Is Father Newman correct?

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Is it? The part I objected to was saying that anyone who remotely cooperated with evil by voting for Obama HADto go to confession prior to receiving communion. That’s not true. Remote cooperation may not even be a sin, and therefore does not REQUIRE confession.
And do you believe that Father Newman had not homilized on abortion in the runup to the election? That these people had no earthly way to know Church teaching, or Obama’s record, etc?

Is it not far more likely that Newman knew they had been taught because he himself had taught them?
Yes, but these folks don’t even know to care. They were told by Priests and Bishops and Lay Catechists for 30+ years all kinds of nonsense and are now functionally pagans. Are they entirely at fault for this? Or have they been victimized somewhat?
I’m sorry, but you’re a convert, as am I. We weren’t catechized at all. So how’d we figure out what the Church taught, that it was true, and that we wanted to be part of it?

Are we just smarter than those born to the faith?
 
I agree with you 110%. We must hold them accountable when their candidate takes office. We must also encourage them to help lead the fight against any evil policies he tries to enact.

Then we’ll be able to see with certainty who voted for the wrong guy for the wrong reasons, and those who voted for the wrong guy for the right reasons. 👍
Well, the time is fast approaching. The “Freedom of Choice” Act will be the 1st piece of legislation Obama ties to get through the new Congress.

I challenge each and every Catholic Obama voter to participate in the threads on this abomination.
 
54% of Catholics don’t know that the Church is pro-life and that Obama is pro-abortion?

Really?
No I doubt that this is true.

I would submit that 54% or more of Catholics, however, probably have no idea what the Church “really” teaches with regards to how we should approach our vote and the sinfulness (or lack there of) of how we cast our vote.

(Not that I think this is a valid excuse.)

I think there is a very vocal very liberal minority in the Catholic Church that is actually very well informed on the teaching and also vehemently disagree with that teaching. So just like they do with many church documents, they twist the words to suit their needs.

They not only mislead themselves but teach others to believe that if they can find any other issue on which the Pro-Death candidate might be more in line with Catholic teaching then it makes voting against the right to life all fine and dandy.

“Obama is going to stop global warming….so it’s ok that more babies die because he was elected.

“Obama is going to make sure illegal immigrants become citizens… so it’s ok that more babies die because he was elected.

“Obama is going to give everybody free health care… so it’s ok that more babies die because he was elected.

“Obama is going to pull us out of Iraq…. so it’s ok that more babies die because he was elected.

“Obama is going to rob from the rich and give the money to me… so it’s ok that more babies die because he was elected.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

For these folks, 1.2 million murders a year just do not stack up against promises like these.

Chuck
 
Note the last two questions. Then tell me that one has a “proportionate reason” for voting for the perfect NARAL candidate over the one who that abortion lobbying group declared anathema.
I won’t because I don’t. But just because I don’t see one, doesn’t mean someone else can, in good conscience. Now, I think they’re wrong, but being wrong doesn’t necessarily mean you sinned by voting for Obama. That means we can’t just say “Everyone who voted Obama is now in a state of mortal sin”
That is surely a nonzero number as well. My best friend’s mother was a pro-abortion Catholic. There are plenty of them, although these days they are curiously reluctant to proclaim themselves.
Oddly enough, I see em all the time. They’re PROUD to be pro-choice Catholics. They think either the Church is ok with them being pro-choice (and these Bishops are just reactionary fuddy-duddies) or that the Church has no business telling them who to vote for and should just stick to being a sacramental vending machine.

Obviously, somewhere along the lines, the catechesis train went off track for a while…
Again, lay the odds for me. What proportion of the 54% pro-Obama Catholics do you honestly believe to be in that category?
Right now, it sounds like 54%.
Probably very close. But, again, we cannot peek into everyone’s thought process and just flat out say that everyone who voted for Obama committed mortal sin.
If I vote for the candidate who promises to invade Canada, am I not participating in the intrinsic evil of an unjust war?
Does it really matter that I liked his economic policy in such a situation?
You are materially cooperating with evil, yes. If your proportionate reason is that you were getting a better economy, then you are in a state of sin.
So given the choice between Candidate Stalin rounding up people for gulags and firing squads and Candidate Roosevelt rounding up people to cool their heels in Nisei camps, it’s all the same to you?
A Catholic could in good conscience vote for Stalin?
If Roosevelt were promising something more heinous than Stalin besides your example, and there were no other viable candidates, yes.
Now here’s where you’re way off.
We are allowed to vote for the lesser of two evils.
We are not allowed to vote for the GREATER of two evils.
And there is no greater evil than abortion, which is ALWAYS murder and ALWAYS unjust, as the Catechism notes.
Exactly. If an Obama voter is voting for him because of his stance on abortion, they’re now objectively in a state of mortal sin for formally cooperating with evil. However, voting for Obama does not necessarily mean you were voting for him with the intent to support abortion. I know you find it unbelievable, but there ARE Catholics who voted Obama and deplore his pro-abortion stance and intend to fight him on it. Are they beyond foolish? I think so. Are they committing mortal sin? Nope.
Let’s not get too cute. Pragmatically, you’re arguing that Father Newman should have shut up, sat down, and not said anything about the majority of Catholic Obama voters in mortal sin for the sake of the minority who were simply ignorant.
I’m arguing no such thing. I’m arguing that he was wrong to suggest that material cooperation with evil necessitated confession prior to reception of communion.

