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Dolores49
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Seagirt
Guest
I WOULD MOSTLY CONCUR. I LIKED THE EARLY TAPES OF RICHARD ROHR, THE MYSTERY OF JOB , GREAT THEMES OF SCRIPTURE; AND SOME OTHERS. BUT SINCE 2003 OR SO-- HE IS INTO ENNAGRAM AND NEW AGE/HIPPY STUFF FROM THE 60’S. HIS SOCIAL GOSPEL ACTIVIST MESSAGE IS GOOD, AS HE SEES THE CAPITALIST/ CONSUMER CULTURE AS ENRICHING ONLY THE RICH. " WE SEND ALL THE WRONG MESSAGES AND VALUES TO OUR YOUNG FOLKS". ALSO , HE SAID THE KILLINGS IN OUR SCHOOLS WONT STOP AS THE PREVAILING AMERICAN CULTURE IS TOXIC AND THE KIDS ARE GETTING ALL THE WRONG MESSAGES. I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT ASSESMENT.Dear Maria, :yup: You can’t go wrong with the materials Brad’s group is using. All the big, orthodox Catholic Scripture Study groups in the Twin Cities use materials that come out of Steubenville and/or its graduates. My own choice would be to do Jeff Cavins’ Bible Timeline first and then follow with individual books in years to come. (I’m doing Exodus this year, and these are the very best materials I’ve ever used.)
I have read and met Father Rohr, and he wasn’t quite as bad as I had anticipated. A sort of interesting speaker, even amusing, and some of his points seem valid to me. Fortunately the old, hippy days of Catholicism are passe and don’t fly well now, and unfortunately for Father Rohr, the crowd that surrounds him brings too much of that ambiance to his projects.
Anyway, why bother, when you can get really good materials through Catholic Scripture Study, etc. ?
Our Scripture studies are really terrific. I hope yours will be, too!
God bless,
Anna
ROHR IS A BRIGHT FELLOW; BUT LEANS TOO MUCH TOWARD THE NEW AGE FEMINIST/ QUASI-CATHOLIC LEFT FOR MY APPROVAL NOWADAYS.
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
Richard Rohr is heavily promoted by Saint Anthony Messenger Press, which is why I advise people to stay away from them and their website americancatholic.org
I remember reading an article about Richard Rohr a couple of years ago and it mentioned that at his gatherings for men, he likes to have all the guys get half-naked and touch each others unclothed bodies.
I think the guy is just plain kinky.
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
I remember reading an article about Richard Rohr a couple of years ago and it mentioned that at his gatherings for men, he likes to have all the guys get half-naked and touch each others unclothed bodies.
I think the guy is just plain kinky.
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
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Julianna
Guest
It’s been years…but we did the enneagram with the DRE and all the catechists. I scored a strong 2 and 9. Can’t remember what that means though. I just remembered the numbers. I’m not sure that it is the “most” accurate…but it is interesting.
On Myers-Briggs I am a ENFJ.
Chinese astrology, I am the dog.
Astrology, I am a true Pisces.
See how much you know about me already…
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Seagirt
Guest
GOOD post Anna! I always enjoyed Fr. Rohr’s early books and tapes, like Job and the Mystery of Suffering, and Great Themes of Scripture. Unfortunately his later stuff is mired in " New Age" thinking and he mentions Matthew Fox and others who are very suspect. Like Thomas Merton-- I think he becane too enamored of Eastern Spirituality, like Zen Buddhism. shades of the 60’s !Dear Maria, :yup: You can’t go wrong with the materials Brad’s group is using. All the big, orthodox Catholic Scripture Study groups in the Twin Cities use materials that come out of Steubenville and/or its graduates. My own choice would be to do Jeff Cavins’ Bible Timeline first and then follow with individual books in years to come. (I’m doing Exodus this year, and these are the very best materials I’ve ever used.)
I have read and met Father Rohr, and he wasn’t quite as bad as I had anticipated. A sort of interesting speaker, even amusing, and some of his points seem valid to me. Fortunately the old, hippy days of Catholicism are passe and don’t fly well now, and unfortunately for Father Rohr, the crowd that surrounds him brings too much of that ambiance to his projects.
Anyway, why bother, when you can get really good materials through Catholic Scripture Study, etc. ?
Our Scripture studies are really terrific. I hope yours will be, too!
God bless,
Anna
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
Also, Father Rohr has been known to support homosexuality, and I don’t mean that he has compassion on people with same-sex attraction. We ALL have compassion on people who struggle with this. Father Rohr has served in pro-gay (actively gay) organizations.
