Is "free will" explicitly stated in the Bible / Do Protestants accept it as tradition

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sabrinaofmn:
My question is this: is “free will” explicitly stated in the Bible, or is this yet another instance wherein Protestants are accepting Tradition without acknowleging that they are accepting Tradition? Is “free will” another argument against sola scriptura?
Hey, Sabrina:

I’ve spoken with Protestants of many different denominations & they run the gamut from believing there is no such thing as free will to believing that God plays no part at all in drawing them to Himself. As examples, John Calvin taught that God’s grace could not ever be resisted (once He chose someone, that person had not the power to refuse Him). On the other hand, John Wesley (who was the founder of the Methodist denomination) taught that men & women have complete freedom to accept or reject God.

From what i’ve learned, most Protestants are somewhere in the middle & agree that this is an issue they may debate, but should never divide over.

What do you think, Sabrina?
 
The Idea of freedom, and free will, is tied up with the ability to Love. A good point was made in regards to the original question, with the example of standing on the top of the building: Soverignty of God vs. Limitations of being created. I guess I wanted to expand a bit on that in regards to the theme of moral choices.

I’m going to bring up the Dog again, but I’m using it in a completely different way:

Why do you spay/neuter a dog?

Because a dog cannot say “no” to it’s instincts.

A dog (and any other created thing except for humans) is incapable of self-awareness (essentially, the ability to ask the question “Who am I?”) and is therefore ruled by (Slave to) it’s instincts.

As humans, we are made in the image of God and therefore have self-awareness. Ultimately every human’s reason for being (Our pre-destination, you might say…Flying in the face of Calvinism here) is to be with God…Every single soul created is created to be with God…this is our purpose. If you speak of “absolute free-will” as the ability to change anything about our existance to fit our whim or desire, then you are correct in saying this doesn’t exist. WE CANNOT CHANGE OUR PURPOSE FOR EXISTING.

So, here we see what has led us to where we are as a culture (in North-America particularily), is a misunderstanding of what FREEDOM is.

Freedom is NOT the ability to do whatever one wishes. This is actually personal totalitarianism (I will be granted what I desire, regardless of the cost or effect on other people).

Freedom is the ability for one to order one’s life to it’s true purpose (to align one’s actions/life to the plan of God for our very existance (not my will, but yours be done).

“Absolute” Free-will, as you have been discussing it, only God has. That is because God, in his very self, defines the absolute (such as, the law of gravity, natural law, etc).

So, back to the Dog example: Why do we not spay/neuter humans as a regular practice?

Because we have FREEDOM (Free-will) from our instincts. Our very human-ness (i.e. image of God (difference between us and animals) is found in the ability to control our appetites, our desires. Does this mean that desires are wrong? Not at all, but along with our freedom comes a RESPONSIBILITY to order those desires to our original purpose for existing in the first place. Buy regualarily practicing this (Gee, this sounds like developing virtues…) we become more FREE. By doing this, though, we realize that our desires start to fall in line with the will of God, because our will is the very thing that God created to choose: To choose to Love Him.

The spay/neuter example also leads right into the discussion of contraception, which I won’t go into much here, cause it’s not the right forum, but I’ll say this:

Contraception exists for only one purpose: To make us less human, and more like animals…

If we do not have the ability to say “No” to our own desires, and therefore turn to things that enable us to avoid RESPONSIBILITY for our moral actions, would that not say that you have no more freedom than, say, a dog? :eek:

If we are unable to say no, than our “yes” (our freely given “yes”) is meaningless.

(And this is why divorce rates are 60% or worse).

Something to think about… 😉
 
In the garden of Getsemane Jesus prayed that the cup would pass him by, but not my will but yours Father be done.

