Is free trade or fair trade more in accordance with Catholic teaching?

[Holly3278]

Hello everyone. I have been thinking about this for the past couple of days and I just got around to asking about it on here. Would free trade or fair trade policies be more in accordance with Catholic teaching? Please explain your reasoning. Thank you!

 

[acarlson]

I’ll have to be quite brief, as it’s quite late here and I’m running on E intellectually

For fair trade, it ensures that those who produce/create a good receive a fair living wage for doing so. To me, that seems quite obviously in line with Catholic moral teaching. We all deserve to be paid a wage sufficient for supporting ourselves and our families.

For free trade, it influences companies and individuals to produce the best product they can while punishing (financially, by being pushed out of the market) those who cut corners and endanger the public with a shoddy/dangerous product. You know, the whole self-regulation idea.

I must admit, it took QUITE a bit to come up with a moral justification for free trade. But just because the moral qualities of fair trade are more obvious and poignant does not necessarily mean that free trade is inherently immoral, either. We know humans tend to err towards sin, after all.

 

[nmgauss]

I’ll have to be quite brief, as it’s quite late here and I’m running on E intellectually

For fair trade, it ensures that those who produce/create a good receive a fair living wage for doing so. To me, that seems quite obviously in line with Catholic moral teaching. We all deserve to be paid a wage sufficient for supporting ourselves and our families.

For free trade, it influences companies and individuals to produce the best product they can while punishing (financially, by being pushed out of the market) those who cut corners and endanger the public with a shoddy/dangerous product. You know, the whole self-regulation idea.

I must admit, it took QUITE a bit to come up with a moral justification for free trade. But just because the moral qualities of fair trade are more obvious and poignant does not necessarily mean that free trade is inherently immoral, either. We know humans tend to err towards sin, after all.

To trade implies an agreement on both sides of the transaction. In other words, if both parties agree to the trade, it is fair. Free trade implies that there are no restrictions on who can trade with whom. If someone can trade with whomever he/she wants, that is free trade. If both parties agree to the trade, then it is fair.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

Both and neither. The key is in the motivation and in the details. Catholicism says nothing about what economic system is best.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Both and neither. The key is in the motivation and in the details. Catholicism says nothing about what economic system is best.

Yes this. I believe we are called to conduct ourselves in a fair manor. We could do this in any system available. In a Free Trade system we can spend our money on products which meet our standard of fairness. Here is where individual conscience comes into play. There is nothing intrinsically fair about free trade. It’s what we do with it that tells who we are as Catholics.

ATB

 

[Christy_Beth]

Just a note on “fair trade/free trade.” My daughter works for Walmarts. One day I said something about her buying her groceries there. She said “Not on what they pay me!” It’s unfair to the employees of a company if they don’t get paid enough to buy something as necessary as groceries there.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

To trade implies an agreement on both sides of the transaction. In other words, if both parties agree to the trade, it is fair. Free trade implies that there are no restrictions on who can trade with whom. If someone can trade with whomever he/she wants, that is free trade. If both parties agree to the trade, then it is fair.

The term “fair trade” as it is being used in this discussion is more than the simple conjunction of “fair” and “trade”. It is a single term that refers to the principle that asks that we, on one side of a potential trade, consider the business practices of the other party in making our decision. For example, you would not want to buy from a thief, even if he offered the better deal. Similarly, you would not want to buy from a company that relied on slave labor. As Catholics we are called upon to promote justice when possible. Taking into account the practices of those companies we do business with is one way in which we can promote justice.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Hello everyone. I have been thinking about this for the past couple of days and I just got around to asking about it on here. Would free trade or fair trade policies be more in accordance with Catholic teaching? Please explain your reasoning. Thank you!

I don’t think the two terms are in opposition to each other. Free trade refers to the reduction or elimination of artificial barriers to international commerce based only on the country where a product comes from. Fair trade refers to choices made, usually by the individual consumer, based on the business practices of the specific company that provides the goods. You can have both fair trade and free trade. So it is unnecessary to speculate on which is more in line with Catholic teaching.

