Is faith an answer to an problem nonbelievers don't perceive?

[HerCrazierHalf]

The back and forth between Christians and agnostics/atheist here has left me with an odd query.

Is a belief in God an answer to something that many agnostics\atheists do not view as a big problem?

I see numerous Catholics propose that God as a plausible solution to issues that don’t strike me as a major problem. For example, the issue of meaning and purpose. Several conversion stories (Jennifer Fulwiler, etc), include meaning as a major motivator. However, meaning for me is internally derived. The lack of a meaning that exist beyond my lifespan isn’t a problem in need of solution.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The back and forth between Christians and agnostics/atheist here has left me with an odd query.

Is a belief in God an answer to something that many agnostics\atheists do not view as a big problem?

I see numerous Catholics propose that God as a plausible solution to issues that don’t strike me as a major problem. For example, the issue of meaning and purpose. Several conversion stories (Jennifer Fulwiler, etc), include meaning as a major motivator. However, meaning for me is internally derived. The lack of a meaning that exist beyond my lifespan isn’t a problem in need of solution.

Is atheism an answer to anything other than the existence of God?

Atheism is not even plausible since there is no way to prove God does not exist.

Dostoevsky said that if there is no God, everything is permitted.

Nietzsche said there is no God.

Hitler said everything is permitted.

You say, “The lack of a meaning that exist beyond my lifespan isn’t a problem in need of solution.” Obviously, you don’t believe you have a soul. But again, there is no way you can prove that. If there is meaning beyond your lifespan, perhaps it’s in your interest to search for and find that meaning?

 

[adamhovey1988]

I don’t believe nonbelievers exist. NOT I don’t believe atheists don’t exist, but nonbelievers do not. Everyone believes in something, even if they don’t believe in God.

 

[TK421]

The back and forth between Christians and agnostics/atheist here has left me with an odd query.

Is a belief in God an answer to something that many agnostics\atheists do not view as a big problem?

I see numerous Catholics propose that God as a plausible solution to issues that don’t strike me as a major problem. For example, the issue of meaning and purpose. Several conversion stories (Jennifer Fulwiler, etc), include meaning as a major motivator. However, meaning for me is internally derived. The lack of a meaning that exist beyond my lifespan isn’t a problem in need of solution.

The purpose of faith in Catholicism is to validate a person’s love & devotion to God.

St John of the Cross speaks about this in depth. If people constantly felt a “spiritual high” whenever they prayed, or worshiped, or otherwise lived out their Christian life, then they would pursue their faith merely for the spiritual benefits it provided for them. But, this isn’t (or shouldn’t be) the case. Sometimes we feel highly motivated and enriched through our religion, and sometimes we do not .Sometimes we feel apathetic or unmotivated or empty or tired or otherwise inconvenienced to live out the creed. In these circumstances, a person nonetheless must live out their religion in obedience. If they do, then they are proven to be legitimate sons. If they do not, then they were only present for themselves.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I don’t believe nonbelievers exist. NOT I don’t believe atheists don’t exist, but nonbelievers do not. Everyone believes in something, even if they don’t believe in God.

I don’t think anyone is asserting that there are people walking around holding no beliefs at all. Rather, “nonbeliever” usually refers to a person that is not convinced of some proposition of interest (in this case the God proposition).

Is a belief in God an answer to something that many agnostics\atheists do not view as a big problem? …The lack of a meaning that exist beyond my lifespan isn’t a problem in need of solution.

I might be in the same boat as you. More than once I’ve encountered someone that has tried to make me feel concern that in a few thousand years there might not be any evidence that I ever existed. That’s not something that concerns me in the least bit; I’ve got not concern or care for the universe remembering me.

I tend to view the sense of “meaning” that your invoking as being akin to emotional importance. Among the most emotionally important things in my life are my friends, family, and loved ones. I care that I am significant to them. I do have feelings of concern for people in general but those feelings are not going to be as strong as they are for my loved ones.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Is atheism an answer to anything other than the existence of God?

Nope.

Atheism is not even plausible since there is no way to prove God does not exist.

That’d require knowledge of all existence plus something beyond the material universe. Therefore I do not say “God doesn’t exist.” Instead “I don’t believe in God.”. Also, the labels are really contested things here. More so than I truly care.

You say, “The lack of a meaning that exist beyond my lifespan isn’t a problem in need of solution.” Obviously, you don’t believe you have a soul. But again, there is no way you can prove that. If there is meaning beyond your lifespan, perhaps it’s in your interest to search for and find that meaning?

