Is Faith Alone inherently Evil

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heisenburg

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Simple question…

Is Faith Alone inherently evil…

Reason for this statement. As asked in a differant thread.

If a someone walks by a homelessman on the street asking him for something to eat and passes him by, did this person commit a sin?

The answer would be yes.

Therein lies the crux of the issue…

If we are saved by faith alone, helping this man is not required. It is not realy even asked of us. However, by not helping him, and thus staying within the confines of faith alone, you have committed a sin.

This results in a theology, that if to be beleived, that god created, that is not perfect.

God Hates sin, why would he have an ‘edict’ that says all you have to do is truely beleive. Its nice if you do, but you do not have to help anyone, but if you dont, i will still impose sin upon you.

If we are to follow Faith alone, this is exactly what will happen.
Why would god have a theology that will CAUSE sin.

Common Response:
If you love god, you will do those things.

However, based on faith alone, I dont have to. Doing is not a requirement. I could never do ANYTHING listed in the bible, but only beleive, and based on Faith Alone still be saved.

Second Common response:
Well, Faith doesnt mean in the bible what it means in the dictionary. The Dictiobary says faith means to believe in something that cannot be proven, The bible says faith means you are physically, spiritualy, and mentally converted. You will do, not because you choose to, but because your very nature makes you. This is what faith means

Two problems:
  1. The Bible DOES agree with the dictionary. The bible says faith is the hope for things not yet seen. This is the same thing as believing in something that cannot be proven. So, saying that the meaning of faith is differant is a twisting of words
  2. If Faith DOES mean what is commonly held by faith aloners. The ONLY way i can know it is if someone tells me. I cannot read the bible and get that. It is a secret that I msut be told. This is gnostocism. Hopefully, all christians of all denomontations acknowledge that Gnostocism is heretical.
When you read the bible, everywhere the word faith appears, you can replace it with ‘belief in something that cannot be proven’ and still get the same meaning if faith is simply the assertion that ‘I believe’

Example:
James: see how we are saved by works and not by faith alone…
Modified
James: See how we are saved by works and not by a belief in soemthing that cannot be proven alone

Telling me that God says we are only to beleive and don’t ever ever ever have to DO anything, as this is ultimatly the result of faith alone, sounds to me more like a trick the devil would use to distract us from God.

‘Come On, God doesnt care if you do anything… see, he jsut wants you to beleive… dont worry about that bum on the street… Walk on by… God doesnt care…’

Therefore… is Faith Alone inherently Evil?

In Christ
 
In the example that you listed, faith alone WOULD be inherently evil. However, due to how the world works, some may not stop for the homeless person for fear that he might not really be homeless and have a gun or something and is just waiting for someone to stop to rob him/her or something. It’d be the same as not stopping for a motorist stranded on the side of the road. As a female, I never help people for fear of getting hurt myself.
Just because you didn’t stop, doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. You might be doing it out of safety for yourself.
Hence, Catholics believe we are saved by faith AND good works. It doesn’t specify what those good works are and not stopping for a homeless man or a stranded motorist is NOT a sin if you are doing it out of fear of your safety.
 
My Appologies… and I guess under your discription i would need to look a little deeper to see ramifications…

However… the logic in my example would be someone that doesnt help because for what ever reason, they dont want to, not because of fear of being attacked…

Anyway… maybe i should have worded it like this…

If a man is walking down the road and sees someone asking for food, but refuses to for any other reason other than saftey issues, is it a sin

THank you though for ensuring i clarify…

In Christ
 
heisenburg said:
My Appologies… and I guess under your discription i would need to look a little deeper to see ramifications…

However… the logic in my example would be someone that doesnt help because for what ever reason, they dont want to, not because of fear of being attacked…

Anyway… maybe i should have worded it like this…

If a man is walking down the road and sees someone asking for food, but refuses to for any other reason other than saftey issues, is it a sin

THank you though for ensuring i clarify…

In Christ
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If the individual in question has the means to help the one asking for food and deliberately doesn’t, then he’s being uncharitable and I’m sure it’s a sin but only a venial one. If that individual were to go to Confession or Communion, he would be forgiven, as it’s not a serious sin.
So, in that instance, faith alone is NOT inherently evil, as it is not a grave matter. It was a personal choice of the individual NOT to assist the one in need. I know it’s scriptural to help out your neighbor and Jesus Himself said to so ignore the person in need is to ignore Christ (assuming that the situation and circumstances are legit and there’s no danger in assisting) and is a sin.
 
heisenburg said:
Simple question…

Telling me that God says we are only to beleive and don’t ever ever ever have to DO anything, as this is ultimatly the result of faith alone, sounds to me more like a trick the devil would use to distract us from God.

