Is faith a work?--An apparent point of disagreement between Catholics and WELS Lutherans

[Pitcharan]

The newbie is correct, and not irresponsible. Faith is a component of our human constitution.

When the Jews said that the Messiah cannot come from Nazareth, they were correct. But using this fact to reject Jesus was (i) wrong, because it had also been prophesied that the Messiah will be called a “Nazarene” and (ii)irresponsible, because they did not care to find out if “Jesus of Nazareth” was really born in Nazareth or Bethlehem.

When we place our faith in God, it meets with Grace, resulting in salvation. Our faith is perfected through our works. When we exercise our faith, it increases, like a muscle. Faith also comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Our faith is built up by the Word, and by the exercise of it. We can build ourselves up on our faith. Faith can be fanned into flame, and it can be lost, or misplaced.

All these statements do not adress the subject of debate in any way. If your purpose is to flaunt your understanding, then you might as well start a thread for that. If you want to oppose my view that “faith” is earned through “humility”, then be specific

 

[Newbie2]

Ok fine I am sorry for that reaction. First let me explain my reaction and then my post. When you responded by stating that Catholic Theology does not teach what I wrote, it reminded me of the Jews who rejected Jesus saying that nothing good can come from Nazareth / Galilee. I felt that you did not care to consider my view on merit, but were rejecting it by merely saying that CC never tatught this. Once again, I clarify that you were right in saying that CC did not teach what I said.

I don’t think it is inconsistent with Catholic Theology and I invite you to read my posts # 2, 11 & 23 on this thread and then specify what is contrary if any

I’m still a little confused by you saying " Once again, I clarify that you were right in saying that CC did not teach what I said" and “I don’t think it (what you said) is inconsistent with Catholic Theology”.

I see a conflict here. To me, “Catholic Theology” is the same as “what the CC teaches”. I’m not sure if you’re saying that the Catholic Church teaches or does not teach that we can earn our faith.

 

[guanophore]

All these statements do not adress the subject of debate in any way. If your purpose is to flaunt your understanding, then you might as well start a thread for that. If you want to oppose my view that “faith” is earned through “humility”, then be specific

No, I am not interested in opposing this view. I don’t like the term “earned” because it is misleading to our separated brethren. However, in principle, we are not in disagreement.

James 4:10 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall exalt you.

1 Peter 5:6 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time;

James 4:6 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore (the scripture) saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.

I think where we differ might be that I think being humble is also a work of grace. We must cooperate with His grace, so that humility (a fruit of the spirit) can be formed in us.

However, fruit does not grow by “working” itself ripe. An apple does not become fully formed by “working” in any way. It clings to the branch/vine, and in this clinging, it has access to that which brings the growth.

 

[JonNC]

=Pitcharan;7151511]As you claim, if** we cannot come to faith of our own will or actions**, then all that was commanded of us to believe or put our faith in God, becomes meaningless.
“Put our faith” implies that we have received it already. Can we reject faith? Of course.
But we cannot earn it, or work for it, etc. Faith is a gift of grace. To believe that one can come to saving faith by our own actions, without grace, is pelagianism.

I quote below some verses where we are commanded to believe (have faith):

*When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they **did not believe ***

it. Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either. Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Matt16:11-16)

Why did He rebuke them? Because faith was offered to them, and they stubbornly refused it.

…that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

. (John 3:15-16)
Where does that faith come from? Grace.

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

(John6:29)
I have not claimed that we shouldn’t grow in grace, only that we cannot come to it of our own actions, without Grace.

And here is a verse which tells us a cause for unbelief (lack of faith):
How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God ?

(John 5:44)

Again, implied here is that by Grace, faith is already made available.

Perhaps, we are talking past one another. Earlier, gounophore referenced the Joint Declaration, which says here, in part:

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God’s saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.

18.Therefore the doctrine of justification, which takes up this message and explicates it, is more than just one part of Christian doctrine. It stands in an essential relation to all truths of faith, which are to be seen as internally related to each other. It is an indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ. When Lutherans emphasize the unique significance of this criterion, they do not deny the interrelation and significance of all truths of faith. When Catholics see themselves as bound by several criteria, they do not deny the special function of the message of justification. Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5f) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts.

“All people are **called by God **to salvation in Christ.”

Jon

 

[guanophore]

“Put our faith” implies that we have received it already. Can we reject faith? Of course.
But we cannot earn it, or work for it, etc. Faith is a gift of grace. To believe that one can come to saving faith by our own actions, without grace, is pelagianism.

Why did He rebuke them? Because faith was offered to them, and they stubbornly refused it.

Where does that faith come from? Grace.

I have not claimed that we shouldn’t grow in grace, only that we cannot come to it of our own actions, without Grace.

Again, implied here is that by Grace, faith is already made available.

Perhaps, we are talking past one another. Earlier, gounophore referenced the Joint Declaration, which says here, in part:

“All people are **called by God **to salvation in Christ.”

Jon

Thanks for bringing this Jon. I cherish the fact that we agree on so much. Sometimes, unity seems but a breath away.

 

[Pitcharan]

I’m still a little confused by you saying " Once again, I clarify that you were right in saying that CC did not teach what I said" and “I don’t think it (what you said) is inconsistent with Catholic Theology”.

I see a conflict here. To me, “Catholic Theology” is the same as “what the CC teaches”. I’m not sure if you’re saying that the Catholic Church teaches or does not teach that we can earn our faith.