You’re arguing that anyone who voted for Obama is in an objective state of mortal sin, which is flat out wrong. They may be, they may not be.
Cut the numbers any way you like, but if there were even ONE Catholic in his congregation who rejected Church teaching and voted for Obama Father Newman had the obligation to call them to repentance.
It is their soul at stake.
Given Fr Newman’s erroneous statement about material cooperation with evil requiring confession prior to receiving communion, even if ONE Catholic in his congregation voted for McCain, he’d have to do the same thing since McCain supported ESCR.

Also, you’re wrong that someone who voted for Obama necessarily rejected Church teaching.
 
Chuck, you’ve raised excellent (if disturbing) points.

Here’s something that gets lost in the proabortion happy talk----the actual statistics.

From NRLC:

nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html

Year
AGI
CDC (The CDC recognizes that it undercounts abortions for methodological reasons)

1973
744,600
615, 831

1974
898,600
763,476

1975
1,034,200
854,853

1976
1,179,300
988,267

1977
1,316,700
1,079,430

1978
1,409,600
1,157,776

1979
1,497,700
1,251,921

1980
1,553,900
1,297,606

1981
1,577,300
1,300,760

1982
1,573,900
1,303,980

1983
1,575,000
1,268,987

1984
1,577,200
1,333,521

1985
1,588,600
1,328,570

1986
1,574,000
1,328,112

1987
1,559,100
1,353,671

1988
1,590,800
1,371,285

1989
1,566,900
1,396,658

1990
1,608,600
1,429,247

1991
1,556,500
1,388,937

1992
1,528,900
1,359,146

1993
1,495,000
1,330,414

1994
1,423,000
1,267,415

1995
1,359,400
1,210,883

1996
1,360,160
1,225,937

1997
1,335,000
1,186,039

1998
1,319,000
  • 884,273
1999
1,314,000
  • 861,789
2000
1,312,990
** 857,475

2001
§ 1,303,000
** 853,485

2002
§ 1,293,000
** 854,122

2003
§1,287,000
*** 848,163

2004 §§1,287,000

The happy talkers point to the decline in the number of abortions since the 1990 peak of 1,608,600 abortions reported. The most fashionable argument of this cycle is that improved economic conditions led to this reduction----abortion restrictions had nothing to do with it.

Let’s break it down in an easy to see fashion, though—by % change year over year:

Year AGI % Change AGI
1973 744,600 0.00%
1974 898,600 20.68%
1975 1,034,200 15.09%
1976 1,179,300 14.03%
1977 1,316,700 11.65%
1978 1,409,600 7.06%
1979 1,497,700 6.25%
1980 1,553,900 3.75%
1981 1,577,300 1.51%
1982 1,573,900 -0.22%
1983 1,575,000 0.07%
1984 1,577,200 0.14%
1985 1,588,600 0.72%
1986 1,574,000 -0.92%
1987 1,559,100 -0.95%
1988 1,590,800 2.03%
1989 1,566,900 -1.50%
1990 1,608,600 2.66%
1991 1,556,500 -3.24%
1992 1,528,900 -1.77%
1993 1,495,000 -2.22%
1994 1,423,000 -4.82%
1995 1,359,400 -4.47%
1996 1,360,160 0.06%
1997 1,335,000 -1.85%
1998 1,319,000 -1.20%
1999 1,314,000 -0.38%
2000 1,313,990 0.00%
2001 1,303,000 -0.84%
2002 1,293,000 -0.77%
2003 1,287,000 -0.46%
2004 1,287,000 0.00%

From 1990-2004 (est), there was a 20% drop in abortions. Good news? Surely.

But here’s the rub. 1,287,000 babies snuffed out. Better than 1.6 million babies exterminated, surely, but 1.3 million! It’s a Holocaust every 4 years.

Moreover, the 2004 estimate only rolls the clock back to 1977. Look what happened to the number of abortions 1973-1977: they nearly doubled.

Roe v Wade was decided in 1973. Might the end to state restrictions on abortion not be the single most significant factor in the doubling of the number of abortions over that period?

After all, we’ve had bad economic times since 1977. 1977-1982 was a particularly tough time—stagflation, double digit interest rates and double-digit unemployment. Yet over that period, the number of abortions grew at a much smaller rate—30% in 1982 over 1977.

How do proabortion Catholics explain the staggering growth in abortions 1973-1977 (the immediate aftermath of Roe v. Wade) compared to the much lower growth during the worst economic crisis of the past generation?
 
I’m sorry, but you’re a convert, as am I. We weren’t catechized at all. So how’d we figure out what the Church taught, that it was true, and that we wanted to be part of it?

Are we just smarter than those born to the faith?
No, but we WANTED to come here. We ‘read ourselves’ into the Church. These folks were BORN into the Church or married into it. They had a very mixed bag as far as catechesis went (if they had any at all. Their parents might have been twice a year Catholics). The Church has been a mess for a while here in the states (I think the 54% proves it).

On the bright side, things are turning in a better direction. I honestly expected even MORE ‘Catholics’ to vote Obama and I’m pleased that so many actually listened to their Bishops (and that the Bishops spoke up in the first place!!)
 
Abortion, along with euthanasia, are intrinsically evil. They do trump other issues, which may or may not be evil depending upon the circumstances, such as war or capital punishment. This is a consistent teaching of the USCCB and the Catholic Church. You are absolutely wrong.
I am sorry, I am constrained by what the Church actually teaches, perhaps you could look at the following and correct my understanding. First, from Rome, to all Catholics, on voting:
  1. The complex array of today’s problems branches out from here, including some never faced by past generations. Scientific progress has resulted in advances that are unsettling for the consciences of men and women and call for solutions that respect ethical principles in a coherent and fundamental way. At the same time, legislative proposals are put forward which, heedless of the consequences for the existence and future of human beings with regard to the formation of culture and social behaviour, attack the very inviolability of human life. Catholics, in this difficult situation, have the right and the duty to recall society to a deeper understanding of human life and to the responsibility of everyone in this regard. John Paul II, continuing the constant teaching of the Church, has reiterated many times that those who are directly involved in lawmaking bodies have a «grave and clear obligation to oppose» any law that attacks human life. For them, as for every Catholic, it is impossible to promote such laws or to vote for them.[19] As John Paul II has taught in his Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae regarding the situation in which it is not possible to overturn or completely repeal a law allowing abortion which is already in force or coming up for a vote, «an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality».[20]
In this context, it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals. The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

There is emphasis in the original, but I do not know how to copy it, sorry, but I added some bold points.

First point, it is never licit to support an attack on human life. Next, it is noted that John Paul did introduce the concept of limiting the harm, but the document continues to explain that the concept cannot be used to compromise on other moral principles. We know this is the correct interpretation of JPII’s principle, because he approved the Doctrinal Note.

However, when I repeat this you assert that I am making false statements, misrepresenting the faith. Of course, my interpretation could be in error, but look at how the US Bishops have explained it to us:
  1. Two temptations in public life can distort the Church’s defense of human life and dignity:
  1. The first is a moral equivalence that makes no ethical distinctions between different kinds of issues involving human life and dignity. The direct and intentional destruction of innocent human life from the moment of conception until natural death is always wrong and is not just one issue among many. It must always be opposed.
  2. The second is the misuse of these necessary moral distinctions as a way of dismissing or ignoring other serious threats to human life and dignity. Racism and other unjust discrimination, the use of the death penalty, resorting to unjust war, the use of torture, war crimes, the failure to respond to those who are suffering from hunger or a lack of health care, or an unjust immigration policy are all serious moral issues that challenge our consciences and require us to act. These are not optional concerns which can be dismissed. Catholics are urged to seriously consider Church teaching on these issues. Although choices about how best to respond to these and other compelling threats to human life and dignity are matters for principled debate and decision, this does not make them optional concerns or permit Catholics to dismiss or ignore Church teaching on these important issues.
Clearly not every Catholic can be actively involved on each of these concerns, but we need to support one another as our community of faith defends human life and dignity wherever it is threatened. We are not factions, but one family of faith fulfilling the mission of Jesus Christ.
There is no doubt that the bishops are interpreting the exact same document in the same way as me, because they continue:
  1. The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith made a similar point:
Then quoted the second paragraph from my quote above.

So, we have a Doctrinal Note from Rome which is directed at the lay faithful, and the USCCB reaffirming my understanding of it. How, exactly,*do my comments warrant an accusation regarding my adherence to my obligations to the 8th Commandment?
 
Oddly enough, I see em all the time. They’re PROUD to be pro-choice Catholics. They think either the Church is ok with them being pro-choice (and these Bishops are just reactionary fuddy-duddies) or that the Church has no business telling them who to vote for and should just stick to being a sacramental vending machine.
Ahem—they are in a state of mortal sin, are they not?
Probably very close. But, again, we cannot peek into everyone’s thought process and just flat out say that everyone who voted for Obama committed mortal sin.
Why do you think it is necessary to peek into anyone’s thought processes?

By your reasoning, canon law regarding procured abortion — excommunication upon the commission of the act itself — couldn’t possibly exist. After all, what about the thought process of the abortionist? Can we really say that ALL abortionists believe the unborn child to be a human being? How dare we!
You are materially cooperating with evil, yes. If your proportionate reason is that you were getting a better economy, then you are in a state of sin.
Ahem—that is precisely AgingCatholic’s argument, is it not?
If Roosevelt were promising something more heinous than Stalin besides your example, and there were no other viable candidates, yes.
Take it on its face, as presented. Don’t seek an out—just answer the question. The purpose of the analogy is to take abortion out of the picture for the moment and so illuminate the principle.
Exactly. If an Obama voter is voting for him because of his stance on abortion, they’re now objectively in a state of mortal sin for formally cooperating with evil. However, voting for Obama does not necessarily mean you were voting for him with the intent to support abortion. I know you find it unbelievable, but there ARE Catholics who voted Obama and deplore his pro-abortion stance and intend to fight him on it. Are they beyond foolish? I think so. Are they committing mortal sin? Nope.
They’re going to fight him by electing him?

C’mon, you can’t believe this argument.
I’m arguing no such thing. I’m arguing that he was wrong to suggest that material cooperation with evil necessitated confession prior to reception of communion.
No, I’m afraid your wrong. Take abortion out of the equation—if we’re talking about any sin, does not material cooperation with evil in a grave matter not constitute a mortal sin?

For example, I didn’t kill anybody, but I conspired with someone to do so.

Mortal sin or not?
You’re arguing that anyone who voted for Obama is in an objective state of mortal sin, which is flat out wrong. They may be, they may not be.
No, you’re dodging by playing the all/none game.

There may be a couple of people out there who are too ignorant or too crazy to know better. I’ll say 1%, a high estimate. The other 53% simply rejected Church teaching and voted Obama. They do not care about abortion, and they surely do not care that Obama’s going to force Catholic doctors and hospitals to perform them.

Are such people in a state of mortal sin or not?

Let’s not play canon defense lawyer. Do you honestly believe that Father Newman should have sat down and shut up because a few might have been wrongly convicted and gone to Confession one more time than they had to in consequence?

And how big a sin would Father Newman’s be in that case given that he’s taking a stand on behalf of the millions of babies slaughtered with the support now of a majority of voting Catholics?
Given Fr Newman’s erroneous statement about material cooperation with evil requiring confession prior to receiving communion, even if ONE Catholic in his congregation voted for McCain, he’d have to do the same thing since McCain supported ESCR.
You still refuse to understand proportionate reason. I don’t think you’re invincibly ignorant; I think you simply refuse to admit the point.
Also, you’re wrong that someone who voted for Obama necessarily rejected Church teaching.
Oh, please. The all or none garbage again.

Quit hiding behind “necessarily” and lawyering.

Simple moral clarity will do. God isn’t a lawyer.
 
AC, your own quotes refute your position.

Read them.

N.B.
it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals.
Obama, far from mitigating abortion, is actively removing restrictions to it.

AC, do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

“Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.”

Yes or no?
 
Originally Posted by chris molter
Oddly enough, I see em all the time. They’re PROUD to be pro-choice Catholics. They think either the Church is ok with them being pro-choice (and these Bishops are just reactionary fuddy-duddies) or that the Church has no business telling them who to vote for and should just stick to being a sacramental vending machine.

Ahem—they are in a state of mortal sin, are they not?
Probably, yeah.
Quote:
Probably very close. But, again, we cannot peek into everyone’s thought process and just flat out say that everyone who voted for Obama committed mortal sin.
Why do you think it is necessary to peek into anyone’s thought processes?
By your reasoning, canon law regarding procured abortion — excommunication upon the commission of the act itself — couldn’t possibly exist. After all, what about the thought process of the abortionist? Can we really say that ALL abortionists believe the unborn child to be a human being? How dare we!
No, you’re confusing voting (which is not intrinsically evil) with murder (which is).

You’re also conflating formal and material cooperation with evil.
Quote:
You are materially cooperating with evil, yes. If your proportionate reason is that you were getting a better economy, then you are in a state of sin.
Ahem—that is precisely AgingCatholic’s argument, is it not?
I’m not sure, I haven’t read his argument.
Quote:
If Roosevelt were promising something more heinous than Stalin besides your example, and there were no other viable candidates, yes.
Take it on its face, as presented. Don’t seek an out—just answer the question. The purpose of the analogy is to take abortion out of the picture for the moment and so illuminate the principle.
Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or No. Don’t seek an out, just answer the question.

Analogy fails when it’s illuminating a strawman
Quote:
Exactly. If an Obama voter is voting for him because of his stance on abortion, they’re now objectively in a state of mortal sin for formally cooperating with evil. However, voting for Obama does not necessarily mean you were voting for him with the intent to support abortion. I know you find it unbelievable, but there ARE Catholics who voted Obama and deplore his pro-abortion stance and intend to fight him on it. Are they beyond foolish? I think so. Are they committing mortal sin? Nope.
They’re going to fight him by electing him?
C’mon, you can’t believe this argument.
It doesn’t matter if I believe it. It matters if THEY believe it.
Quote:
I’m arguing no such thing. I’m arguing that he was wrong to suggest that material cooperation with evil necessitated confession prior to reception of communion.
No, I’m afraid your wrong. Take abortion out of the equation—if we’re talking about any sin, does not material cooperation with evil in a grave matter not constitute a mortal sin?
For example, I didn’t kill anybody, but I conspired with someone to do so.
Mortal sin or not?
Yes, since what you describe is formal cooperation with evil.
Quote:
You’re arguing that anyone who voted for Obama is in an objective state of mortal sin, which is flat out wrong. They may be, they may not be.
No, you’re dodging by playing the all/none game.
I’m not dodging. And you’re playing an all/none game by stating that without reservation EVERY CATHOLIC who voted for Obama committed mortal sin.
There may be a couple of people out there who are too ignorant or too crazy to know better. I’ll say 1%, a high estimate. The other 53% simply rejected Church teaching and voted Obama. They do not care about abortion, and they surely do not care that Obama’s going to force Catholic doctors and hospitals to perform them.
Are such people in a state of mortal sin or not?
Again, you’re assuming voting Obama meant rejecting Church teaching.
Let’s not play canon defense lawyer. Do you honestly believe that Father Newman should have sat down and shut up because a few might have been wrongly convicted and gone to Confession one more time than they had to in consequence?
I’m not playing canon lawyer. I am (to the best of my knowledge) reiterating Catholic teaching on formal/material cooperation with sin, proportionate reasons, and prudential judgement. I’m open to correction as I’m certainly no canon lawyer or theologian.

I never said he should have sat down OR shut up. Quite the opposite. You’re now attributing to me things I never said, despite my clarifications to the contrary. Please cease doing so. I’m saying that remote material cooperation is not necessarily a sin and, therefore, that part of Father Newman’s statement was inaccurate.
Quote:
Given Fr Newman’s erroneous statement about material cooperation with evil requiring confession prior to receiving communion, even if ONE Catholic in his congregation voted for McCain, he’d have to do the same thing since McCain supported ESCR.
You still refuse to understand proportionate reason. I don’t think you’re invincibly ignorant; I think you simply refuse to admit the point.
No, I’m pretty sure I have it right. But going all ad hominem helps, doesn’t it? Don’t worry, I won’t hold it against you.
Quote:
Also, you’re wrong that someone who voted for Obama necessarily rejected Church teaching.
Oh, please. The all or none garbage again.
Quit hiding behind “necessarily” and lawyering.
Simple moral clarity will do. God isn’t a lawyer.
This is what we like to call “attacking to the rear” in Army lingo.

I’m sorry that Catholic teaching on morals and sin is made muddy by our fallen world, but I’m not hiding. And I’m not giving you “garbage”.
 
I’ll offer up some food for thought here. This is from Chris Altieri, a PhD candidate at Pontifical Gregorian University (blog: fidetrat.blogspot.com/):🙂
Fr. Newman’s preamble is perhaps the best statement of the status questionis that I have seen anywhere (this fellow has also read his A. MacIntyre, it seems). In part II, Fr. Newman shows that pastoral sensitivity needs “anatomy” in order to be really effective, and that filial piety is perfectly compatible, indeed a prerequisite of the true and responsible exercise of human freedom.
The formulation of (I), however, is theologically imprecise and misrepresents the standing doctrine on the matter, as articulated in then Card. Ratzinger’s 2004 response. I do not question Fr.’s good faith, and I am in broad agreement with his statements. Nevertheless, as a strict, technical matter, (I) is incorrect, as the following shall demonstrate:
  1. (I) begins with the words, “Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exits constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil”. This formulation presents two difficulties, to wit: a) voting for a pro-choice candidate is always co-operation with evil, regardless of whether there is a “plausible” pro-life candidate. Thus, the formulation gives the false impression that the moral status of the act is not only possibly conditioned, but entirely established by circumstance, and this is false. b) while voting for a pro-choice candidate is always to co-operate with evil, there are different kinds of co-operation. There is formal co-operation, direct material co-operation, and remote material co-operation. In the voting booth, the kind of co-operation in which one engages by pulling the lever for a pro-choice candidate is determined by the reason, and the moral reasoning process that has brought one to the judgment that informs the act. E.G. if one votes for pro-choice candidate N because of N’s pro-choice stance, then one formally co-operates in evil and should not present oneself for Holy Communion. If one votes for N despite N’s pro-choice stance, then one engages in remote material co-operation, and remote material co-operation is morally permissible in the presence of proportionate reasons. Further, and most importantly, the judgment regarding the presence of proportionate reasons is one of prudence, a judgment that each individual must make, by exercising his practical reason; while conscience informs practical reason, it does not substitute it.
There are certainly grounds for disagreeing with the prudential judgment of people who voted for president-elect Obama; no such grounds, however well established, can provide a window into the conscience.
From the preceding, it follows that Fr. Newman’s conclusion is unwarranted. It does not follow that, “Catholics who [vote for pro-choice candidates, etc.] place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ’s Church and under the judgment of divine law.”
That, “Persons in this condition [outside the full communion, etc.] should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation,” is certainly true. Church teaching does not warrant Fr. Newman’s sweeping judgment, however, as a correct application of the pertinent principles of moral reasoning informed by Catholic faith shows.
I think his analysis is the best I’ve seen so far.

I also agree with one of the commenters on Mark Shea’s blog who provided this superb insight:
I think voting for Obama even if it was RM cooperation was grave matter. Faithful Citizenship says that your proportionate reason to do it must itself be a grave reason, meaning that the vote is grave in the first place.
Generally whether there is a proportionate reason or not is a judgment call that might go either way. But here, objectively, there was no proportionate reason in this circumstance because this was actually a very extreme circumstance. It is within a priest’s purview to look at an extreme situation and say that no way was there a proportionate reason, and that the vote was not only grave but extremely grave in the circumstances given what Obama will do that McCain would not have done.
A separate issue is whether each voter is subjectively culpable. But the priest doesn’t have to know, in advance, that everyone would be culpable, in order to issue a broadsweeping warning about grave sin. “Go to confession first” doesn’t necessarily mean “you have committed mortal sin.” It means “you may well have committed mortal sin, and in confession I will ask you questions to determine whether you did, and if you did and you are sorry I will give absolution; either way we will get the matter resolved without you risking an unworthy communion.”
 
No, you’re confusing voting (which is not intrinsically evil) with murder (which is).
It is when the vote cast condemns millions to death, isn’t it?

The bishops surely seemed to think so—thus the exhortations before the election.
You’re also conflating formal and material cooperation with evil.
If you’re going to lawyer, define your terms.

And let’s see evidence that the Church makes that distinction. I certainly don’t see it in the posted Catechism passages, but perhaps I missed it.
Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or No. Don’t seek an out, just answer the question.
It’s not that at all. It is an historical analogy which is rather inconvenient for those who say the absence of a perfect Catholic presidential candidate means one can vote for the most anti-Catholic presidential candidate with impunity.
Analogy fails when it’s illuminating a strawman
It’s illuminating the principle of proportionality, since you don’t understand that choosing the lesser of two evils is not synonymous with choosing the greater of two evils.
It doesn’t matter if I believe it. It matters if THEY believe it.
That’s Protestantism. We don’t worship the idol of individual belief.
Yes, since what you describe is formal cooperation with evil.
And what if this person ran on the platform of murdering Joe and promised that the first thing he would do if elected would be to murder Joe?
I’m not dodging. And you’re playing an all/none game by stating that without reservation EVERY CATHOLIC who voted for Obama committed mortal sin.
Quote me. Where did I say “every Catholic who voted for Obama committed mortal sin”?
Again, you’re assuming voting Obama meant rejecting Church teaching.
How precisely is voting with Obama consistent with Church teaching? AC’s utterly failed to make the case—take your shot.
I’m not playing canon lawyer. I am (to the best of my knowledge) reiterating Catholic teaching on formal/material cooperation with sin, proportionate reasons, and prudential judgement. I’m open to correction as I’m certainly no canon lawyer or theologian.
References would help.
I never said he should have sat down OR shut up. Quite the opposite. You’re now attributing to me things I never said, despite my clarifications to the contrary. Please cease doing so.
You do understand what “practically arguing” means, right?
I’m saying that remote material cooperation is not necessarily a sin and, therefore, that part of Father Newman’s statement was inaccurate.
You haven’t made your case, nor provided evidence for it. Lay it out so we can all see.
No, I’m pretty sure I have it right. But going all ad hominem helps, doesn’t it? Don’t worry, I won’t hold it against you.
Well, I’m thankful for that.
This is what we like to call “attacking to the rear” in Army lingo.
In Air Force lingo, it’s called “fire and steel on time and on target.”