‘Come On, God doesnt care if you do anything… see, he jsut wants you to beleive… dont worry about that bum on the street… Walk on by… God doesnt care…’

Therefore… is Faith Alone inherently Evil?

In Christ
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That’s the snag with “by faith alone”. People say self-righteously “we certainly don’t give charity in order to get to heaven”. The man who gives charity to the poor in order to build up spiritual merit maybe has a rather childish understanding of the church’s teaching, but at least he has an approximation to it.

The history was that the tradition of giving money to the church had become very formalised by the late Middle Ages, and vast sums were transferred. Due to economic changes, the aristocratic landowning class declined in power, whilst the adminstrative and mercantile classes became more powerful. Hence poor men like Thomas More rose to high office. However this new middle class couldn’t afford to keep up the lavish endowments of the church, because they relied on financial capital rather than land. So an excuse had to be found to make churches cheaper to run, which was “Sola Fide”.
 
heisenburg said:
My Appologies… and I guess under your discription i would need to look a little deeper to see ramifications…

However… the logic in my example would be someone that doesnt help because for what ever reason, they dont want to, not because of fear of being attacked…

Anyway… maybe i should have worded it like this…

If a man is walking down the road and sees someone asking for food, but refuses to for any other reason other than saftey issues, is it a sin

THank you though for ensuring i clarify…

In Christ
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As well as clarify more. Some, like me at the request of my husband, do not give to people on the side of the road. But I do give to charities who help the homeless. Why? Because in his job he sees the number who are not really homeless but are just decieving people.

The number who are alcoholics or drug addicts who just want food so they can spend their money on drugs. (or money to spend directly on them).

He feels very strongly that it is actually more harmful to a person in need to give to them directly than to require them to seek out help where they are somewhat accountable for the choices they have made.

But your question would still remain. We have the responsibility to help, the manner of help shoud be up to an individual and one cannot assume that by walking by this man, sin is being committed, but sin is committed if one does nothing at all for people in those circumstances.

God Bless,
Maria
 
But I will also say this. Most who profess faith alone say that one will naturally do good works also if one has true faith, so I think your question is not truly valid for those who profess faith alone except for a very slight minority.

God Bless,
Maria
 
MariaG said:
But I will also say this. Most who profess faith alone say that one will naturally do good works also if one has true faith, so I think your question is not truly valid for those who profess faith alone except for a very slight minority.

God Bless,
Maria
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But they are wrong. Good works do not automatically come out of faith. You still have to make an effort. You still have to stop and say to yourself “I’m really in a hurry today, but I need to follow Jesus’ example and do this good thing for my neighbor.” As humans, (unless you’re a Saint) we constantly have to fight self love and self importance to put God and others first. It doesn’t happen by its self. It takes Grace from God and an effort on our part. No matter how much Grace God throws at us we can still reject it and do our own thing.
 
Verita said:
But they are wrong. Good works do not automatically come out of faith. You still have to make an effort. You still have to stop and say to yourself “I’m really in a hurry today, but I need to follow Jesus’ example and do this good thing for my neighbor.” As humans, (unless you’re a Saint) we constantly have to fight self love and self importance to put God and others first. It doesn’t happen by its self. It takes Grace from God and an effort on our part. No matter how much Grace God throws at us we can still reject it and do our own thing.
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Whether or not they are wrong is not the point.

The point is they do not believe that a person who is truly saved will do nothing. Faith alone does not equal do nothing for most. Only a small minority believe in the faith alone means one will do no good works, naturally or by choice.

It can become a crisis in faith for them when they don’t “naturally” want to do good things and they have to get back and get truly saved, or get right with God again.

God Bless,
Maria
 
As far as the original question goes…

Nothing is inherently evil. There’s no such thing. God created the whole world, all of creation, good. Neither angels or humans can create anything. The best we can do is corrupt something that is good. Sin is a corruption of good, not a thing evil of its self.