But a search for it would imply that one senses that they are missing something. Once again, a solution in search of a problem…
(I mean the above in a charitable way)

 

[Charlemagne_III]

.But a search for it would imply that one senses that they are missing something. Once again, a solution in search of a problem…

Many people many times in their lives miss something without sensing what they have missed.

God help them all.

 

[reggieM]

But a search for it would imply that one senses that they are missing something. Once again, a solution in search of a problem…
(I mean the above in a charitable way)

What atheism says, basically, is “it doesn’t matter”. To the question of purpose and meaning? “I get up, had my breakfast. Went to work. Played with the kids. Did something nice for my wife. Watched TV. Went to bed. Another day. Ultimate purpose? So what?”

But we’re all philosophical to some extent. By that, I mean, we ask “Why?”
Sure, it’s easy to avoid it. Getting caught up. I would say, getting distracted. If your life is one long distraction - then there’s no time or need for purpose or meaning.

However:

• Life is short. We have limited time. Are you using your life in the best way? Does it matter?
• What about your own moral development? Are you getting better as a person or worse? Does it matter?
• What do you communicate to the world? If the message is, “there is no ultimate purpose to anything” – does that carry certain consequences, if not to yourself, then to others?

There is the problem of justice - and that’s usually discussed under the moral problems of atheism, but it’s there with purpose also.

 

[Bradski]

The back and forth between Christians and agnostics/atheist here has left me with an odd query.

Is a belief in God an answer to something that many agnostics\atheists do not view as a big problem?

I think you’re right. God is the answer to a question I don’t have a need to ask.

 

[Bradski]

And as far as purpose goes, no – there is no ultimate purpose. The only alternative would be that we are here for a reason. And if you know enough about how the world has come to be and you don’t look at it through the lens of religion, then you would know that we are a fortuitous mix of chance, luck and good fortune.

Just for me to be sitting here typing this has meant that every single direct ancestor of mine managed to survive long enough to procreate. None of them fell out of tree or was eaten by lions or ate something that killed them or fell mortally ill or got an infected wound or wasn’t clubbed, stabbed, shot, beaten, hung or was starved to death. Of all the infinite ways to get killed, every single one of them managed to avoid it. The chances of that happening are astronomical.

So, sez all the Christians. THAT means you are special. God has adjusted the dials and fiddled with the levers to make sure you are sitting here right now. Is that just like the way the sole survivor of a plane crash is special? Meaning that all those who died were somehow not? Is that just like the way that some lines of descent ended abruptly when someone turned right instead of left when he left his cave? Or just like the way that someone stood up in front of my great great grandad just when that bullet was heading his way? Or just like that guy who turned his ankle and couldn’t outrun the flames. Or the bear. Or the rising water.

Humanity is here because we didn’t go extinct. We squeezed through. And you are here because there have been enough of us to prevent extinction, and you just happen to be one of the ones that made it thus far. No more and no less. So no reason, other than chance. So therefore, by definition, no purpose (save those dictated by evolutionary rules and regs: thou shalt this and thou shalt not that etc).

But meaning? Ah, now that is another matter entirely. As Socrates (the philosopher, not the Brazilian midfielder) said: The unexamined life is not worth living. And as John Stuart Mill went on to say: “It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question.”

So maybe meaning is to increase one’s understanding of the world around us and to pass that on, as best we can, to those who follow. I think I’m still at the satisfied pig stage to tell you the truth. But if I find out how to get to the next level (I keep hoping that age will bring wisdom…), you guys will be the first to know.

 

[tonyrey]

And as far as purpose goes, no – there is no ultimate purpose. The only alternative would be that we are here for a reason. And if you know enough about how the world has come to be and you don’t look at it through the lens of religion, then you would know that we are a fortuitous mix of chance, luck and good fortune.

Just for me to be sitting here typing this has meant that every single direct ancestor of mine managed to survive long enough to procreate. None of them fell out of tree or was eaten by lions or ate something that killed them or fell mortally ill or got an infected wound or wasn’t clubbed, stabbed, shot, beaten, hung or was starved to death. Of all the infinite ways to get killed, every single one of them managed to avoid it. The chances of that happening are astronomical…

If we are “a fortuitous mix of chance, luck and good fortune” how on earth can we possibly be reasonable? Camus and Sartre were more logical in their view that everything is absurd but they realised it is impossible to live according to that doctrine and became humanists as if our species is more significant than the others (which is illogical!). It amounts to a conjuring trick to derive reason from “a little agitation of the brain” - in the words of DavidHume. You’re getting something for nothing!