Google **Father Richard Rohr Homosexuality Gay **
for more information, there should be plenty.
God bless you all,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
Google **Father Richard Rohr Homosexuality Gay **
for more information, there should be plenty.
God bless you all,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
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Seagirt
Guest
Here’s the review from Catholic Culture// by Father Sibley.
" Rohr’s unfortunate flirtation with paganism or Arianism leaves his wounded men naked, on all fours, crawling in the dark on the floor of the New Mexico desert, looking blindly for meaning in their lives, instead of humbly approaching Christ, their Lord and Savior.
Conclusion
At the conference I explained to another attendee that I did not think Rohr should call his “male spirituality” Catholic. This individual responded that I was being too rigid in my interpretation of Catholicism, that Rohr just has a very “broad” sense of what it means to be Catholic. To which I posed this situation in reply: Imagine that you, a Cajun, traveled to some state in the Midwest and went to a restaurant advertising that it sold “Cajun food” and you ordered a bowl of gumbo. But what was brought out to you was a bowl of watery soup with a few pieces of steak floating in it. Would you call that authentic “Cajun food”? Of course not. No Cajun in his right mind would. Then why would you be more dogmatic in your approach to food than in your approach to your faith?
In sum, Rohr’s presentation of his so-called “male spirituality” should certainly not be called Catholic. Though he claimed at his conference to sit in the “larger Christian and Catholic tradition,” he fails to demonstrate how referring to God as Mother, encouraging homosexual advocacy, denying the spiritual reality of Original Sin, denying the necessity of the Cross for redemption, and promoting pagan rituals resides within the Catholic or even Christian tradition."
The Rev. Bryce Sibley, STL, who holds a Licentiate degree from the John Paul II Institute for Marriage and the Family in Rome, is Pastor of St. Joseph Catholic Church in Parks, Louisiana, in the Diocese of Lafayette.
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spangler1982
Guest
Here’s a quote by him I found very challenging (emphasis in bold mine):
youtube.com/watch?v=FeF7V6PYFqE (at 1:30)
“If I had to name the really darkest side of where Western Christianity is at and why it can’t get ‘it’; why it can’t find its power and its potential; I would say that more than anything else it’s because of the lie of individualism. That’s precisely what religion tells you you’re not. . . .[quotes a section from Thomas Merton’s *Disputed Questions]
. . . The big cover for it-and we’ve fed into it-is this business about getting my private soul saved. Me going to heaven. Did it ever strike you that that’s about the best disguised narcissism you can think of? And we’ve let centuries of Catholics and Protestants get away with it. Thinking that that’s even first level enlightenment! Thinking that’s even first level spirituality or transformation. The ego, the private self can be totally in charge, totally in control, and worried about its self-securing, self-validating self-legitimating level.
That’s the lie at the core of western individualistic Christianity. And why I want to say that the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the experience of participatory union with God and with one another is the trump card, the political trump card of western Christianity, which it has yet to throw on the table. Because we’re trying to solve this whole thing out of an individualistic ethos, of getting individual people saved, individual people thinking good about themselves, and we don’t realize that the very person that we’re dealing with there is outside of what I would call the Trinitarian flow, where you inherently know that it’s not about me, that my life is not about me. That I’m being used. I am participating in something bigger than my self.”
youtube.com/watch?v=FeF7V6PYFqE (at 1:30)
“If I had to name the really darkest side of where Western Christianity is at and why it can’t get ‘it’; why it can’t find its power and its potential; I would say that more than anything else it’s because of the lie of individualism. That’s precisely what religion tells you you’re not. . . .[quotes a section from Thomas Merton’s *Disputed Questions]
. . . The big cover for it-and we’ve fed into it-is this business about getting my private soul saved. Me going to heaven. Did it ever strike you that that’s about the best disguised narcissism you can think of? And we’ve let centuries of Catholics and Protestants get away with it. Thinking that that’s even first level enlightenment! Thinking that’s even first level spirituality or transformation. The ego, the private self can be totally in charge, totally in control, and worried about its self-securing, self-validating self-legitimating level.
That’s the lie at the core of western individualistic Christianity. And why I want to say that the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the experience of participatory union with God and with one another is the trump card, the political trump card of western Christianity, which it has yet to throw on the table. Because we’re trying to solve this whole thing out of an individualistic ethos, of getting individual people saved, individual people thinking good about themselves, and we don’t realize that the very person that we’re dealing with there is outside of what I would call the Trinitarian flow, where you inherently know that it’s not about me, that my life is not about me. That I’m being used. I am participating in something bigger than my self.”