Faith Alone, I believe, is a corruption of the Catholic teaching of Grace Alone and a misunderstanding of Paul’s writings. If you phrase Faith Alone very, very carefully, it’s not that bad. However, the heresy that can come of it (such as people who don’t believe that you have to follow any rules or commandments because faith is all you need) is mortally dangerous. For this reason, Faith Alone should be shunned. I wouldn’t say that it’s evil, though.
 
MariaG said:
Whether or not they are wrong is not the point.

The point is they do not believe that a person who is truly saved will do nothing. Faith alone does not equal do nothing for most. Only a small minority believe in the faith alone means one will do no good works, naturally or by choice.

It can become a crisis in faith for them when they don’t “naturally” want to do good things and they have to get back and get truly saved, or get right with God again.

God Bless,
Maria
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But even those who expect good works to come out of faith believe that they are doing nothing. Because they believe that the good works just happen, not that they work toward them. Meaning essentially, that we as human don’t need to put any effort toward good works because they will just naturally happen through us because of our faith. It comes down to the same thing.
 
Verita said:
But even those who expect good works to come out of faith believe that they are doing nothing. Because they believe that the good works just happen, not that they work toward them. Meaning essentially, that we as human don’t need to put any effort toward good works because they will just naturally happen through us because of our faith. It comes down to the same thing.
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I disagree. While impossible to say all non-Catholics believe this, since there can be so many variations within even the same denomination, especially the non-sacramental protestants.

It is very different to believe that good works come naturally and to believe that no effort will have to be put into those “natural” efforts.

For example: A family believes in faith alone. They feel “called” to put on a play their daughter wrote about salvation. Much time and effort went into the project. But they “naturally” wished to do the project.

So respectfully, I disagree with your assessment.

If you have found it to be true in your experience, (I have not) it does bring up one of the inherant problems with Protestants and the lack of cohesiveness even among the same denominations.

God Bless,
Maria
 
MariaG said:
I disagree. While impossible to say all non-Catholics believe this, since there can be so many variations within even the same denomination, especially the non-sacramental protestants.

It is very different to believe that good works come naturally and to believe that no effort will have to be put into those “natural” efforts.

For example: A family believes in faith alone. They feel “called” to put on a play their daughter wrote about salvation. Much time and effort went into the project. But they “naturally” wished to do the project.

So respectfully, I disagree with your assessment.

If you have found it to be true in your experience, (I have not) it does bring up one of the inherant problems with Protestants and the lack of cohesiveness even among the same denominations.

God Bless,
Maria
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I understand what you are saying but in my experience (as a former non-denominational) this is what many protestants do believe. Whether or not it works practically is another matter. But MANY of them will say to you that there is absolutely no effort on their part. That we can do absolutely nothing. That even their faith isn’t their own but comes from God.

I would never speak for all protestants. I can only talk about what I know, which excludes all main stream protestants. But this belief is out there. And it’s not only flawed, but dangerous.
 
Verita said:
I understand what you are saying but in my experience (as a former non-denominational) this is what many protestants do believe. Whether or not it works practically is another matter. But MANY of them will say to you that there is absolutely no effort on their part. That we can do absolutely nothing. That even their faith isn’t their own but comes from God.

I would never speak for all protestants. I can only talk about what I know, which excludes all main stream protestants. But this belief is out there. And it’s not only flawed, but dangerous.
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I see. Then I will have to accept your assessment. I had not heard of this twist, no effort. This seems an extreme extension of the “natural” good works.

In my walk, Nazarene, Assembly of God, and Evangelical (yes that was the name of the Church), they all felt the good works came naturally and while there was effort required on our part, it should come naturally. If it was not coming naturally, even though there was effort involved, one needed to pray about it.

I completely agree that the view of no effort is a very dangerous view.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Very good point on nothing inherently being evil…

If… it is understood that we still have to do those good works through christ, no problem with the idea, as it is basicly a rewording of faith plus works.

However, that is not faith alone. I know I may be using a very literalistic point of view, but you have to in this case.