Clausewitz would say it was attacking your center of gravity.
I’m sorry that Catholic teaching on morals and sin is made muddy by our fallen world, but I’m not hiding. And I’m not giving you “garbage”.
It’s only muddy because people such as yourself attempt to make it so, for whatever reason.

It would be easier for people to examine their consciences appropriately in light of Church teaching were there more Father Newmans, and more of us who support him.
 
I’ll offer up some food for thought here. This is from Chris Altieri, a PhD candidate at Pontifical Gregorian University (blog: fidetrat.blogspot.com/):🙂

I think his analysis is the best I’ve seen so far.

I also agree with one of the commenters on Mark Shea’s blog who provided this superb insight:
Okay, but a PhD candidate and a commenter on a blog have what teaching authority within the Church?

Shall I see your PhD candidate and blog commenter and raise you an Archbishop Chaput?

You see the trouble, right?

And of course your opinion is not in question—your argument is.
 
How do proabortion Catholics explain the staggering growth in abortions 1973-1977 (the immediate aftermath of Roe v. Wade) compared to the much lower growth during the worst economic crisis of the past generation?
You demonstrate why people don’t trust statistics. Namely, that they are so frequently abused.

You are doing three very, very dishonest things. First, you are using total abortions. But this metric does not really tell us much, because demographics are not constant. The total population size has changed, as well as our age distribution. The two metrics normally used in honest discussions about abortion rates are the “abortion rate” (% of child bearing age women having abortions) and the “birth rate” (% of child bearing age women having babies).

These two figures, in relationship to each other, give us our best picture of actual abortion prevalence.

As I have already noted, the problem with studying abortion rates is that they appear to put your political reasoning in serious question. Abortion rates have declined for several decades, but declined fastest under the Clinton Presidency. The rates have continued to decline under Bush, but at a slower rate. In a few states, the rates have actually reversed.

You called this ‘lies’ and pointed me to the Guttmacher Institute, but that data says the same thing, as does the CDC’s legal abortion survey program. You really don’t want to use the Guttmacher data to bolster your position, because the WHO study they did concluded that legal status plays only a very small role in abortion rates, and the role is shrinking because of the growing availability of chemical abortificants. This does not matter to me, because my position is that morality and expediency are two different issues, but you are trying to assert morality via statistical evidence.

The second statistically dishonest thing you did is that you did not apply the statistical margin of error to your data. The CDC undercounts because of a fairly rigid standard, but the higher numbers are arrived at predictively. By treating these numbers as literal and true, you are claiming to have calculated meaningful trends, but your trends are all within the statistical margin of error of the original data. Unless a trend exceeds the statistical margin of error for the data, it is dishonest to assert that it even exists, let alone is causal proof of anything.

The third dishonest thing you did is present statistical data to bolster a point, but neglected to note that the original researchers reached exactly the opposite conclusion. Catholics who are concerned about a connection between poverty and abortion have to findings in the data you are using to bolster their beliefs. First, abortions are disproportionately obtained by the poor. Second, although there is a general trend downward over the last few decades, proportional rate fluctuations track several economic indicators closely.

I am not one of those medical doctors who is convinced that I am automatically a good scientist, however I did my residency in orthopedic surgery at a research hospital and both my fellowships were directly involved in research. I also participated in numerous medical research projects while in practice. If you would like to discuss this as a matter of math and statistics, I would be happy to oblige. But instead of a sports car, my midlife crisis was to study at CUA, so I think that the theological aspects of your arguments are worth discussing as well.

Consider how you start the quote above. Anyone who disagreed with you politically is pro abortion. You, yourself, voted for a political candidate whose position on abortion is intrinsically evil, but any other political decision is, according to you, inarguably evil and morally incorrect.

Rome is not much help, since, as you pointed out, abortion is referred to as a moral absolute, Even the principle of limiting the harm has been seriously limited by Doctrinal Note. But we can look to the bishops:
  1. When all candidates hold a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, the conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation, may decide to vote for the candidate deemed less likely to advance such a morally flawed position and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods.
  1. In making these decisions, it is essential for Catholics to be guided by a well-formed conscience that recognizes that all issues do not carry the same moral weight and that the moral obligation to oppose intrinsically evil acts has a special claim on our consciences and our actions. These decisions should take into account a candidate’s commitments, character, integrity, and ability to influence a given issue.

    In the end, this is a decision to be made by each Catholic guided by a conscience formed by Catholic moral teaching.
In reviewing your posts it appears that you reject three aspects of this quote (highlighted). First, you seem to reject that a moral dilemma exists, since there is only one path (yours) and it is indisputably just.

Second, you have condemned Catholics who have chosen to vote for less viable candidates or not vote to avoid any cooperation with intrinsic evil as being morally remiss.

Finally, you reject the proposition that this is a moral decision that must be made by each Catholic in accordance with the certainty of his/her moral conscience.

This opens a ton of interesting theological questions, but lets start with two:

1) Are you asserting that, in this instance, the bishops are not acting as “authentic teachers”, that is, teachers “empowered with the authority of Christ” (Lumen Gentium #25)?