 

[nmgauss]

Just a note on “fair trade/free trade.” My daughter works for Walmarts. One day I said something about her buying her groceries there. She said “Not on what they pay me!” It’s unfair to the employees of a company if they don’t get paid enough to buy something as necessary as groceries there.

She agreed to work there knowing what the pay would be. That is free trade.

I find Wal-mart’s prices quite low. If she does not shop there, where else would she shop? Maybe she can get a better deal at Food-for-Less.

 

[Christy_Beth]

What do you tell someone with a college degree in management, who has retail experience, but who can’t get a better job than that? In December she’ll graduate from a seminary with a degree in Children’s ministry, and no gaurantee that she’ll be able to use that. Where they (she and her husband) will be living, the closest Walmart’s is an hour away. Oh, and her work record is mostly with Walmarts. She worked for Subway for awhile and found that even worse than Walmarts. Such is the climate of our day. Half of all college graduates are either underemployed or unemployed. And we want to call this free trade?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Fair Trade…Free Trade–meaningless terms, unless we understand what “TRADE” or more specific a “TRADER” is.

A TRADER is a man who earns what he gets and does not give or take the undeserved. He does not treat men as masters or slaves, but as independent equals. He deals with men by means of a free, voluntary, unforced, un-coerced exchange—an exchange which benefits both parties by their own independent judgment. A trader does not expect to be paid for his defaults, only for his achievements. He does not apply the burden of his failures to others and he does not mortgage his life into bondage to the failures of others.

Apply that to the title of this thread and see where the discussion goes.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Fair Trade…Free Trade–meaningless terms, unless we understand what “TRADE” or more specific a “TRADER” is.

A TRADER is a man who earns what he gets and does not give or take the undeserved. He does not treat men as masters or slaves, but as independent equals. He deals with men by means of a free, voluntary, unforced, un-coerced exchange—an exchange which benefits both parties by their own independent judgment. A trader does not expect to be paid for his defaults, only for his achievements. He does not apply the burden of his failures to others and he does not mortgage his life into bondage to the failures of others.

Apply that to the title of this thread and see where the discussion goes.

A word means what the people using it want it to mean. I find no evidence that your very qualified and restrictive definition of “trader” is any more valid than the more common usage which is anyone who engages in trade in whatever economic system he finds himself.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

A word means what the people using it want it to mean. I find no evidence that your very qualified and restrictive definition of “trader” is any more valid than the more common usage which is anyone who engages in trade in whatever economic system he finds himself.

Well, Leaf, if you want to keep it simple, your definition is…“OK”

I like to go a little deeper and bring out what constitutes an “honest” TRADER. Your definition is a little vague in that department.

 

[nmgauss]

What do you tell someone with a college degree in management, who has retail experience, but who can’t get a better job than that? In December she’ll graduate from a seminary with a degree in Children’s ministry, and no gaurantee that she’ll be able to use that. Where they (she and her husband) will be living, the closest Walmart’s is an hour away. Oh, and her work record is mostly with Walmarts. She worked for Subway for awhile and found that even worse than Walmarts. Such is the climate of our day. Half of all college graduates are either underemployed or unemployed. And we want to call this free trade?

Free trade includes the selling and buying of employees skills. There is a market for that. If you want to sell yourself, it wouldn’t hurt to learn the techniques of successful sales people. I did that. I had just been fired from a job as computer programmer. I started a campaign to find an employer who would hire a failed computer programmer. I sent out about a hundred resumes and called up each manager as a followup. After a month, I landed a job.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Well, Leaf, if you want to keep it simple, your definition is…“OK”

I like to go a little deeper and bring out what constitutes an “honest” TRADER. Your definition is a little vague in that department.

