Is fish on Fridays cheating?

[jtodisco]

I’ve been a little bothered by this for a while now and with Lent fast approaching I figured I’d ask others for their opinion on the matter. During Lent we are asked to abstain from meat on Ash Wednesday, the Fridays of Lent, and Good Friday. However, eating fish is permitted because (for some reason that is beyond my current understanding) it is not considered meat. This seems like spliting hairs to me. I personally think fish counts as meat and though I am not a vegetarian myself I do have many friends who are and they too would view eating fish as eating meat. I forget where I originally heard this but a comical vegetarian quote comes to mind, “I don’t eat anything that had a face.”

The second part of my question goes beyond whether or not you feel that fish is meat or not. I’ve noticed that most people (with the exception of those who dislike or cannot eat fish) get *really excited *for their fish fries during Lent. It’s a big treat for most people (myself included). Isn’t Lent supposed to be (in part) about sacrifice? Aren’t Fridays during Lent supposed to be spent contemplating Our Lord’s Passion and Crucifixion, which is part of the reason why we abstain from eating meat?

Now before anyone accuses me of being a spoil sport I will say that I do believe a lot of good comes from the tradition of eating fish on Fridays during Lent. The most immediate goods that result from this custom that I’ve seen are: 1) it gives people a reason to come together in a way relating to our shared faith, whether it’s families going out together for dinner or people meeting with their fellow parishioners at a church sponsored dinner. 2) it gives the various parishes and Catholic schools an opportunity to raise some badly needed funds by selling fish fries to local Catholics.

 

[Corki]

First of all, remember that all the rules for the Church are written in Latin and then translated to various languages. In Latin, “carnes” does not include fish. Fish is a completely separate category of food.

As for the fish fries, in my experience people get excited about them because they are something that is part of our Catholic identity. It’s not that the fish is so delicious or that the meal is extravagant. It’s something that brings us together as Catholics.

 

[EmeraldWings]

I’ve been a little bothered by this for a while now and with Lent fast approaching I figured I’d ask others for their opinion on the matter. During Lent we are asked to abstain from meat on Ash Wednesday, the Fridays of Lent, and Good Friday. However, eating fish is permitted because (for some reason that is beyond my current understanding) it is not considered meat. This seems like spliting hairs to me. I personally think fish counts as meat and though I am not a vegetarian myself I do have many friends who are and they too would view eating fish as eating meat. I forget where I originally heard this but a comical vegetarian quote comes to mind, “I don’t eat anything that had a face.”

The second part of my question goes beyond whether or not you feel that fish is meat or not. I’ve noticed that most people (with the exception of those who dislike or cannot eat fish) get *really excited *for their fish fries during Lent. It’s a big treat for most people (myself included). Isn’t Lent supposed to be (in part) about sacrifice? Aren’t Fridays during Lent supposed to be spent contemplating Our Lord’s Passion and Crucifixion, which is part of the reason why we abstain from eating meat?

Now before anyone accuses me of being a spoil sport I will say that I do believe a lot of good comes from the tradition of eating fish on Fridays during Lent. The most immediate goods that result from this custom that I’ve seen are: 1) it gives people a reason to come together in a way relating to our shared faith, whether it’s families going out together for dinner or people meeting with their fellow parishioners at a church sponsored dinner. 2) it gives the various parishes and Catholic schools an opportunity to raise some badly needed funds by selling fish fries to local Catholics.

fish is meat, but it’s cold blooded, we abstain from warm blooded meat.
so it’s not just meat, but specifically warm blooded meat, because Christ was warm blooded.

however, it is not especially important that it be meat, as we read in Can.1251 - “Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.”

meat use to be a much greater sacrifice to make than it is now, although for some people it still is, but during lent i think it’s more important to abstain from meat, simply because we are never told otherwise, but it is always an obligation to make some kind of sacrifice on Friday…but i would talk to your priest about that, or even better, your bishop, who is really the authority in that area.

 

[achmafooma]

It’s not cheating

BUT, having said that, I personally love seafood, so during Lent I usually try to keep my Fridays vegetarian in order to maintain the spirit of penance. That’s just something I choose to do to help myself stay focused.

I know some folks who also choose to reduce their food intake on Fridays during lent…so maybe they skip lunch and are somewhat uncomfortable/hungry during the afternoon as part of their chosen penance, but then go to the fish fry and have some fun with fellow parishioners in the evening.

But you don’t have to do any of this. As long as you abstain from meat on the Fridays of Lent, and have an attitude of penance and remembrance of Christ’s suffering, you are fulfilling your obligations. It’s up to you whether you wish to go beyond those requirements, which you are certainly welcome to do.

God bless you!

 

[PrayHarder]

My sister and I have this disagreement all the time. She says that she doesn’t feel like giving up meat on Fridays because having fish is not a sacrifice since she loves fish. But that is sort of like trying to have your cake and eat it too. Basically, she doesn’t give up either because giving up one is not a big deal for her.

If giving up meat and eating fish isn’t a big deal to you, then try some other form of fasting and sacrifice.

 

[LilyM]

My sister and I have this disagreement all the time. She says that she doesn’t feel like giving up meat on Fridays because having fish is not a sacrifice since she loves fish. But that is sort of like trying to have your cake and eat it too. Basically, she doesn’t give up either because giving up one is not a big deal for her.

If giving up meat and eating fish isn’t a big deal to you, then try some other form of fasting and sacrifice.

If giving up meat isn’t a big deal to your sister, then she should do it anyway (because she’s commanded to by those with the authority to do so) AND additionally do some other form of sacrifice.

We’re not commanded to eat fish, so she can give that up as well, for example.

 

[thistle]

I’ve been a little bothered by this for a while now and with Lent fast approaching I figured I’d ask others for their opinion on the matter. During Lent we are asked to abstain from meat on Ash Wednesday, the Fridays of Lent, and Good Friday. However, eating fish is permitted because (for some reason that is beyond my current understanding) it is not considered meat. This seems like spliting hairs to me. I personally think fish counts as meat and though I am not a vegetarian myself I do have many friends who are and they too would view eating fish as eating meat. I forget where I originally heard this but a comical vegetarian quote comes to mind, “I don’t eat anything that had a face.”

The second part of my question goes beyond whether or not you feel that fish is meat or not. I’ve noticed that most people (with the exception of those who dislike or cannot eat fish) get *really excited *for their fish fries during Lent. It’s a big treat for most people (myself included). Isn’t Lent supposed to be (in part) about sacrifice? Aren’t Fridays during Lent supposed to be spent contemplating Our Lord’s Passion and Crucifixion, which is part of the reason why we abstain from eating meat?

Now before anyone accuses me of being a spoil sport I will say that I do believe a lot of good comes from the tradition of eating fish on Fridays during Lent. The most immediate goods that result from this custom that I’ve seen are: 1) it gives people a reason to come together in a way relating to our shared faith, whether it’s families going out together for dinner or people meeting with their fellow parishioners at a church sponsored dinner. 2) it gives the various parishes and Catholic schools an opportunity to raise some badly needed funds by selling fish fries to local Catholics.

Fish is not meat.
This is the Church definition of meat (from Modern Catholic Dictionary):

MEAT. The flesh of animals and birds eaten by human beings, as understood in Church law. Its prohibition on days of abstinence and fast has a spiritual value, going back to the Old Testament and practiced since apostolic times. “The law of abstinence forbids the use of meat, but not of eggs, the products of milk or condiments made of animal fat” (Pope Paul VI, Paenitemini, Norm III, 1).

 

[tee_eff_em]

Cheating against whom or what!?

I will say that I do believe a lot of good comes from the tradition of eating fish on Fridays during Lent.

There is nothing that compels the consumption of fish.

tee

 

[jtodisco]

I knew this post would get at least a couple interesting responses. I am fully aware that no one is required to eat fish on Fridays. I recall saying at least once or twice in my OP that it’s a “tradition” (with a lower-case “t”). I also did point out that there are benefits to this tradition, which I think some responders must have skipped over because otherwise they would not have needed to tell me as much (especially in the case where the example I was given was the same as one I gave in my OP ). Also, while I do honestly appreciate people giving me the official defintion of what is meat and what isn’t simply saying “this is meat and this is not” doesn’t explain why the distinction is made. One poster made the comment about fish being cold blooded and that being the significant difference. While I’d be lying if I said that argument convinced me that fish isn’t meat at least it was an argument versus a definition.

Anyway, I hope people can recognize the playful tone in this post and to an extent the OP. I know that tone can be lost easily online and I don’t want people getting too upset with me for asking this question. I do know that I could always abstain from both what the Church considers meat and fish on Fridays if I feel it may in my particular case be breaking the spirit of Lent otherwise. I’m not sure what I’m going to do yet as I did point out there are benefits to this tradition (like supporting the local Catholic school in my area that is selling fish fry dinners during Lent).

I would ask though, since I took the time to read each of your responses that you please take the time to read the entire OP before responding because otherwise this thread (like many others) will just go off the rails. Thanks. And may you all have a very spiritually fruitful Lent.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Sorry. The phrase tradition-even–with-a-lower-case-t *of eating fish on Fridays *simply made it sound compulsory to my reading. Mea culpa.