2) Are you asserting that you, yourself, are an authentic teacher, “empowered with the authority of Christ”?
 
If you’re going to lawyer, define your terms.

And let’s see evidence that the Church makes that distinction. I certainly don’t see it in the posted Catechism passages, but perhaps I missed it.
Try Evangelium Vitae for starters. Not all of Catholicism is in the Catechism.

Without the distinctions between formal, remote material and proximate material cooperation with evil, we’d all be committing mortal sin whenever we paid taxes or drank a coffee from Starbucks or pretty much anything.

(I’ll see if I can locate something concise with all the terminology)
It’s illuminating the principle of proportionality, since you don’t understand that choosing the lesser of two evils is not synonymous with choosing the greater of two evils.
I understand it perfectly. What you’re not seeing is that Catholics can disagree on WHO the greater of two evils are as a matter of prudential judgement.
That’s Protestantism. We don’t worship the idol of individual belief.
You’re missing the point.
And what if this person ran on the platform of murdering Joe and promised that the first thing he would do if elected would be to murder Joe?
What if both candidates promised to murder people, but you figured the guy who promised to kill Joe wouldn’t be able to, given that Joe lives in a concrete bunker, but the other guy would be able to kill the person he promised to kill because he lived next door?
Quote me. Where did I say “every Catholic who voted for Obama committed mortal sin”?
If they didn’t commit mortal sin, then why do they NEED to go to confession prior to communion? If this isn’t what you’re saying, then what the hell are we arguing about? 🤷
How precisely is voting with Obama consistent with Church teaching? AC’s utterly failed to make the case—take your shot.
I won’t because I don’t believe it is.
You do understand what “practically arguing” means, right?
Yes, and I don’t think you’ve tried to make a case that “sitting down and shutting up” follows from what I’ve been saying. You just asserted it.
In Air Force lingo, it’s called “fire and steel on time and on target.”
Clausewitz would say it was attacking your center of gravity.
Nice to know I’m a target. Unfortunately, in this case, it’s fratricide.
It’s only muddy because people such as yourself attempt to make it so, for whatever reason.
Personally, I think the whole thing is fairly straightforward, but it took me a while to figure it all out with the help of some folks much smarter than I.
It would be easier for people to examine their consciences appropriately in light of Church teaching were there more Father Newmans, and more of us who support him.
I agree. I think you have me confused with someone who doesn’t care for Fr Newman and doesn’t support him. I think he’s terriffic and I applaud his actions, with just a couple of small quibbles.
 
Okay, but a PhD candidate and a commenter on a blog have what teaching authority within the Church?

Shall I see your PhD candidate and blog commenter and raise you an Archbishop Chaput?

You see the trouble, right?

And of course your opinion is not in question—your argument is.
My argument is that voting Obama does not automatically constitute a state of mortal sin which requires confession and absolution prior to reception of communion.

Please show me where Archbishop Chaput (love the guy, btw!) has stated anything to the contrary, or contradicted what Chris Altieri’s summary says.

did you even READ the comment? 🤷

I still get this feeling you think I’m arguing something I’m not. We’re more in agreement than not.
 
You demonstrate why people don’t trust statistics. Namely, that they are so frequently abused.
I do stats work for a living. People don’t trust statistics because they’re hard to abuse when access to the data is provided. Thus your trouble.
You are doing three very, very dishonest things.
What, like breaking the 8th Commandment (again)?
First, you are using total abortions. But this metric does not really tell us much, because demographics are not constant.
Guttmacher Institute uses total abortions, NRLC uses total abortions, I used total abortions.

If every abortion is a tragedy, as you said above, then everyone should be counted, shouldn’t it?
The total population size has changed, as well as our age distribution.
The Baby Boomers leaving childbearing age would dramatically drop the number of abortions all things being equal because there are so many more of them than Gen X and Gen Y.

Statistics for number of Americans of childbearing age (loosely 18-49) are easily obtainable—go do the math.
The two metrics normally used in honest discussions about abortion rates are the “abortion rate” (% of child bearing age women having abortions) and the “birth rate” (% of child bearing age women having babies).
Well, there goes that honesty again. Funny, but I graduated from a service academy, and our definition of honesty was “I will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does.”

But in the herky-jerky funhouse mirror of morality AC-style, a Catholic who supports abortion is moral while a Catholic who votes Republican is not.

As for the rate, the dishonest application of such normalization is when undertaken to minimize the magnitude of things.

For example, were I dishonest and talking about plane crashes on my lousy airline, I’d do it in terms of crashes per hours flown. Why? Because it’s a more abstract number.

The more honest approach is “10 crashes in the last two months.”

The difference is in the catastrophic nature of even one crash.

Or even one abortion.

Your approach would allow the Khmer Rouge to emphasize the relatively low number of Cambodians slaughtered daily—hey, only a small percent of Cambodia’s total population took the bullet in the rice paddy today!

But your goal is ever to minimize abortion, isn’t it?
These two figures, in relationship to each other, give us our best picture of actual abortion prevalence.
No, those two figures are an attempt to hide an ugly reality in statistical abstraction.

And when you do the math — if you do it — you won’t be able to wish away 1973-1977.
As I have already noted, the problem with studying abortion rates is that they appear to put your political reasoning in serious question. Abortion rates have declined for several decades, but declined fastest under the Clinton Presidency. The rates have continued to decline under Bush, but at a slower rate. In a few states, the rates have actually reversed.
The decline started under Bush I and has gone right on to the present. But you apparently have recanted on your notion that they rose under Bush II.

And as anyone with a passing knowledge of stats know, this is represented in the phenomenon known as “regression to the mean”.

The mean # abortions for 1973-1989 (just before the 1990 peak) is 1,401,024 dead babies. The standard deviation is 271,896 dead babies. So the question statistians would ask is “How low would abortions have to be before we could rule out normal variation with a 95% level of confidence?” The answer is 1,401,024 - (3*271896) = 585,338 dead babies.

We are currently at 1.3 MM.

Normal variation.

Now, you can try to build a regression model putting in your favorite Obama policies and predicting the number of abortions, but it will have to drop to 585,338 before you can say with confidence that those policies have improved the situation.
You called this ‘lies’ and pointed me to the Guttmacher Institute, but that data says the same thing, as does the CDC’s legal abortion survey program. You really don’t want to use the Guttmacher data to bolster your position, because the WHO study they did concluded that legal status plays only a very small role in abortion rates, and the role is shrinking because of the growing availability of chemical abortificants.
Yes, the claim that abortions rose under Bush is a lie.

I use data which cannot be claimed to be favorable to my position. It’s the honest thing to do. Try it.
This does not matter to me, because my position is that morality and expediency are two different issues, but you are trying to assert morality via statistical evidence.
And there you go making claims about what I try to do. I told you what I did—I debunked your bogus claims, for which you continue to provide either no evidence or evidence which contradicts your claims.
 
The second statistically dishonest thing you did is that you did not apply the statistical margin of error to your data. The CDC undercounts because of a fairly rigid standard, but the higher numbers are arrived at predictively.
Okay, you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.

CDC admits they undercount abortions because of nonstandard reporting procedures in different states. This increases the measurement error of the CDC data set as well as skews it toward undercounting.

Mind you, Guttmacher is PRO-ABORTION (so you should love them, right?). Also, the Guttmacher set, having a larger magnitude, should magnify % change year over year.
By treating these numbers as literal and true, you are claiming to have calculated meaningful trends, but your trends are all within the statistical margin of error of the original data. Unless a trend exceeds the statistical margin of error for the data, it is dishonest to assert that it even exists, let alone is causal proof of anything.
Okay, run the numbers for 1973-1977 and 1978-2004. Check normality first (Anderson-Darling or Komogonov-Smirnov) and run a 2-sample T. Give me the p-value.
The third dishonest thing you did is present statistical data to bolster a point, but neglected to note that the original researchers reached exactly the opposite conclusion.
Ahem—data is data. Surprisingly, conclusions don’t always follow from data. Since my conclusion was simply drawn from the data—univariately—you’ll have to demonstrate my error mathematically. I’ll wait.
Catholics who are concerned about a connection between poverty and abortion have to findings in the data you are using to bolster their beliefs.
Let’s see those links.
First, abortions are disproportionately obtained by the poor.
So let’s see those p-values! Chi-squared, probably.
Second, although there is a general trend downward over the last few decades, proportional rate fluctuations track several economic indicators closely.
Well, since you just lectured me on not claiming trends that aren’t outside the SEM (btw, you’ll note the 585,338 number will be coming back on this point), now YOU’RE going to claim a trend?
I am not one of those medical doctors who is convinced that I am automatically a good scientist, however I did my residency in orthopedic surgery at a research hospital and both my fellowships were directly involved in research. I also participated in numerous medical research projects while in practice. If you would like to discuss this as a matter of math and statistics, I would be happy to oblige.
Yes, run the numbers. Invoke authority all you want to; let’s see the data.
But instead of a sports car, my midlife crisis was to study at CUA, so I think that the theological aspects of your arguments are worth discussing as well.
All the rest is red herrings. Lurkers, please note that AC has once again refused to answer regarding agreement with Catholic teaching on abortion.

Which those wont to claim dishonesty might raise an eyebrow at.
 
My argument is that voting Obama does not automatically constitute a state of mortal sin which requires confession and absolution prior to reception of communion.
You’re arguing angels dancing on a head of a pin here. Father Newman was dealing with a pastoral issue, not an abstract one.

You still haven’t addressed how you know he didn’t personally instruct his congregation as to Catholic teaching on this subject.
Please show me where Archbishop Chaput (love the guy, btw!) has stated anything to the contrary, or contradicted what Chris Altieri’s summary says.
I will, although you’ve ignored similar requests I’ve made.

Read this:

firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=1073
did you even READ the comment? 🤷
Yes, of course, but unless the handle was BenedictXVI and the IP address was in The Vatican, it’s just somebody’s opinion, right?

It doesn’t even matter if I agree with it. The issue is Church teaching.
I still get this feeling you think I’m arguing something I’m not. We’re more in agreement than not.
No, I get the feeling that you’re handing ammunition to the enemy, to extend your analogy. You can quibble over whether or not that’s formal cooperation or not, but to pretend that invincible ignorance will protect the vast majority of the 54% of Catholics who voted for Obama once they face Christ hurts, not helps, our brothers and sisters.

Indeed, read AgingCatholic’s posts and PM me if you’d like as to whether or not you believe in your gut AC is invincibly ignorant or knowingly rejecting Church teaching on abortion.

I’ve given the courtesy of asking directly, but AC just dodges it.
 
And in case pro-abortion Catholics try to wriggle out of their apostasy by claiming that “we don’t know” when human life begins—Nancy Pelosi’s position----you might find this white paper interesting:

westchesterinstitute.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=351:white-paper&catid=64:white-papers&Itemid=113

As the Catechism says, “human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception”. (Although some folks have a mighty strange definition of “must”).
 
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