Yes “CT” and “CC teaching” are one and the same. I am only saying that though the CC does not teach exactly what I said, the teachings of the CC and what I am saying are in no way inconsistent. If you think so, then specify what the CC teaches and explain how my view is inconsistent with the CC teaching

 

[Pitcharan]

No, I am not interested in opposing this view. I don’t like the term “earned” because it is misleading to our separated brethren. However, in principle, we are not in disagreement.

Thank you for your patience and tolerance. Now let us have a peaceful truth seeking dialogue sans pre-conceptions. The reason why I disagree that “faith” is a gift, is beacuse we are commanded by God to believe (have faith); so obviously it is something to be worked for and gained. Throughout the Gospels, we come across examples of great faith displayed by “humble” gentiles (the Centurion, the Canaanite woman, …) and the very manner in which they are portrayed is a teaching for us to gain faith through humility. The contrary examples of unbelieving Jews, teaches that we can lose faith if we are proud. Finally consider Luke 17:5-10. Our Lord reveals that “humility” is the key to gaining faith. I invite you to please take a look at my posts # 2, 11, 23, 59 & 68 on this thread

 

[Pitcharan]

To believe that one can come to saving faith by our own actions, without grace, is pelagianism.

Never have I suggested that we can earn faith through actions done without grace. I stand by what I said and calrify further by defining “faith” and “grace” and I think that you are using these terms without having a definition.

1. Faith is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; the vision is a reward of humility. Thus faith is earned through humility. On the other hand, pride renders a person spiritually blind and he/she cannot believe even when there is great tangible evidence, as in the case of some Jews who rejected Jesus despite great miracles.
2. Grace is the ability to abide in God’s way and keep His commandments. We receive Grace from God as a reward for gratitude. Adam and Eve felt no gratitude for all the bounties received and hence had no Grace to keep His single command. Many Israelites in the Desrert of Sin, were ungrateful even after being rescued from cruel slavery and provided with water, manna and quails in the wilderness. That is why they had no Grace to keep God’s command and perished in their sins.

 

[Newbie2]

Yes “CT” and “CC teaching” are one and the same. I am only saying that though the CC does not teach exactly what I said, the teachings of the CC and what I am saying are in no way inconsistent. If you think so, then specify what the CC teaches and explain how my view is inconsistent with the CC teaching

I don’t need to, you already have. You clearly state that your and the CC’s teachings differ.

Unless you and I have a different definition of “inconsistant”. To me, inconsistant in this case is the equivalent of “(do) not teach exactly what I said”.

So, your admission that your thoughts differ from the CC’s teachings is the end of the story for me.

 

[JonNC]

=Pitcharan;7154728]Never have I suggested that we can earn faith through actions done without grace. I stand by what I said and calrify further by defining “faith” and “grace” and I think that you are using these terms without having a definition.

1. Faith is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; the vision is a reward of humility. Thus faith is earned through humility. On the other hand, pride renders a person spiritually blind and he/she cannot believe even when there is great tangible evidence, as in the case of some Jews who rejected Jesus despite great miracles.
   I don’t think I lack a definition, but I certainly reject the idea that we come to faith by earning. Faith is a gift of grace.

2. Grace is the ability to abide in God’s way and keep His commandments. We receive Grace from God as a reward for gratitude. Adam and Eve felt no gratitude for all the bounties received and hence had no Grace to keep His single command. Many Israelites in the Desrert of Sin, were ungrateful even after being rescued from cruel slavery and provided with water, manna and quails in the wilderness. That is why they had no Grace to keep God’s command and perished in their sins.

And grace is a free gift.

How we respond is what I believe you are taling about. As I said, I believe we are talking past each other. It may be a result of our Traditions.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Thanks for bringing this Jon. I cherish the fact that we agree on so much. Sometimes, unity seems but a breath away.

I, too, cherish this fact. As usual, I appreciate your charity.

Jon

 

[Pitcharan]

I don’t need to, you already have. You clearly state that your and the CC’s teachings differ.

Unless you and I have a different definition of “inconsistant”. To me, inconsistant in this case is the equivalent of “(do) not teach exactly what I said”.

So, your admission that your thoughts differ from the CC’s teachings is the end of the story for me.

You expose your shallowness and lack of spiritual instinct. You could find no fault and simply rejected a view saying that CC never taught it. Be informed that leading CC theologians and philosophers found the same views very meaningful and excellent and enabled its publication with due approval. Even if you found nothing meaningful you would have done better not to have responded at all

 

[Pitcharan]

I don’t think I lack a definition, but I certainly reject the idea that we come to faith by earning. Faith is a gift of grace.

And grace is a free gift.

How we respond is what I believe you are taling about. As I said, I believe we are talking past each other. It may be a result of our Traditions.

Jon

Though you have chosen to politely agree to disagree, yet I invite you to revisit my posts #2, 11, 23, 59 & 68. May I also know your definition of faith and grace

 

[JonNC]

Though you have chosen to politely agree to disagree, yet I invite you to revisit my posts #2, 11, 23, 59 & 68. May I also know your definition of faith and grace

Grace:
lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=G&word=GRACE

Faith:
lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=F&word=FAITH.JUSTIFYING

Hope that helps,
Jon

 

[Pitcharan]

Grace:
lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=G&word=GRACE

Faith:
lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=F&word=FAITH.JUSTIFYING

Hope that helps,
Jon

Thank you Jon for the kind response. I see scope for convergence and shall revert when I am close to it

 

[JonNC]

Thank you Jon for the kind response. I see scope for convergence and shall revert when I am close to it

I see scope for convergence, too, which to me, is far more valuable than conversion or reversion. I don’t look of the day when Lutherans all receive His body and blood at Catholic altars, or Catholics all receive at Lutheran altars. I look for the day which we each can receive at both altars - as I believe Christ wants it.

Jon