I honestly do not know *why fish is considered acceptable, only that it is and has been for a long time. And even though I enjoy fish, I still believe it is a good and morally strengthening thing that I must subject my will and appetites to what is required of me by the Church.

(* One speculation I have heard is that fish would have been readily available to Noah and his family during the flood when other animals might not be slaughtered)

tee

 

[jtodisco]

Sorry. The phrase tradition-even–with-a-lower-case-t *of eating fish on Fridays *simply made it sound compulsory to my reading. Mea culpa.

I honestly do not know *why fish is considered acceptable, only that it is and has been for a long time. And even though I enjoy fish, I still believe it is a good and morally strengthening thing that I must subject my will and appetites to what is required of me by the Church.

(* One speculation I have heard is that fish would have been readily available to Noah and his family during the flood when other animals might not be slaughtered)

tee

Honestly, I could have worded the OP a little more clearly. In retrospect I could have used the word “custom” instead of tradition and avoided a lot of confusion I’m sure. There’s a similar thread on here posted by Utah Rose and they worded their OP much more clearly and the responses as a result have been much more productive.

I will say that since I do looooove fish fries so much that perhaps this is something I could give up for Lent? With fish fries being everywhere this time of year it would be quite a challenge. We’ll see…this idea may not sound so good to me come Ash Wednesday.

 

[PrayHarder]

If giving up meat isn’t a big deal to your sister, then she should do it anyway (because she’s commanded to by those with the authority to do so) AND additionally do some other form of sacrifice.

We’re not commanded to eat fish, so she can give that up as well, for example.

That was my point in my original post. I was just showing the illogical rationalizations some people come to regarding eating meat/fish on Fridays.

 

[BVM_1221]

I’ve been a little bothered by this for a while now and with Lent fast approaching I figured I’d ask others for their opinion on the matter. During Lent we are asked to abstain from meat on Ash Wednesday, the Fridays of Lent, and Good Friday. However, eating fish is permitted because (for some reason that is beyond my current understanding) it is not considered meat. This seems like spliting hairs to me. I personally think fish counts as meat and though I am not a vegetarian myself I do have many friends who are and they too would view eating fish as eating meat. I forget where I originally heard this but a comical vegetarian quote comes to mind, “I don’t eat anything that had a face.”

The second part of my question goes beyond whether or not you feel that fish is meat or not. I’ve noticed that most people (with the exception of those who dislike or cannot eat fish) get *really excited *for their fish fries during Lent. It’s a big treat for most people (myself included). Isn’t Lent supposed to be (in part) about sacrifice? Aren’t Fridays during Lent supposed to be spent contemplating Our Lord’s Passion and Crucifixion, which is part of the reason why we abstain from eating meat?

Now before anyone accuses me of being a spoil sport I will say that I do believe a lot of good comes from the tradition of eating fish on Fridays during Lent. The most immediate goods that result from this custom that I’ve seen are: 1) it gives people a reason to come together in a way relating to our shared faith, whether it’s families going out together for dinner or people meeting with their fellow parishioners at a church sponsored dinner. 2) it gives the various parishes and Catholic schools an opportunity to raise some badly needed funds by selling fish fries to local Catholics.

I was informed that, on days of abstinance, we do not eat warm-blooded flesh. I try not to complicate such a simple directive. So some people like fish?

I regard the of not spilling hot, warm blood on Friday as more important.

Note: My 3 cats do not abstain on Fridays. Then again, they are not Catholics

 

[Spirithound]

However, eating fish is permitted because it is not considered meat. This seems like spliting hairs to me.

The second part… I’ve noticed that most people get *really excited *for their fish fries during Lent. It’s a big treat for most people. Isn’t Lent supposed to be about sacrifice? Aren’t Fridays during Lent supposed to be spent contemplating Our Lord’s Passion and Crucifixion, which is part of the reason why we abstain from eating meat?

Also, while I do honestly appreciate people giving me the official definition of what is meat and what isn’t simply saying “this is meat and this is not” doesn’t explain why the distinction is made.

I have a couple ways to answer your questions. The first will not be very helpful, but I’ll give it anyways. The reason fish is not considered meat is because of a quirk of Latin. If carne did not include fish to a first-/second-century Roman, then it simply did not include fish to a first-/second-century Roman. We have no authority to go back and try to rewrite the lexicon to say that fish is carne.

But now I’ll put in my helpful 2 cents I think the reason that we can eat fish on a Friday is because the Apostles were fishers, and after meeting Jesus, fishers of men.

I’m not sure what to do about people who get excited over fish-Fridays, but I’d say just let it go…and maybe give a little catechesis

 

[Little_Mary]

I do not like fish very much at all, and I find it difficult on Fridays to abstain from meat, so it’s a good guideline for me as far as the sacrifice.

As some posters suggested, if one likes fish, choose another form of sacrifice on Fridays to go with abstaining from meet.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Fish on Fridays cheating? Don’t think so. Lobster and Shrimp? Possibly not in the spirit of it all.

 

[Jenwah]

This is something that has bothered me for quite a long time. Catholics, going in droves, to Seafood restaurants on Fridays of Lent. Really? This is a sacrifice? Ordering the Cedar Plank Salmon or the Chilean Sea Bass? For me, staying home and eating a simple bowl of lentils puts me in a better place of reflection in the season of Lent.

 

[LilyM]

This is something that has bothered me for quite a long time. Catholics, going in droves, to Seafood restaurants on Fridays of Lent. Really? This is a sacrifice? Ordering the Cedar Plank Salmon or the Chilean Sea Bass? For me, staying home and eating a simple bowl of lentils puts me in a better place of reflection in the season of Lent.

WHO exactly are these ‘droves’ of people? Do you stand outside these restaurants counting the people going in - and quizzing each one about their religion - or something?

Do you have any actual unbiased evidence- such as figures about the takings of these restaurants in Lent compared to the rest of the year - that the number of customers frequenting these restaurants goes up on Fridays in Lent?

AND that these same people aren’t, for example, people who always go to a restaurant on Fridays, and happen to choose seafood during Lent? Or who are doing so out of gluttony or bad motives rather than, for example, as a business requirement, or as a couples or family outing, or to celebrate a special occasion of some kind?

I mean taking extra time out to bond with your loved ones over a meal (even a nice one) is a perfectly Christian and Lenten thing to do. Jesus did so many times, and the Wedding at Cana and the Last Supper weren’t exactly no stinkin’ bowls of beans either.

Many of us would do well to spend a lot more time with our family and friends this Lent, and meals are an excellent opportunity to spend that time with them.

 

[Jenwah]

WHO exactly are these ‘droves’ of people? Do you stand outside these restaurants counting the people going in - and quizzing each one about their religion - or something?

Do you have any actual unbiased evidence- such as figures about the takings of these restaurants in Lent compared to the rest of the year - that the number of customers frequenting these restaurants goes up on Fridays in Lent?

AND that these same people aren’t, for example, people who always go to a restaurant on Fridays, and happen to choose seafood during Lent? Or who are doing so out of gluttony or bad motives rather than, for example, as a business requirement, or as a couples or family outing, or to celebrate a special occasion of some kind?

I mean taking extra time out to bond with your loved ones over a meal (even a nice one) is a perfectly Christian and Lenten thing to do. Jesus did so many times, and the Wedding at Cana and the Last Supper weren’t exactly no stinkin’ bowls of beans either.

Many of us would do well to spend a lot more time with our family and friends this Lent, and meals are an excellent opportunity to spend that time with them.

Do a little research on the web. You will see as I did, the statistics of places like Red Lobster during the Lenten season. (I doubt the main cause is the rise in business dinners or anniversaries). This is a topic that Father also talked about during one of his sermons a couple years ago, which made me take a closer look at my own Lenten practices. As a result, our church started serving a simple soup meal after the Stations of the Cross on Fridays. Families, friends can all come together without the extravagance of going out to dinner. You can do all those wonderful family bonding things at home too.

The meaning and purpose of Lent is lost when we take a time of fasting and reflection and turn it into an event to splurge at a favorite restaurant.

 

[MercyMia]

Personally, I love going to McDonald’s on Fridays during lent and noticing most people infront of me ordering fish fillet sandwiches (usually 2 for $3 during lent). I love that there are enough Catholics who practice that McDonald’s and other restaurants actually run promotions during lent to accomidate them. Seriously, that gets me excited. It reminds me of the importance of the Church, the vast number of us and the impact we have on cultures and societies - and frankly watching someone order fish on Friday reminds me of that. I dunno, when I see those other fish-eating people it really reminds me of the beautiful culture of the Church. Heck, even the corporate cafeteria in my office park has fish sticks on the menu for Friday this week. Love that. Just love it.

As others have said, if fish is a treat for you, there is no problem with taking your fast to a different level with only veggies or rice. Or by splitting your fish fillet with another person and only eat half so as not to feel like you are indulging. We shouldn’t judge other people’s fasts and sacrifices. Wasn’t the inital Lenten reading yesterday about not boasting our own sacrifice?