but they will never, ever, get it if they do otherwise, as the TEST is to do as we are supposed to do and not as we simply “would like” to do.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
But once again, you demand that reality conform to you, and not you to reality. You demand that God distribute His miracles “more evenly” so that you (personally) can believe in Him, but if He doesn’t bow to your wishes you will refuse to believe in Him.

I demand nothing. Why do you keep insisting that this is my strategy? Again you are making judgments not supported by the data.

You want (demand) that God prove Himself (to you) by more “evenly distributing” His miracles. That He won’t do this you see as some “disproof” of God.

That is your demand.

I am only saying that if God is indeed in the miracle business for other things one would logically expect that apparent miracles like the ones I have been discussing would naturally occur.
**
Instead of looking at a belief system, i.e. Christianity, and seeking data to support that theory I am looking at the data and drawing logical conclusions.**

This is extremely important, and is the single greatest error that the “lukewarm” commit, though it isn’t so much a volitional act as a habitual one.

Religion, especially true religion (that of the Church [Catholic]), requires that we first faithfully believe in hope of a good so as to GET proof, and not hope for proof so that we can get belief in faith.

The so-called “data” that you are looking at is not the right data for the question you are trying to answer. The “data” that you are looking at are hints as to what you should have hope for, and hints as to why you should find the appropriate data that actually does give proof of God.

The saints give us hints about what we should hope for. Those hopes give us motivation to want to become “saintly” at least enough to be given some proof of that which we now are hoping.

Finally, what makes you think I do not believe in God?

Because you think God needs to be proven to you before you’ll believe in Him as He can only (fruitfully) be believed in.

No one who knows God as God can do anything BUT believe in Him as He is, and to not believe in Him as He is, as God qua God, is to not believe in Him, but some “mask” of Him.

Those who believe in Him as He is don’t need “more sensible distributions of miracles”.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
You can’t tell “wants” from “needs” because you will not listen to any authority but yourself in regards to which is which.

Let me guess…YOU are an authority and I should listen to you right?

Uh, no. The Church is the only authority in this matter.

Would you care to listen to the Church in why it is that things are as they are?

(( Secret answer: They are as they are because it is God’s will that they be as they are. ))

:shamrock2: