Is Faith without works Faith at all?? How about Faith without love?

[JRKH]

Is Faith without works Faith at all?? How about Faith without love?

In a thread on another forum the issue of faith and works came up (surprise surprise )
Anyway in the discussion the usual points were made and I have no argument with most of them…but the discussion got me thinking about something and I decided to make a new thread to get wider (name removed by moderator)ut. Not looking for an argument - rather an exploration.

St James tells us, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17)
Similarly St Paul tells us that if he has faith without love he is nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

In each of these cases the writer ties “faith” with something else. They do not say that faith “produces” the other thing – they say “faith without…” or “if I have faith – but have not…”

So here is the thing – and the title of the thread….If we do not have these other things – Can we legitimately say that we have “faith”?

What say you???

My thinking is no we cannot - not really. We might have “belief”…we might even have “hope” but I hesitate to call it “faith” if it is not interconnected with and evidenced by these other things…principally “Love”, since works of mercy do spring from love.

Contained in this - could be some translation issues - If I recall from an earlier conversation - the Greek term often translated as “faith” can also be translated as “belief”…If someone can refresh/clarify this that would be great.

One note here….When speaking of works…let it be clear that I am talking about a normative condition where it is possible for a person to do some form of work…We can always propose non-normal circumstances where we then rely on God’s mercy.
However – non-normal circumstances do not negate our responsibilities to God in our normative lives….

Peace
James

 

[benjohnson]

Fascinating topic!

My gut reaction is that a love-filled faith is the ideal, but often times we find ourselves in our lives in a low point and have to act on faith despite our own hardened hearts.

Sometimes the emotion I have for God seems more akin to a deep appreciative respect without the awestruck love I see others have for Him. This very well may be my own failing as my childhood was rather stark and barren.

I do have several friends in a preacher-oriented church that joyfully express their love for God in a way that makes me happy for them, but I do find to be a bit more that I could muster.

Of course, I’m probably playing into the stereotypical “frozen chosen” Lutheran stereotype

 

[Publisher]

“Though I speak with the tongue of men and of angels…and have not love…”

The whole chapter is worth reading over and over and over…“now abide hope, faith and love, and the greatest of these is love.”

 

[cheezey]

“Though I speak with the tongue of men and of angels…and have not love…”

The whole chapter is worth reading over and over and over…“now abide hope, faith and love, and the greatest of these is love.”

 

[credoicxc]

To quote John Kerry, in attempting to quote St. James, “Faith without works, is death!” :bigyikes:

If a faith without works is dead, then a faith with works is alive. It’s real.

As Catholics we know this does not mean we are justified by observing Mosaic Law, as if the covenant made with Abraham was null and void. As St. Paul wrote in Galatians 5:4, “You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.” And then in the sixth verse, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.” Our God is love. If we are faithful to Him, we too will love in heart, word, and deed. In Matthew 25 the works of the sheep at the Lord’s right hand will show their faith. Without divine love, we do not believe in He who is love.

Pax tecum!

 

[wllmjoseph]

Matthew 7:21
“Not everone who says to me Lord,Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.but he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven will enter.”

This bible verse if from the King James version. Jesus makes it very clear that “faith alone” will not save us. What I love about this verse is that our Lord puts the emphasis on action when he states “…but he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven will enter.”

For faith to be genuine it must cotain Love!

 

[JRKH]

Appreciate the responses so far…but many don’t seem to address the main question…

Is faith without “works” or without “love” - really “faith” at all?

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

Is Faith without works Faith at all?? How about Faith without love?

In a thread on another forum the issue of faith and works came up (surprise surprise )
Anyway in the discussion the usual points were made and I have no argument with most of them…but the discussion got me thinking about something and I decided to make a new thread to get wider (name removed by moderator)ut. Not looking for an argument - rather an exploration.

St James tells us, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17)
Similarly St Paul tells us that if he has faith without love he is nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

In each of these cases the writer ties “faith” with something else. They do not say that faith “produces” the other thing – they say “faith without…” or “if I have faith – but have not…”

So here is the thing – and the title of the thread….If we do not have these other things – Can we legitimately say that we have “faith”?

What say you???

My thinking is no we cannot - not really. We might have “belief”…we might even have “hope” but I hesitate to call it “faith” if it is not interconnected with and evidenced by these other things…principally “Love”, since works of mercy do spring from love.
Contained in this - could be some translation issues - If I recall from an earlier conversation - the Greek term often translated as “faith” can also be translated as “belief”…If someone can refresh/clarify this that would be great.

One note here….When speaking of works…let it be clear that I am talking about a normative condition where it is possible for a person to do some form of work…We can always propose non-normal circumstances where we then rely on God’s mercy.
However – non-normal circumstances do not negate our responsibilities to God in our normative lives….

Peace
James

James,
I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded. In Galatians 5:6, St. Paul adds a qualifier, if you will to faith,* For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.*
To which, Luther responds:

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian.** Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.**

Christ says:* “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.*

Faith is always connected to love. Faith, true faith, in the Lutheran, always incorporates hope and love.

Jon

 

[po18guy]

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love, faith comes first and is our entry into the divine life via those virtues. Paul says, in Romans 3:28 that we are “justified by faith”, but later on in the same letter, he teaches that we are “saved by hope” Romans 8:24. But, even hope is not final, as it will pass away when that which is hoped for arrives. In 1 Corinthians 13:13 he teaches that love is greater than either faith or hope - for in heaven there will be only love - faith and hope having passed away as the imperfect becomes the perfect (1 Corinthians 13:10,12).

Faith and hope are transient, anticipatory virtues. All that remains in heaven is the greatest of the theological virtues: love. Paul describes this perfect progression of our spirits in 1 Corinthians 13.

 

[Anthony_V]

Appreciate the responses so far…but many don’t seem to address the main question…

Is faith without “works” or without “love” - really “faith” at all?

Peace
James

Let me back up a bit, James. Theology is usually very transparent to me but this whole faith-works things has always boggled me from a big-picture point of view.

Both faith and good works are a participation in God’s life–who is love, because grace is a participation in God’s life. Both are attached to grace. So saying “faith alone” or “good works alone”, even in a hypothetical way, is very confusing in light of that paradigm because God, who is his own life, doesn’t have “parts”. Even the Trinity is not three “persons” as we think of persons (which usually has its own substance). St. Anselm calls them nescio quids (I-don’t-know-whats). St. Augustine points out that they are somehow subsistent relations. As far as I understand, Luther’s Sola Fide dart means something different than what Catholic’s are saying to begin with.

So in the spirit of divine unity (punny), I ask this question:
"What part of God’s life do I need to have eternal life?"

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...rl7gBOixZ1Xv1JimtLn8lS8BKHNQucW6FWg4IHHfwJzem

God’s life IS the eternal life (John 14:6). So the question is not about “faith alone”, as if we ultimately need a certain part of God’s life for eternal life (clear as mud?). It’s about this:** what is the scope of grace?** Do I work in grace or *because *of grace?

The funny thing about systematic theology is it gets you saying some things without actually know what they means… which is why before I stuff my foot in my mouth, I will be listening to this and reading this.

 

[Philthy]

So here is the thing – and the title of the thread….If we do not have these other things – Can we legitimately say that we have “faith”? My thinking is no we cannot - not really. What say you???

I say that we definitely can. This position is most expressly stated in James 2 which you quoted above. Faith without works is an incomplete, dead faith that doesn’t save you. It’s his whole point as is evident by his introductory question, “If a man says he has faith but has not works can that faith save him?” And the answer is no, but James does speak of this dead, non-salvific faith as type of faith.

One note here….When speaking of works…let it be clear that I am talking about a normative condition where it is possible for a person to do some form of work…We can always propose non-normal circumstances where we then rely on God’s mercy.
However – non-normal circumstances do not negate our responsibilities to God in our normative lives….

Peace
James

Very good observation - many often overlook such nuances when discussing these issues and it causes much confusion.

Blessings!

 

[fhansen]

Is Faith without works Faith at all?? How about Faith without love?

In a thread on another forum the issue of faith and works came up (surprise surprise )
Anyway in the discussion the usual points were made and I have no argument with most of them…but the discussion got me thinking about something and I decided to make a new thread to get wider (name removed by moderator)ut. Not looking for an argument - rather an exploration.

St James tells us, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17)
Similarly St Paul tells us that if he has faith without love he is nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

In each of these cases the writer ties “faith” with something else. They do not say that faith “produces” the other thing – they say “faith without…” or “if I have faith – but have not…”

So here is the thing – and the title of the thread….If we do not have these other things – Can we legitimately say that we have “faith”?

What say you???

My thinking is no we cannot - not really. We might have “belief”…we might even have “hope” but I hesitate to call it “faith” if it is not interconnected with and evidenced by these other things…principally “Love”, since works of mercy do spring from love.

Contained in this - could be some translation issues - If I recall from an earlier conversation - the Greek term often translated as “faith” can also be translated as “belief”…If someone can refresh/clarify this that would be great.

One note here….When speaking of works…let it be clear that I am talking about a normative condition where it is possible for a person to do some form of work…We can always propose non-normal circumstances where we then rely on God’s mercy.
However – non-normal circumstances do not negate our responsibilities to God in our normative lives….

Peace
James

According to Catholic teaching the three theological virtues, faith, hope, and love, are neither equal to each other nor even of equal importance (cf 1Cor 13). Faith and even hope can exist without love (even the demons believe) while love automatically includes the other two, as well as producing works. Faith needs to lead to love but this is not guaranteed-we can always turn away from the love of God. The Church similarly teaches that mortal sin destroys charity but not necessarily faith.

 

[JRKH]

I say that we definitely can. This position is most expressly stated in James 2 which you quoted above. Faith without works is an incomplete, dead faith that doesn’t save you. It’s his whole point as is evident by his introductory question, “If a man says he has faith but has not works can that faith save him?” And the answer is no, but James does speak of this dead, non-salvific faith as type of faith.
Very good observation - many often overlook such nuances when discussing these issues and it causes much confusion.

Blessings!

According to Catholic teaching the three theological virtues, faith, hope, and love, are neither equal to each other nor even of equal importance (cf 1Cor 13). Faith and even hope can exist without love (even the demons believe) while love automatically includes the other two, as well as producing works. Faith needs to lead to love but this is not guaranteed-we can always turn away from the love of God. The Church similarly teaches that mortal sin destroys charity but not necessarily faith.

Thank you…One question.
What is the difference between “faith” and “belief”.
Yes…"even the demons believe

I seems that what I am hearing is that the difference between “faith” and “belief” is the element of Agape…Love. I think I agree with this for certainly love leads to good works - even in non-believers and atheists (not that their works alone are sufficient without faith)

fhanson - you refer to faith needing to lead to love…but I wonder if it isn’t really the other way around. I wonder if it isn’t Love that leads to (true) faith…
Just a thought…

Peace
James

 

[fhansen]

Thank you…One question.
What is the difference between “faith” and “belief”.
Yes…"even the demons believe

I seems that what I am hearing is that the difference between “faith” and “belief” is the element of Agape…Love. I think I agree with this for certainly love leads to good works - even in non-believers and atheists (not that their works alone are sufficient without faith)

fhanson - you refer to faith needing to lead to love…but I wonder if it isn’t really the other way around. I wonder if it isn’t Love that leads to (true) faith…
Just a thought…

Peace
James

I’m sure that there’re elements of both faith and love in our initial turning to God. After all, ‘we love Him because He first loved us’. And, whether we know it or not, love is what we’re looking for all along; it’s not as if we have no sense of this virtue. But to come to love as God desires, a love that ultimately centers on God and neighbor above all else, a love which excludes sin by its nature, man requires communion with God. This is how we’re meant to be, and this is how we become malleable clay in the hands of the Potter, where He can ‘place His laws on our hearts and write them in our minds’ as He becomes the God of man again (Jer 31:33-34). And this means that He seeks to produce, by grace, love in us. And this intimate communion all begins, from man’s perspective, with faith, itself a gift of grace.

 

[Philthy]

Thank you…One question.
What is the difference between “faith” and “belief”.
Yes…"even the demons believe

Obedience!

I seems that what I am hearing is that the difference between “faith” and “belief” is the element of Agape…Love. I think I agree with this for certainly love leads to good works - even in non-believers and atheists (not that their works alone are sufficient without faith)

What do you think “agape” love is exactly?? Is it an emotion - a way that we “feel” about another person? Well, there is certainly an element of that, but it is more. It is primarily an act. It is faith “in action”; a response to the Lord’s command to “love one another”. And please note that if love were merely an emotion we could not be commanded to love (cf John 13:34) as we do not control our emotions.

fhanson - you refer to faith needing to lead to love…but I wonder if it isn’t really the other way around. I wonder if it isn’t Love that leads to (true) faith…
Just a thought…

Peace
James

They are mutually edifying - faith and love. Love leads to deeper faith; deeper faith leads to greater love. The point remains the same: faith without works of love is a type of faith, and what type is it? It is an incomplete, dead, non-justifying entity that does not save you.

 

[kwortham]

If faith without works and love can save you, then what about the case of demons?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 8:29[/BIBLEDRB]

The demons in this verse acknowledged Christ as the Son of God. Therefore, in strict accordance with protestant “faith only” teaching, these devils will go to heaven. If not, then why not?

 

[JonNC]

If faith without works and love can save you, then what about the case of demons?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 8:29[/BIBLEDRB]

The demons in this verse acknowledged Christ as the Son of God. Therefore, in strict accordance with protestant “faith only” teaching, these devils will go to heaven. If not, then why not?

Who said that faith can even be without works?

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. 11] Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. 12] [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, **so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire. **

Luther, as quoted in the Formula of Concord.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

The demons in this verse acknowledged Christ as the Son of God. Therefore, in strict accordance with protestant “faith only” teaching, these devils will go to heaven. If not, then why not?

[Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him].

Do demons have a “living, bold trust in God’s grace”?

Jon

 

[JRKH]

The above exchange highlights my earlier Question…Is there a difference between “belief” and “faith”…
The reference to demons in James says they believe the reference to the relationship with works says "faith. The Greek used here is similar with one word Pistis (faith) indicating greater conviction than the derivative Pisteuo (believe)…
(this according to Strong’s concordance)

This sort of brings us back to whether one can really call it faith (deep conviction) without the other components present - particularly Agape.

Peace
James

 

[meltzerboy]

Is Faith without works Faith at all?? How about Faith without love?

In a thread on another forum the issue of faith and works came up (surprise surprise )
Anyway in the discussion the usual points were made and I have no argument with most of them…but the discussion got me thinking about something and I decided to make a new thread to get wider (name removed by moderator)ut. Not looking for an argument - rather an exploration.

St James tells us, “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17)
Similarly St Paul tells us that if he has faith without love he is nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

In each of these cases the writer ties “faith” with something else. They do not say that faith “produces” the other thing – they say “faith without…” or “if I have faith – but have not…”

So here is the thing – and the title of the thread….If we do not have these other things – Can we legitimately say that we have “faith”?

What say you???

My thinking is no we cannot - not really. We might have “belief”…we might even have “hope” but I hesitate to call it “faith” if it is not interconnected with and evidenced by these other things…principally “Love”, since works of mercy do spring from love.

Contained in this - could be some translation issues - If I recall from an earlier conversation - the Greek term often translated as “faith” can also be translated as “belief”…If someone can refresh/clarify this that would be great.

One note here….When speaking of works…let it be clear that I am talking about a normative condition where it is possible for a person to do some form of work…We can always propose non-normal circumstances where we then rely on God’s mercy.
However – non-normal circumstances do not negate our responsibilities to God in our normative lives….

Peace
James

Judaism is an orthoprax religion more so than an orthodox one. Thus love expressed through charitable works holds the key to true faith. If one does not act in a moral and compassionate way toward other people and toward animals as well, which means loving others and demonstrating that love in any way one can, what kind of faith in G-d and in His Will can one really have? I would also add that good works in Judaism are essential not for the purpose of salvation but rather as a means of expressing toward others the love that G-d has bestowed upon us.