- Status
R
rcwitness
Guest
Good point James.
Faith may be described as just believing in things unseen. Faith can aslo be described as a whole gospel preached, for example the Catholic Church, including the Doctrines (especially faith and works) and the whole teaching as one.
When James and Paul describe faith, they are trying to emphisize certain aspects of teaching, attitude, behaviour, motivation, inspiration that must accompany faith for it to be a profitable faith. One man’s faith may be different than another man’s faith. They may have similar founding principles, but differ on description. I think it is a shame when men are able to muster so much “faith” in finding good meaning within the bible, but seem to show the exact opposite “faith” in determining the meaning of the Church of Rome.
Michael
Faith may be described as just believing in things unseen. Faith can aslo be described as a whole gospel preached, for example the Catholic Church, including the Doctrines (especially faith and works) and the whole teaching as one.
When James and Paul describe faith, they are trying to emphisize certain aspects of teaching, attitude, behaviour, motivation, inspiration that must accompany faith for it to be a profitable faith. One man’s faith may be different than another man’s faith. They may have similar founding principles, but differ on description. I think it is a shame when men are able to muster so much “faith” in finding good meaning within the bible, but seem to show the exact opposite “faith” in determining the meaning of the Church of Rome.
Michael
F
fhansen
Guest
Faith is defined by the CC as intellectual assent. From my understanding demons give intellectual assent because they can’t do otherwise; they simply know, from the benefit of their perspective, that God exists. For humans, that ability to give intellectual assent to supernatural truths is a gift known as faith. The definition is the same, but the means of achieving it is different. Both involve belief either way, and that belief, by itself, or alone, is insufficient to justify us.
P
Philthy
Guest
Hi Jon -
James the Apostle says so…
James 2:14"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"
He refers to the faith without works as a type of faith he calls “that faith”. He does NOT say, “If someone says he has faith but does not have works, does he really have faith?”
As such, faith without works is a type of faith - Luther’s opinion notwithstanding.
meltzerboy
New member
I don’t know the context of this particular verse; however, it seems to me, that when James says: “Can that faith save him?,” he might mean can that so-called faith save him, which suggests it is not faith at all.
J
JRKH
Guest
Here is a bit more of the context…
James 2:14-18
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
By the way - I really appreciate having the Jewish perspective on this. Thanks for sharing.
Peace
James
P
Philthy
Guest
Correct - faith without works (ie faith alone) is an incomplete, good for nothing, non-justifying, dead faith that does not save you (according to James). It is, however, a type of faith and that is the subject of the thread( as evidenced by the Title: “Is Faith without works Faith at all?”).
Well, this is not unlike what Lutherans believe. The term sola fide, however, speaks to the way we access justification, as Paul tells us numerous times. We cannot earn or merit justification. But saving faith is a faith that works through love, again as Paul tells us, and I believe James reiterates.
Jon
R
rcwitness
Guest
Hi Jon, good to see you.
Maybe this is a good way to understand “Roman” Catholic faith and works. We say, we can only earn/merit the “promise” of justification through faith and works, but the “faith” in faith and works is this: that everything we do that is accepted by the Father, is only through the saving work that is Jesus. This is Grace Alone through Faith and Works.
Do you agree with this? I honestly get confused with Luther. He seems to go in circles. Sometimes I feel like we agree with the same thing. The works done out of faith are not outside Jesus. But this is ultimately for God to judge. Who’s works are in Him (faith) and who’s are out of their own selves.
Sincerely,
Michael
P
Philthy
Guest
Works alone do not justify us, nor does faith alone, as James makes perfectly clear.
None of this is relevant to the thread however. The simple question asked was whether faith can exist apart from works, and the answer is that it can.
J
JRKH
Guest
I’m coming more to the understanding that “faith” can exist without works…But - “faith” in what?
It seems that it must be faith in a false gospel…
Peace
James
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
No…Faith without love and charity is not faith. If we have faith in the Eternal God, our lives should reflect such faith. Charity without faith is a hollow act. As Christ stated…many will do great things but I knew them not…so that tells us that “good” people will do things but for the wrong reasons.
Having faith in Christ requires us to live out His commandments and to do HIS WILL and NOT ours.
That is the key point I believe. I do not want to judge the salvation of another, but I believe that we must live out our faith in order to have such. I often fall short of such and thankfully I have the Sacraments to bring me back. 
So to repeat myself…no…faith without love and charity is dead and charity without faith is empty.
F
fhansen
Guest
IIt’s simply intellectual assent to the supernatural truths proposed by the Church: God’s existence, the words and deeds of Jesus. It’s having a lamp but not letting it shine, receiving talents but not investing them. It’s being rocky ground where the seed sprouts and later dies, it’s knowing what to do but not doing it. The human heart can be stubborn-and divided. Faith, like all gifts of grace, is expected to produce, but it won’t unless we continue to cooperate.
"…if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1Cor13:2
Kind of like the 500 year old debate between us.
Faith may be able to exist - for a time - without “working through love”, but I see no value in it. Besides, failure to do the works He prepares before us is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin leads to a loss of justifying faith. Call it mortal sin if you choose.
Jon
C
CrossofChrist
Guest
Depends.Is Faith without works Faith at all?? How about Faith without love?
In a thread on another forum the issue of faith and works came up (surprise surprise)
Anyway in the discussion the usual points were made and I have no argument with most of them…but the discussion got me thinking about something and I decided to make a new thread to get wider (name removed by moderator)ut. Not looking for an argument - rather an exploration.
St James tells us, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17)
Similarly St Paul tells us that if he has faith without love he is nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)
In each of these cases the writer ties “faith” with something else. They do not say that faith “produces” the other thing – they say “faith without…” or “if I have faith – but have not…”
So here is the thing – and the title of the thread….If we do not have these other things – Can we legitimately say that we have “faith”?
What say you???
My thinking is no we cannot - not really. We might have “belief”…we might even have “hope” but I hesitate to call it “faith” if it is not interconnected with and evidenced by these other things…principally “Love”, since works of mercy do spring from love.
Contained in this - could be some translation issues - If I recall from an earlier conversation - the Greek term often translated as “faith” can also be translated as “belief”…If someone can refresh/clarify this that would be great.
One note here….When speaking of works…let it be clear that I am talking about a normative condition where it is possible for a person to do some form of work…We can always propose non-normal circumstances where we then rely on God’s mercy.
However – non-normal circumstances do not negate our responsibilities to God in our normative lives….
Peace
James
The Council of Trent was addressing faith and it meant “By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.” (CCC 143). It was talking about intellectual assent to the truth, which is what St. James is referring to.
The Catechism also says this: Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. (1814)
But it also says: By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” (ibid)
How can one “commit his entire self to God” without charity? So in this sense faith encompasses love and is working through love, like St. Paul says.
Pope Benedict said this, speaking about St. Paul and faith:
At the moment of his encounter with the Risen One he understood that with Christ’s Resurrection the situation had changed radically. With Christ, the God of Israel, the one true God, became the God of all peoples. The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).
Luther with regards to justification could be interpreted in line with Church teaching. At least the views of modern Lutherans with the JDDJ. But considering this quote of Luther concerning the Church Fathers, I’m skeptical as to his personal beliefs being in line with the Church:
Behold what great darkness is in the books of the Fathers concerning faith; yet if the article of justification be darkened, it is impossible to smother the grossest errors of mankind. St Jerome, indeed, wrote upon Matthew, upon the Epistles to Galatians and Titus; but, alas! very coldly. Ambrose wrote six books upon the first book of Moses, but they are very poor. Augustine wrote nothing to the purpose concerning faith; for he was first roused up and made a man by the Pelagians, in striving against them. I can find no exposition upon the Epistles to the Romans and Galatians, wherein anything is taught pure and aright. O what a happy time have we now in regard to the purity of the doctrine; but alas! we little esteem it. After the Fathers came the pope, and with his mischievous traditions and human ordinances, like a breaking water-cloud and deluge, overflowed the church, snared consciences, touching eating of meat, friars hoods, masses, etc., so that daily he brought abominable errors into the church of Christ; and to serve his own turn, took hold on St Augustine’s sentence, where he says, Evangelio non crederem, etc. The asses could not see what occasioned Augustine to utter that sentence, whereas he spoke it against the Manicheans, as much as to say: I believe you not, for ye are damned heretics, but I believe and hold with the church, the spouse of Christ, which cannot err.
P
Philthy
Guest
I’m not sure why you are so much trouble with this elementary question - perhaps the 500 yr old debate that you speak of is clouding your mind in an attempt to address issues that are not really issues in this discussion.
Whether a dead faith can last - for a time - is irrelevant.
Whether you see value in it is - irrelevant.
The failure to do works is a given from the Title, and is not an issue.
Faith without works is like a body without a spirit: it’s dead. It remains a body, but a useless one. James was pretty clear on this.
blessings
R
rcwitness
Guest
We have all agreed that faith without love is not profitable. Do Lutherans believe this faith without love is what they call Sola Fide is their concern. I don’t think they do. I think it has become a means to demonize the doctrine of Faith and Works. The doctrine of Faith and Works is based on “a view of faith” such as St James describes. Simple and true!
