Is fornication+birth control even worse than fornication without?

[urban-hermit]

I was in this thread about Sean Hannity’s televised conflict with Father Thomas Euteneur and this question came up in my mind.

If somebody tells you they want to have sex outside of marriage, wouldn’t it be even worse if they used birth control as well? It’s an awkward idea to present … but i think it’s true that it would be even worse.

 

[blessedtoo]

I was in this thread about Sean Hannity’s televised conflict with Father Thomas Euteneur and this question came up in my mind.

If somebody tells you they want to have sex outside of marriage, wouldn’t it be even worse if they used birth control as well? It’s an awkward idea to present … but i think it’s true that it would be even worse.

I have faced this exact situation with my son and his very, very long-time girlfriend (soon to be wife). She is non-Catholic and my son was baptised Greek Orthodox, but converted (completely on his own many years ago, no help from me) to Catholicism for cultural reasons. They have been together for 10 years, longer than I have been returned to the Church.

My future daughter-in-law came to me last year interested in NFP - not for religious reason, but for holistic concerns. I accompanied her to the belly of the beast (PP) to have her IUD removed, gave her the massive amounts of information about NFP, helped her with her charts, and prayed, prayed, prayed. I know they practiced NFP for some time, but I don’t know what they are doing now.

What I learned about myself through this whole experience, is that while I completely understand and agree with Church teaching against ABC, when two people are unmarried, it is much more difficult to make the case for NFP. I found that I was really frightened for them, in that if they did become pregnant, they would not “be ready” (as if anyone ever is!). Over the years, these two have gone from pro-aborts, to pro-life, so I don’t worry any longer that an abortion would occur. I do however worry that if they failed at NFP, they would then discount it completely. Because they are not open to the spiritual component of this practice, the only apology I can give for NFP is that it is better for the woman and better for the couple.

It’s a very difficult position to be in and the best way for me to manage it is through prayer and have answers ready for them when they question.

 

[dulcissima]

Yes, I do think it would be even worse if they used birth control, because it might give them a false sense of security that what they were doing wasn’t that bad and didn’t have consequences. I think if this hypothetical couple didn’t use artificial birth control, they would realize the seriousness of what it was that they were doing and might spend some time thinking about the long term consequnces to their own lives, to the lives that might come about as a result of their fornication, and to their future as a couple. I think there would be more of a tendency to ignore those issus if they were to also be using artificial birth control.

Then of course there is the issue of sin. Why would anyone want to distance themselves further and further from God in layer after layer of sin?

 

[jburgherr]

My personal opinion is that each sins stands on its own. Fornication is sin in and of itself. Contraception is a sin in and of itself.

Both are of grave matter. One who does both commits two sins.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

For those of you who are addicted to navel gazing, here is an analytical judgement from a heretic.
Sexual conjugation, where some artificial means is present to prevent conception is equivalent to mutual masturbation.
This is less sinful than personal masturbation, because it is not purely selfish.

 

[dulcissima]

For those of you who are addicted to navel gazing, here is an analytical judgement from a heretic.
Sexual conjugation, where some artificial means is present to prevent conception is equivalent to mutual masturbation.
This is less sinful than personal masturbation, because it is not purely selfish.

Mutual masturbation is more sinful, since you are not only jeopardizing your own soul, but also the soul of another. What could be more selfish than that?

 

[StCsDavid]

I was in this thread about Sean Hannity’s televised conflict with Father Thomas Euteneur and this question came up in my mind.

If somebody tells you they want to have sex outside of marriage, wouldn’t it be even worse if they used birth control as well? It’s an awkward idea to present … but i think it’s true that it would be even worse.

IMHO it’s two mortal sins for the price of one, and as odd as it may sound, I find the use of contraception more offensive than the fornication. Fornication is being a fallen human…contraception is playing God.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Sins are sins, no matter how many you happen to be doing at once.

If I masturbate while stealing something, taking the Lord’s name in vain, and worshipping an idol, every single one of those is still a sin (though it is impressive multitasking ) and I would have to confess each one.