My problem is this… If you understand faith to mean something it does not, you will use the distorted meaning throughout your studies. The result will be an unintentional twisting of what scripture says…

Take Hebrews 11 for example…

If you understand faith to mean merely the belief in something that cannot be proven, the verses mean very simply because X believed in what god was saying, even though he had no proof of what he was saying, person X closed his eyes, held out his hand, and trusted god knew what he was doing and did it…

If, however, you understand Faith to mean some magical thing that happens to you that will change your fundamental properties and allow you to automaticly do what you were suppose to, hebrews 11 will still make sense conceptually, but means something completely differant…
It will infact mean something like this…

Because person X was fundamentally changed, he automaticly did what he was suppose to do because he knew of no other choice.

If you continue to use the modified definition of faith, everywhere the word faith is mentioned, you fundamentally alter the meaning of scripture as a whole.

Furthermore, allowing non-catholics to use that understanding of the word faith is also saying by extension allowing the very core meaning of scripture to be changed.

This is why we HAVE to hold to the literal meaning of the word faith. Changing the meanign of Faith Changes the message of the bible…

Faith Means To believe in something that cannot be proven
Using that definition… Faith Alone Cannot be true as it WILL lead people to sin…

Finally, as mentioned, If i must be told the meaning of Faith is what is taught by many N-C circles, you allow for the creeping in of a form of Gnosticism…

Paul Also warned us that we can’t argue about the meaning of words… it will and has led many people to ruin…

In Christ
 
heisenburg said:
Very good point on nothing inherently being evil…

If… it is understood that we still have to do those good works through christ, no problem with the idea, as it is basicly a rewording of faith plus works.

However, that is not faith alone. I know I may be using a very literalistic point of view, but you have to in this case.

My problem is this… If you understand faith to mean something it does not, you will use the distorted meaning throughout your studies. The result will be an unintentional twisting of what scripture says…

Take Hebrews 11 for example…

If you understand faith to mean merely the belief in something that cannot be proven, the verses mean very simply because X believed in what god was saying, even though he had no proof of what he was saying, person X closed his eyes, held out his hand, and trusted god knew what he was doing and did it…

If, however, you understand Faith to mean some magical thing that happens to you that will change your fundamental properties and allow you to automaticly do what you were suppose to, hebrews 11 will still make sense conceptually, but means something completely differant…
It will infact mean something like this…

Because person X was fundamentally changed, he automaticly did what he was suppose to do because he knew of no other choice.

If you continue to use the modified definition of faith, everywhere the word faith is mentioned, you fundamentally alter the meaning of scripture as a whole.

Furthermore, allowing non-catholics to use that understanding of the word faith is also saying by extension allowing the very core meaning of scripture to be changed.

This is why we HAVE to hold to the literal meaning of the word faith. Changing the meanign of Faith Changes the message of the bible…

Faith Means To believe in something that cannot be proven
Using that definition… Faith Alone Cannot be true as it WILL lead people to sin…

Finally, as mentioned, If i must be told the meaning of Faith is what is taught by many N-C circles, you allow for the creeping in of a form of Gnosticism…

Paul Also warned us that we can’t argue about the meaning of words… it will and has led many people to ruin…

In Christ
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For most Protestants, this rewording is what is done.

Jimmy Akin wrote an article on this.

Justification by Faith Alone by James Akin
from Justification by faith alone by James Akin
Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to the idea of salvation sola gratia (by grace alone), but fewer are aware that Catholics also do not have to condemn the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.
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God bless,
Maria
 
Quick Aside…

Please forgiv me if i am sounding rude or harsh… it is not my intentions… It is not my intention to demean anyones faith… I am simply trying to question a long standing belief

Again… my appologies if what I have said ahs come of as rude or insulting…

In Christ
 
Heisenburg,

The answer to your question depends on the definition of “faith alone.” And that you will get, not from a dictionary (although that is an excellent source for an objective definition), but from the person who is using the term. I have had an Evangelical tell me that “faith alone” includes “repentance from your sins and a complete acceptance of all of the commandments of Jesus”–which is (as far as I can tell) indistinguishable from Catholic teaching. So his version of “faith alone” is not inherently evil. The “faith alone” that was condemned at Trent–which is NOT what this Evangelical believes–is inherently evil.
  • Liberian
 
heisenburg said:
If a someone walks by a homelessman on the street asking him for something to eat and passes him by, did this person commit a sin?

The answer would be yes.

Therein lies the crux of the issue…
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While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God loves us, for Jesus’ sake, even though we often pass by.
God forgives us those times we pass on by.

“Faith alone” is about salvation. It is the sick who are in need of a physician. We need to be saved because we do sin.
 
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