You may call it a more “honest” definition. But it looks to me like your definition is an attempt to change the subject of the thread to one you feel more comfortable answering. The fact is that commerce today takes place under a variety of economic systems in various countries. Within that variety the question posed in the topic of this thread is applicable. Individual consumers can still make decisions based on the “fair trade” concept, even when that trade is not the kind that your “honest” definition wants to consider. Read the title of this thread again. So do you have anything to say about Catholic teaching as it relates to this question?

 

[sallybutler]

If governments didn’t get involved by subsidizing companies in their country so that they could undercut imports or so that exporters could undercut the products in the countries they were selling to, then I’d be inclined to say they are most likely equal.

However, that is not the world we live in. We subsidize some of our industries, other countries subsidize their industries. We tend not to apply tariffs, other countries do. Currency manipulation happens more in some countries than in others, creating unequal markets.

Fair trade, theoretically, tries to balance out the inequities created by differences in economies. However, in practice, it isn’t very successful. Free trade, theoretically, would result in each side getting what they felt was a fair deal. Again, in practice, not so successful.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

You may call it a more “honest” definition. But it looks to me like your definition is an attempt to change the subject of the thread to one you feel more comfortable answering. The fact is that commerce today takes place under a variety of economic systems in various countries. Within that variety the question posed in the topic of this thread is applicable. Individual consumers can still make decisions based on the “fair trade” concept, even when that trade is not the kind that your “honest” definition wants to consider. Read the title of this thread again. So do you have anything to say about Catholic teaching as it relates to this question?

You are right Leaf.

My attempt to define terms does, indeed seem like a thread hijack. Apologies to all.

Allow me to comment on the question posed by the OP.

Since the term “FAIR TRADE” is not defined by any known economist or peer reviewed scholarly paper…the question is ambiguous.

Catholic Relief Services define FAIR TRADE as: “At its heart, fair trade is about building respectful, enduring relationships.” ?

Economists define FREE TRADE as: “The unrestricted purchase and sale of goods and services between countries without the imposition of constraints such as tariffs, duties and quotas.”

While Fair Trade is a “feel good, raise-the-standard-of-living-in-the-third world…via government regulations” scheme, Free Trade is an economic policy that is actually working.

I see this thread turning into another Capitalism vs Socialism argument with the Church in the middle.

 

[sallybutler]

You are right Leaf.

My attempt to define terms does, indeed seem like a thread hijack. Apologies to all.

Allow me to comment on the question posed by the OP.

Since the term “FAIR TRADE” is not defined by any known economist or peer reviewed scholarly paper…the question is ambiguous.

Catholic Relief Services define FAIR TRADE as: “At its heart, fair trade is about building respectful, enduring relationships.” ?

Economists define FREE TRADE as: “The unrestricted purchase and sale of goods and services between countries without the imposition of constraints such as tariffs, duties and quotas.”

While Fair Trade is a “feel good, raise-the-standard-of-living-in-the-third world…via government regulations” scheme, Free Trade is an economic policy that is actually working.

I see this thread turning into another Capitalism vs Socialism argument with the Church in the middle.

Believe it or not, Zoltan, I aged with you on you definition of fair trade.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Since the term “FAIR TRADE” is not defined by any known economist or peer reviewed scholarly paper…the question is ambiguous.

Catholic Relief Services define FAIR TRADE as: “At its heart, fair trade is about building respectful, enduring relationships.” ?

I agree with your shrug. That description is too squishy to be useful as a definition. But if you think of “fair trade” as a personal consumer choice rather than a government imposed system, then fair trade is not really in the same subject area as free trade. Therefore you could have both. There is no need to choose between them because they are apples and oranges.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I agree with your shrug. That description is too squishy to be useful as a definition. But if you think of “fair trade” as a personal consumer choice rather than a government imposed system, then fair trade is not really in the same subject area as free trade. Therefore you could have both. There is no need to choose between them because they are apples and oranges.

Right again Leaf.

How long do you think fair trade, as a personal consumer choice will last until some groups begin barking for government enforcement?