Having premarital sex is a sin and using contraception is a sin and even if you do them together, you have to confess them both.

In debates with pro-choice people, they’ve argued that if I had a kid and my kid made a mistake and had sex, wouldn’t I want them to use a condom? The answer is NO, that’s adding one sin on top of another! They say don’t you care about your child? Wouldn’t you want to protect them from the harmful consequences? Of course I love my hypothetical child! How dare they insinuate that I don’t love my hypothetical child! I would hypothetically die for my hypothetical child! But actions have consequences. If my child murdered someone, I wouldn’t cover up the murder to protect my poor baby! In the same way, if my child has sex, he/she has to deal with the consequences. I will help my child as much as I can should the worst happen (HIV/AIDS), or an untimely blessing happen (pregnancy), but I’m not going to help cushion their fall so that they just get up and throw themselves down again. My hypothetical child has to learn the same as anyone else’s hypothetical or real child!

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Mutual masturbation is more sinful, since you are not only jeopardizing your own soul, but also the soul of another. What could be more selfish than that?

Though I support Tatian, I do not support his purported heresy of ‘ecratitism’, neither do I support the excesses of Paulinism, which have a tendency in that direction.
If G_D did not intend us to take pleasure in sex, G_D would not have coupled the powerful endorphines to the climax thereoff.
Are you going to tell us that ‘fore-play’ is sinful?
At what point does a kiss and a cuddle become ‘fore-play’?
At what point does ‘fore-play’ become mutual masturbation?
Is not ‘withdrawal’ the worst kind of selfishness, for it is personal mastubation, denying the partner of fulfilment?
There is a saying, that by giving pleasure, you can attain joy.
This is, I believe a Hindu proverb, but I believe it is generally true.
BTW, in Hiduism, joy is equated with victory.

 

[leonie]

I think using NFP is better even for fornicating couple because it leads the couple towards virtue.

By abstaining, they learn self control. By constant discussion of the process, they learn communication.

Because it is in harmony with God’s plan, they are pulled closer to His holy image.

I remember hearing Eric Scheidler (a NFP advocate and Joe Scheidler’s son) say that within his marriage, they started NFP for the health benefits. He was estranged from the Church. And the virtues and beauties of NFP actually led him back to the Church.

I think the concern for a fornicating couple is that they don’t have the graces that a married couple has, so they will have a greater struggle with it. So, there is a greater chance of user error.

 

[urban-hermit]

MariaGorettiGrl - post # 8 was a lot of fun to read - thanks!

leonie - what you say makes sense to me, that modifying our actions to be more in harmony with God’s will, even if we didn’t realize what we were doing, we might very well reap various benefits…

blessedtoo - wow. Congratulations that your son is planning to get married! I’m sure your prayers have helped there. I will pray for him too, and for you. I’m sure you’re bringing them both a lot of graces.

So many good posts! Almost everything in this thread makes a lot of sense!

 

[dulcissima]

If G_D did not intend us to take pleasure in sex, G_D would not have coupled the powerful endorphines to the climax thereoff.

No one is claiming that God does not intend for there to be pleasure in sex, but that pleasure is reserved for marriage and is not to be stripped from its procreative potential. Anything else is tainted with lust rather than the love that God intended.

Are you going to tell us that ‘fore-play’ is sinful?

No.

At what point does a kiss and a cuddle become ‘fore-play’?
At what point does ‘fore-play’ become mutual masturbation?

At the point where it becomes genital stimulation to the point of climax without being open to the possibility of being a life giving act.

Is not ‘withdrawal’ the worst kind of selfishness, for it is personal mastubation, denying the partner of fulfilment?

I don’t think you will find any arguments with this on this forum.

There is a saying, that by giving pleasure, you can attain joy.
This is, I believe a Hindu proverb, but I believe it is generally true.
BTW, in Hinduism, joy is equated with victory.

This is a nice proverb. I would just add that there can be no fulfilling pleasure and no lasting joy when one chooses to offend God.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

No one is claiming that God does not intend for there to be pleasure in sex, but that pleasure is reserved for marriage and is not to be stripped from its procreative potential. Anything else is tainted with lust rather than the love that God intended.

No.
At the point where it becomes genital stimulation to the point of climax without being open to the possibility of being a life giving act.

I don’t think you will find any arguments with this on this forum.
This is a nice proverb. I would just add that there can be no fulfilling pleasure and no lasting joy when one chooses to offend God.

Thankyou for your excellent answers.

 

[fix]

I was in this thread about Sean Hannity’s televised conflict with Father Thomas Euteneur and this question came up in my mind.

If somebody tells you they want to have sex outside of marriage, wouldn’t it be even worse if they used birth control as well? It’s an awkward idea to present … but i think it’s true that it would be even worse.

Sure it’s worse. For a few reasons including it furthers a bad act so one is more likely to continue acting badly. One may develop a contraceptive mentality and if they get married carry that into their marriage.

 

[Jennifer123]

I’m pretty sure I’m saying what has already been said, so please indulge me…

But IMHO sex outside of marriage is just as bad as also using contraception because they both enable us to objectify each other for personal use and damage our inherent dignity. The question’s answer maybe needs to begin with an understanding of human dignity, which Sean Hannity sadly doesn’t seem to grasp.

I know he was deeply affected by the murder of Terri Schiavo, and he should be told of the relationship between the contraceptive mentality and euthanasia, a logical extension of this ideology.

 

[blessedtoo]

I know he was deeply affected by the murder of Terri Schiavo, and he should be told of the relationship between the contraceptive mentality and euthanasia, a logical extension of this ideology.

That’s such a great point, Jennifer. Someone should send Sean a copy of Janet Smith’s “Contraception: Why Not?”

 

[BryanW]

One evil begets another I suppose.

 

[urban-hermit]

I really need to see “Contraception: Why Not?” – I’ve heard so many raves about it and I think I really need it because I am still in the process of educating myself on how to defend the teaching on artificial birth control.

And that says something, doesn’t it? That we have to do our own research to really understand the Church’s teaching well enough to defend it to others. Maybe that is how it should be, that we should need to do some work to make our faith our own…

At any rate, the other point that I like to emphasize is the one StCsDavid made in post # 7: “Fornication is being a fallen human…contraception is playing God.”

I am also reminded of something beloved JP2 said, along the lines that philosophy and metaphysics really need to be rediscovered, so that we are enabled to properly think through these issues. These TV “talking heads” are passionate debaters who often mean well I think, but they lack a solid educational foundation. So I can’t be too hard on Sean Hannity - after all, there are hordes of Catholics who are just as dumbfounded as he is when it comes to making sense of the Church’s teaching on ABC. I guess in his brashness - which can be a good thing if you keep it in perspective - he has forgotten that we have to submit to Church teaching in the area of morality, even as we struggle to understand it.

Here’s praying that Sean will set a good example and have the humility to read up or listen to some tapes or log into ewtn.com … or maybe just really PRAY to educate himself a bit before continuing in his obstinacy.

 

[blessedtoo]

I really need to see “Contraception: Why Not?” – I’ve heard so many raves about it and I think I really need it because I am still in the process of educating myself on how to defend the teaching on artificial birth control.

Here you go Urban! Reading this changed everything for me!
catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html

 

[Matt_Collins]

In debates with pro-choice people, they’ve argued that if I had a kid and my kid made a mistake and had sex, wouldn’t I want them to use a condom? The answer is NO, that’s adding one sin on top of another! . . .

I agree! I’ve had this same discussion.

The way I put it is this: Telling your kid “Don’t have sex before marriage, but if you do, make sure you wear a condom so you don’t get caught” is like telling them “Don’t rob a store, but if you do, make sure you wear a ski mask so you don’t get caught.”

Frankly, if my son robs a store, I hope he does get caught!! It sure is better than getting away with it over and over again and eventually progressing to actually shooting someone to avoid getting caught.

They had no answer to that.