 

[tonyrey]

That makes no sense.
We can’t prove Bigfoot, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, etc, don’t exist…so is it implausible to not believe they exist?

Do YOU believe those things exist?

Are we supposed to believe in everything that we cannot prove does not exist?

Are we supposed to believe in anything at all? If so why? And if not how can we live?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Is a belief in God an answer to something that many agnostics\atheists do not view as a big problem? . . .

Most people have a belief system that provides an answer to the whats, hows and whys of existence.
Some don’t; they aren’t inclined to figure anything out, don’t particularly care or are too busy with life exigencies to waste time on what is in comparison abstract trivia.
Some are embittered and cynical, not so much growing their own relationship with reality, but intent on undermining that of others.

Beliefs tend to be societal in nature, shared visions that guide our interactions and provide ready-made meaning to the members.
For the most part we are unaware of their having been inculcated during the course of our socialization.
Mundane solutions are offered by Consumerist and Communist societies, while Zealotry seeks to bring down the transcendent to the mundane rather than lift us up to God.
As long as everything runs smoothly, those beliefs typically are not questioned.
When life spins out of control, we may become more entrenched and fanatical in our beliefs: try to make more money, more fame, more pleasure, more power.
We can lose ourselves to depression, anxiety and anger. Not a big problem for some, I suppose.

God is the truth, beauty and love.
Irrespective of whether one asks a question or not, we may encounter what is truly real and wondrous.
It’s something we generally want to share.
Our sinful nature typically sets up a fall from grace and we set forth on the Way.

Where there is no problem, a belief in the possibility of the Divine may not be felt as necessary.
But more likely, defences such as denial, apathy, and intellectualization are containing the problem.
People who fit the first description would likely say they are not interested in religion.
The second group, I believe would be more likely to contain self-identified atheists.

I am puzzled by the OP.
I don’t post on Sasquatch-sighting forums that it doesn’t matter to me whether or not reports concerning the elusive creature are valid and verifiable.
So, I can’t comprehend what would motivate a person whose life poses no big problem, to post here other than to troll.
The fact is that there is a problem and it boils down to the many forms of nonexistence; intellectually it is ignorance, socially it would include isolation and humiliation.
The problem is serious enough for some people to waste their time creating threads and formulating responses.

At any rate as the Beatitudes reveal from the mountain:

**Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. **
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

What appear to be problems can be the gateway to goodness, the fulfillment of our deepest desire.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Most people have a belief system that provides an answer to the whats, hows and whys of existence.
Some don’t; they aren’t inclined to figure anything out, don’t particularly care or are too busy with life exigencies to waste time on what is in comparison abstract trivia.
Some are embittered and cynical, not so much growing their own relationship with reality, but intent on undermining that of others.

Somethings will be figured out, not everything. Some can be okay with that.

I am puzzled by the OP.
I don’t post on Sasquatch-sighting forums that it doesn’t matter to me whether or not reports concerning the elusive creature are valid and verifiable.

I’d hazard a guess that you don’t encounter many people that assert Sasquatch. If you lived in a community of people that did there’s a possibility that you may be curious about the people that assert Sasquatch even if you yourself remain unconvinced about the existence of Sasquatch or even apathetic to whether or not Sasquatch exists. Understanding the viewpoints of those people that do assert the existence of Sasquatch may even be of use in social interactions with them. But such a person might find little interest in some of the other Cryptozoologists forums such as the one about the chupacabra or the creature of the Ness lake if they don’t encounter others that assert the existence of such creatures.

So, I can’t comprehend what would motivate a person whose life poses no big problem, to post here other than to troll.

There’s been several threads in which people answer the question to why they are here. If you want to know I would suggest checking one of those out. Such a thread is created several times per year, so finding one should be easy. Many of the regulars have been here for years and you can find their response in several versions of the topic.

 

[Aloysium]

Somethings will be figured out, not everything. Some can be okay with that. . .

That was my point.
But those who are okay with not knowing tend to describe their religious orientation as being agnostic, or more correctly “N/A”.
It is when we are confronted with problems that require an answer that we come to believe in something.
I would imagine that an atheist either has not confronted any such problem in their life, as the OP suggests, or they have found what has been transmitted to them by society about God, to be inadequate in resolving their issues. The latter would seem to be the most prevalent presentation on these forums.

I’d hazard a guess that you don’t encounter many people that assert Sasquatch. . .