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Jim
Guest
Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t some of the greatest saints in history very concerned with the salvation of their own souls? And didn’t that idea motivate them go on to live very selfless lives that have had wonderful consequences on the Christian world that are still experienced today? I don’t think I agree with Fr. Rohr on this one.
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
I have some of Father Rohr’s writing.
He strikes me as a liberal who thinks that
he is smarter than the Magisterium of the Church.
He strikes me as a liberal who thinks that
he is smarter than the Magisterium of the Church.
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mc366
Guest
Since some of you seem to know about Fr. Rohr’s dissenting views, would you know anything about John (Jack) Shea? In his sermon on Sunday, our pastor said that John Shea is his favorite theologian and story teller. He then quoted one of his stories and talked about Shea’s ideas on God.
Since the theological views of our pastor are at best suspect by some of us in the pews, a couple of people asked me if I had heard of John Shea (not to be confused with Mark Shea-a solid Catholic author).
Do any of you know anything about him?
Thanks!
Since the theological views of our pastor are at best suspect by some of us in the pews, a couple of people asked me if I had heard of John Shea (not to be confused with Mark Shea-a solid Catholic author).
Do any of you know anything about him?
Thanks!
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Seagirt
Guest
Well, i think that valid points are being made by both you (Jim ) and Fr. Rohr. Western Individualism is all about me, me ,me. How can i get saved, spiritual, climb the ladder to God, etc. Maybe we have gone over to this side more than is needed. Would " the Self " that modern psychology talks about make any sense to St. Paul. ? Possibly not. Rohr always makes some valid points… tho’ most of us on this board would not agree with him on a large portion of his current writings. When you say… " salvation of their own souls "… maybe when you lose yourself for somebody else, thats when you are really living. The gospel really is scandalous.!
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DJim
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John Shea, If I’m not mistaken, is a former priest of the Archdiocese of Chicago, and a longtime Catholic author.
I’m inclined to say that, having heard him speak, he’s a good speaker and storyteller. I am not inclined to think that his “theology” is a 100 percent match with the Magisterium.
Others may have more info…
DJim
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stbruno
Guest
I heard him speak at a conference…and he put me to sleep…I tried to stay awake but he was so boring in person.
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bhjones84
Guest
Quote from AServantofGod:
“I don’t know about anybody else out there, but the enneagram provides the most accurate view of personality types that I’ve ever seen including the Myers-Briggs and the method which uses Sanguine, Choleric, Meloncholy & Phlegmatic.”
Here is a quote from the Vatican document, "Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life: A Christian Reflection on the ‘New Age’:
“We cannot delude ourselves that this (New Age Spirituality) will lead toward a renewal of religion. It is only a new way of practising gnosticism – that attitude of the spirit that, in the name of a profound knowledge of God, results in distorting His Word and replacing it with purely human words. Gnosticism never completely abandoned the realm of Christianity. Instead, it has always existed side by side with Christianity, sometimes taking the shape of a philosophical movement, but more often assuming the characteristics of a religion or a para-religion in distinct, if not declared, conflict with all that is essentially Christian”.(6) An example of this can be seen in the enneagram, the nine-type tool for character analysis, which when used as a means of spiritual growth introduces an ambiguity in the doctrine and the life of the Christian faith.” (vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html)
“I don’t know about anybody else out there, but the enneagram provides the most accurate view of personality types that I’ve ever seen including the Myers-Briggs and the method which uses Sanguine, Choleric, Meloncholy & Phlegmatic.”
Here is a quote from the Vatican document, "Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life: A Christian Reflection on the ‘New Age’:
“We cannot delude ourselves that this (New Age Spirituality) will lead toward a renewal of religion. It is only a new way of practising gnosticism – that attitude of the spirit that, in the name of a profound knowledge of God, results in distorting His Word and replacing it with purely human words. Gnosticism never completely abandoned the realm of Christianity. Instead, it has always existed side by side with Christianity, sometimes taking the shape of a philosophical movement, but more often assuming the characteristics of a religion or a para-religion in distinct, if not declared, conflict with all that is essentially Christian”.(6) An example of this can be seen in the enneagram, the nine-type tool for character analysis, which when used as a means of spiritual growth introduces an ambiguity in the doctrine and the life of the Christian faith.” (vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html)
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
] . . . The big cover for it-and we’ve fed into it-is this business about getting my private soul saved. Me going to heaven. Did it ever strike you that that’s about the best disguised narcissism you can think of? And we’ve let centuries of Catholics and Protestants get away with it. Thinking that that’s even first level enlightenment! Thinking that’s even first level spirituality or transformation. The ego, the private self can be totally in charge, totally in control, and worried about its self-securing, self-validating self-legitimating level.