We have also agreed that such a faith can and does exist. I think it almost always exists in practice not in doctrine or teaching. Catholics and Lutherans (and the rest of the Sola Fides) both agree that works of love are absolutely neccessary. And furthermore, neither believes that these works are from and of themselves. They are done in obedience to the conviction that the Lord has renewed our hearts and inspired us to the good purpose in doing them. So all of us are vulnerable to living our faith without works. That is why just believing and praying and going to Church, even to receive Eucharist in faith, is not enough to merit the promise of the glory of Jesus’ kingdom. We must have the fruit of the Spirit in which we were saved by.
God give each of us the Agape towards our brothers for the glory of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit! And that Our Lord accepts our faith as doing His will.
Affectionately,
We have also agreed that such a faith can and does exist. I think it almost always exists in practice not in doctrine or teaching. Catholics and Lutherans (and the rest of the Sola Fides) both agree that works of love are absolutely neccessary. And furthermore, neither believes that these works are from and of themselves. They are done in obedience to the conviction that the Lord has renewed our hearts and inspired us to the good purpose in doing them. So all of us are vulnerable to living our faith without works. That is why just believing and praying and going to Church, even to receive Eucharist in faith, is not enough to merit the promise of the glory of Jesus’ kingdom. We must have the fruit of the Spirit in which we were saved by.
God give each of us the Agape towards our brothers for the glory of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit! And that Our Lord accepts our faith as doing His will.
Affectionately,
F
fhansen
Guest
The CC teaches otherwise. Mortal sin destroys charity/love but not necessarily faith. So yes, there isn’t much value in faith that doesn’t work through love-but such faith can exist.
5
504Katrin
Guest
You know, this is something that has always been a question mark for me during my almost two years in church. I tried to learn as much as I could in order to get close to G0d. When I talked to my Priest of what to do to get closer to G0d and to know Him, I was told that I had to have faith, heavens would then meassure my faith looking at the way I treated my neighbors, which I think we all agree with.
But I also wanted to know what to do in regards to my very personal relationship with G0d? Faith I had anyways and then what? It was as if where I started (faith) was where I was supposed to have arrived. I felt stuck. What to ***do ***to grow my very personal relationship with G0d was the question. I went to so many services in order to hear sermons as this seemed to be the only possibility to learn from a Pastor about G0d. When I had questions though they weren’t always very welcome, and sermons weren’t “supposed to catechize” I was told. Read the bible, be good to others… pray…that I was told. No instructions on what to do to grow my personal relationship with G0d though.
So I went to confirmation classes and tried that hoping to learn about G0d. There I learned about having faith once again. But then, right when I felt as if my road to Him had been blocked, I found out that I didn’t even belong there. And then, the day I received my prayer book …guys…I won’t ever forget. I started reading the first page and even though I had only read the first lines I instantly knew I had the keys to my home in my hand that I had been searching for so long. I couldn’t even finish reading the first page as I started to cry uncontrollably and I couldn’t stop crying tears of such deep, deep gratefulness. And it was in all these tears where everything, my desperation and my longing for Him had streamed out, there I united with Him.
Thanks for letting me speak. I’m not always that open but sometimes… I don’t know
But I also wanted to know what to do in regards to my very personal relationship with G0d? Faith I had anyways and then what? It was as if where I started (faith) was where I was supposed to have arrived. I felt stuck. What to ***do ***to grow my very personal relationship with G0d was the question. I went to so many services in order to hear sermons as this seemed to be the only possibility to learn from a Pastor about G0d. When I had questions though they weren’t always very welcome, and sermons weren’t “supposed to catechize” I was told. Read the bible, be good to others… pray…that I was told. No instructions on what to do to grow my personal relationship with G0d though.
So I went to confirmation classes and tried that hoping to learn about G0d. There I learned about having faith once again. But then, right when I felt as if my road to Him had been blocked, I found out that I didn’t even belong there. And then, the day I received my prayer book …guys…I won’t ever forget. I started reading the first page and even though I had only read the first lines I instantly knew I had the keys to my home in my hand that I had been searching for so long. I couldn’t even finish reading the first page as I started to cry uncontrollably and I couldn’t stop crying tears of such deep, deep gratefulness. And it was in all these tears where everything, my desperation and my longing for Him had streamed out, there I united with Him.
Thanks for letting me speak. I’m not always that open but sometimes… I don’t know
- Status