Hmm. It’s sort of taken out of context.
It was an introduction to what followed:

. . . I can’t comprehend what would motivate a person whose life poses no big problem, to post here other than to troll.
The fact is that there is a problem and it boils down to the many forms of nonexistence; intellectually it is ignorance, socially it would include isolation and humiliation.
The problem is serious enough for some people to waste their time creating threads and formulating responses. . .

The inclusion of the proverbial abominable forest half-man/half-animal was inspired by a previous post:

. . . We can’t prove Bigfoot, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, etc, don’t exist…so is it implausible to not believe they exist? Do YOU believe those things exist? Are we supposed to believe in everything that we cannot prove does not exist? . . . .

It is ridiculous to compare Faith to a belief in the absurd, but hyperbole can highlight the point one is trying to make. Evidently however, not always.

The question asked in the OP is complex.
The first matter has to do with whether or not there exists a problem to which God is the answer.
The second would be whether it is a lack of perception of that problem that leads to disbelief in God.

If there is no problem, then no solution is necessary.
A belief in the existence of gods, where there is no need for them, is as absurd as believing in the Sasquatch.
If one believes this to be the case, then participating in religious forums is as nonsensical as being on Cryptozoologists forums.
There is nothing to be gained for nonbelievers who have no existential problems or questions, other to have some fun where there is great trolling to be done.

By the way, with regards to the other post, Catholicism is far more than a matter of simple belief.
What we are supposed to do is to seek happiness. For any one person, this may not necessate the contemplation our existence, its purpose, and the nature of the good and beautiful, or the reaching out to that which transcends us, but it does require action towards goodness. If anyone believes that it can be found in the absence of love, they will be greatly disillusioned. What we are supposed to do is to commit ourselves to that end.

There’s been several threads in which people answer the question to why they are here. . . .

I missed them, but I get the point I think you are trying to make - that one discovers more when attending to what another person has to say.

I think you’re right. God is the answer to a question I don’t have a need to ask.

Brad seems to have no problems, at least none that a couple of cold brewskis and good chums at a pub won’t fix.

I’m here to let people know that when things get bad, and they can get very bad, that we need not fear, that all the beauty and goodness of existence lies at its very core, that we are loved, that the burden of getting there is light and that I hope to see us all there.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

It is when we are confronted with problems that require an answer that we come to believe in something.

I don’t quite know what type of question requires a answer in the sense that you might intend it here. Applying an interpretation that is more general than what I think you may mean (that people are often but not always more open to adopting a a new belief or position if in an emotionally overwhelming and desperate position) I’d agree with that based on what I am familiar with in sociology. There are groups that act on this knowledge and have sought to increase their numbers by first finding out what challenges that a person may have in their life and then offering their group as either a solution to that problem or as a way to make the problem irrelevant.

I would imagine that an atheist either has not confronted any such problem in their life

Not necessarily. A person can have experienced challenging times and still be non-religious. Also consider that there have been some people that were religious and became non-religious after some challenging times motivated them to reconsider their previously held beliefs of how the world worked and what to expect.

The first matter has to do with whether or not there exists a problem to which God is the answer.
The second would be whether it is a lack of perception of that problem that leads to disbelief in God.

I can think of a couple of “problems” for which I have been told that God is the answer.

• Being able to “matter” on a cosmic scale, as nothing you do will matter in a few thousand years - I’m okay with that. I matter to my loved ones (and them to me). I’ve taken measures that i hope can help take care of them in the event of my death.
• Washing away Sin - while I can have feelings about a person being wronged by another there are a number of things that are labeled as “sin” that I don’t see as being a problem. If I feel like I have wronged a person then I feel that for resolution I need the interaction of that person. But there are also actions that are said to be sin for which no one feels to be a victim. Masturbation is good example. I understand there are those here that will identify it as a sin or say a person is doing a wrong doing to one’s self. That’s not my perception of what’s going on

If there is no problem, then no solution is necessary.

Indeed.

A belief in the existence of gods, where there is no need for them, is as absurd as believing in the Sasquatch.

I disagree. “Belief” isn’t necessarily about need. One might believe that something exists because of interaction with it (directly or indirectly) among other reasons.

There is nothing to be gained for nonbelievers who have no existential problems or questions, other to have some fun where there is great trolling to be done.
…]
I missed them, but I get the point I think you are trying to make - that one discovers more when attending to what another person has to say.