That’s the lie at the core of western individualistic Christianity. And why I want to say that the doctrine of the Body of Christ, the experience of participatory union with God and with one another is the trump card, the political trump card of western Christianity, which it has yet to throw on the table. Because we’re trying to solve this whole thing out of an individualistic ethos, of getting individual people saved, individual people thinking good about themselves, and we don’t realize that the very person that we’re dealing with there is outside of what I would call the Trinitarian flow, where you inherently know that it’s not about me, that my life is not about me. That I’m being used. I am participating in something bigger than my self.”## Rather well said
If Christ had meant us to be saved purely as individuals - what is the use of the Church ? It’s an organic society of members - not a pile of disconnected limbs. He’s quite right to find fault with individualism - in no way is that a denial of the importance of the individual. It’s a warning against an unhealthy lack of balance that privileges the individual by ignoring others & their salvation. And that is is what priests are meant to do - correct unhealthy over-emphases that lead to forgetting other aspects of a fact that are no less important than the one that is receiving too much attention.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
A friend of mine recommended him to me last year, so I downloaded several of his sermons. They were all recent, from 2007…in I think every one, he went on a soapbox against the war in Iraq. Whether or not he was right, I found him a little obsessed with the matter. He kept insisting that dissenters against the war have a right to speak out. I didn’t know what he was talking about. 
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bhjones84
Guest
Rohr’s comments about individualism “as the darkest problem of Western Christianity” is correct. Pope Benedict XVI noted in his Regensburg Address that the problem facing Christianity, most especially Catholicism, is the dehellenization of doctrine. This dehellenization has crept into Catholic theology in recent years, but, as the Pope noted, it all stemmed from this individualistic approach that was the result of the Reformation. The individual salvation becomes the most important thing because we have done away with the speculative intellect, and said that only the practical intellect matters. So matters of truth or religion become solely conditioned by the individual person. This can lead to such modern sayings as “What Would Jesus Do” (WWJD) and we never ask “well why did Jesus do these things.” This is how Immanuel Kant approached theology and declared that Jesus was really just a great moral prophet and nothing more. For Kant, the message of the Gospel was reduced strictly to a life of ethics, social justice, etc. When we focus on those aspects of the Gospel as the most important, we miss the very person with whom we are called into a relationship with because we miss who He really is (The Logos; The Word made flesh; the Second Person of the Holy Trinity; God Himself). While I think Rohr seems to be on the right page in this matter, I do not think he sufficiently breaks down this current of thought the way Pope Benedict does. Rohr does not mention the communal aspect of the Church’s saving mission (as the Pope quite frequently wrote about as Cardinal). Bishop Fulton Sheen said that “if you want to save your own soul, save someone elses.” Rohr does have a few good points on some issues, but it is very evident that he has dissented from the Church in most areas.
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tskrobacz
Guest
The question posed here seeks a black or white, yes or not answer…the very dualistic thinking that Fr. Rohr teaches is at the root of a righteousness that is very low level Christianity and the cause of much suffering. If we are to aspire to higher level of consciousness then we must all be open to seeing the God given nature of all of creation and accept that excepting God himself, all of creation has what we perceive to be both light and darkness.
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Seagirt
Guest
think Rohr seems to be on the right page in this matter, I do not think he sufficiently breaks down this current of thought the way Pope Benedict does. Rohr does not mention the communal aspect of the Church’s saving mission (as the Pope quite frequently wrote about as Cardinal). Bishop Fulton Sheen said that “if you want to save your own soul, save someone elses.” Rohr does have a few good points on some issues, but it is very evident that he has dissented from the Church in most areas
– Yes, I run hot and cold with Fr. Richard Rohr. I liked his earlier tapes from the 90’s. Also agree with his " Second Half of Life " theory. Some of his current writing seem too new agey and/or Protestant in outlook sometimes, and I disagree with him that the Lot story in the Old Testament is about Hospitality---- I am sure its about Sin and Sodomy. I researched it extensively.
– Yes, I run hot and cold with Fr. Richard Rohr. I liked his earlier tapes from the 90’s. Also agree with his " Second Half of Life " theory. Some of his current writing seem too new agey and/or Protestant in outlook sometimes, and I disagree with him that the Lot story in the Old Testament is about Hospitality---- I am sure its about Sin and Sodomy. I researched it extensively.
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