I only meant that there have been many discussions on the topic. Here is one of the 2017 threads:
Atheist What drew you to CAF

I believe every self identified atheist in this thread replied in that thread on the first page.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t quite know what type of question requires a answer in the sense that you might intend it here. Applying an interpretation that is more general than what I think you may mean (that people are often but not always more open to adopting a a new belief or position if in an emotionally overwhelming and desperate position) I’d agree with that based on what I am familiar with in sociology. There are groups that act on this knowledge and have sought to increase their numbers by first finding out what challenges that a person may have in their life and then offering their group as either a solution to that problem or as a way to make the problem irrelevant.

We are all in the challenging position of having to decide whether our lives are valuable and significant especially at a time when many people commit suicide because they believe life is meaningless…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

We are all in the challenging position of having to decide whether our lives are valuable and significant especially at a time when many people commit suicide because they believe life is meaningless…

If someone else commits suicide does that adjust the value that your friends and lived ones put one your life Tony?

 

[Aloysium]

Preferring a general rather than narrowing one-to-one discussion, the following are some thoughts elicited by a reading of Sapien’s post above:

Belief systems, aka theories in the world of science, connect us with reality. Although difficult, if not impossible to determine where, we might imagine any one of them as being on a continuum, where on one end we have clear absolute knowledge, such as the awareness most of us have of our own existence in the world, tied in to a more-or-less coherent, rational network of ideas that pertain to it. And, on the other delirium where its disorganized, hellish symbols relate to an unrecognized, chaotic mental state. Being both individual and social phenomenon, beliefs are considered true for oneself and shared within a community. In some respects they reflect the basic ways we have of understanding the world such as mathematics and logic, and are universal to human nature. They are also developed and modified through the multitude of interactions that constitutes our lives. Necessity being the mother of invention, extreme for sure, but generally conflicting situations force us to find new and more effective ways of understanding and dealing with what life brings.

There are how many billions of people on this earth and each will have his or her own perspective and understanding. Some we may group in the religious category, others not. I am not happy about hypothesizing about the various individual and group responses, but an example seems necessary if we are to address the point of the OP. What we have observed in modern society is an emphasis on personal empowerment and with it a growing tolerance on certain social activities particularly sexual. Hopefully, I have woken some of us up from bored slumber. As a natural consequence of tis tendency, we see the emergence and proliferation of such evils as pornography and abortion, which are not only condoned, but seen as solutions. Kill one’s baby, no problem. Degrade oneself and another, no problem, if we consent. History provides ample examples of how we fall deeper and deeper into sin. Further from the light, in the ensuing darkness anything is justified as power usurps God’s position and death rules. Within the corrupted vision, how the church itself is viewed may become distorted, the Body of Christ unrecognized in the world of shadows.

The truth is that we are here and now, eternal, rooted outside time and in motion, becoming ourselves as our potential is actualized through choices in the journey. While this flickering flame in time, bears the light that fills all time and space, we are nothing but the dust that remains after we are gone. Yet in this moment where and when we are now meeting - thought, perception, feeling and action are one within the reality that is our presence and relationship with all that otherwise is, was and will be. In contemplation, this all can quickly get powerfully awesome in its grandeur and mortal terror. A baby’s smile, and also a tool of destruction sends chunks of meat everywhere. This is existence and on a transcendent, universal scale includes all of us. We who can tune down its reality, our consciousness, ignoring that which is around us and around the next bend in our destiny.

This is sounding a bit fire-and-brimstone, of which we should be concerned about, but, focussing on the bad stuff, or even the indescribable good which in the case of evil, would be absent, makes religion sound as if it is about ourselves, when it really has to do with us and God.

We are to pursue the good and the true for their own sake. We know these through Faith, the head’s connection to God as Truth, and Conscience, the heart’s connection to God as Love. We come to deeply know God, each other and we ourselves only through our relationship with God. It is all too easy to block or short-circuit the system, lying to ourselves in pursuit of selfish ends. They have to be informed; and that is what the Church is for, as we assist one another in climbing the mountain to where all is visible. I myself can’t bring forth Faith, nor awaken a person’s conscience; only the Holy Spirit can do that. I am spreading this Catholic-oriented fertilizer to help grow those seeds of Faith, and no doubt people will hear in this what is in their soul.

TLDNR: With respect to the OP, I would reply in the affirmative, that faith is an answer to a problem nonbelievers don’t, can’t or refuse to perceive.

 

[o_mlly]

The lack of a meaning that exist beyond my lifespan isn’t a problem in need of solution.