The Apostles asked Jesus how to pray, and Jesus said when you pray say "Our Father etc’
and if we go on, the Our Father does say "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven " JESUS always done the FATHER’S will as opposed to His own, so in that respect Jesus may have gave his freewill to the Father.
St, John Viaenney said that the only thing we truly have that we can call our own is our freewill and we should make an offering of it to God every day, Padre Pio did the same, and they wrought many miracles from God by giving their freewill to God.
 
Matt16_18 said:
Melchior

Could you define please what you mean by “absolute free will”? I totally agree that no human has ever possessed the ability to do whatever he or she feels like doing. As for God having “absolute free will”, what does that mean? Can God act against his nature?

In relation to God’s action on people… Look up in Exodus 4:21, 7:3, 14:4, 14:17. (God hardens Egyptian pharoah’s heart)
 
Mike

God is love. Was God acting against his nature in the scriptures you cite?

Are you arguing that God is free to commit the sin of hatred, and that God is free to do evil things because he has “absolute” free will?
 
Matt16_18 said:
Mike

God is love. Was God acting against his nature in the scriptures you cite?

Are you arguing that God is free to commit the sin of hatred, and that God is free to do evil things because he has “absolute” free will?

I hear somewhere that hardens really means suppresses… So God suppresses pharoah’s heart not to allow Israelites to be freed.

You said God is love… Here it is…

from www.thehighway.com
it explains : God is perfectly displeased with the sinner. The sinner hates God, disobeys God, is ungrateful to God for all His favors, would kill God if he could. He is dead in trespasses and sins. (Eph.2:1) *“The thoughts and intents of his heart are only evil continually.” * (Gen.6:5) He is the slave of sin (John 8:34), the servant of the devil, (Eph.2:2).

God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred of him, *“1 hate them with a perfect hatred.” * (Ps. 139:22)

Why does God do so much good for those He perfectly hates and as soon as they die impenitent send them immediately to hell and never in all eternity does them one solitary favor more? It is to show His willingness to forgive the sinner if only he will repent. It shows the sincerity of God’s willingness to pardon the greatest sinner that, even while He hates him with a perfect hatred, He showers him with constant daily blessings.

More context you can go : the-highway.com/lovesinner_Gerstner.html
 
Mike
  • God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred of him …*.
God hates no one. God hates the sin, He does not hate the sinner. I read the article that you linked by Dr. Gerstner and was appalled by it.

Can Satan be more perfect than God in his hatred of sinners? Worshipping Satan would be less offensive to me than worshipping a god that is the fountain of perfect hatred for sinners.
 
Matt16_18 said:
Mike
  • God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred of him …*.
God hates no one. God hates the sin, He does not hate the sinner. I read the article that you linked by Dr. Gerstner and was appalled by it.

Can Satan be more perfect than God in his hatred of sinners? Worshipping Satan would be less offensive to me than worshipping a god that is the fountain of perfect hatred for sinners.

Do you speak for the Bible or let the Bible speak as it is?

Sometimes people don’t agree with what the Bible says and intend to speak for the Bible instead of letting it speak. (that includes of trying to redefine the words.)
 
Do you speak for the Bible or let the Bible speak as it is?

Apparently the Bible is speaking to me differently than it is speaking to you.

What is the ultimate temporal authority that you recognize when it comes to interpreting the bible?
 
Regarding free will and Protestant tradition; Luther’s doctrine of Absolute Necessity that denies the preferential will of God, and the Calvanist view of determinism seem to preclude the possibility of free will in subjects, unless logical consistency is trashed. But the Protestant’s relationship to reason is yet another but related question to free will.
Tom
 
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tomridenour:
Regarding free will and Protestant tradition; Luther’s doctrine of Absolute Necessity that denies the preferential will of God, and the Calvanist view of determinism seem to preclude the possibility of free will in subjects, unless logical consistency is trashed. But the Protestant’s relationship to reason is yet another but related question to free will.
Tom
Answer this logical question: What is it about a person such as you or any other Christian that makes them choose God vs. those who don’t? Logically it is either something superior in the person who chooses God or God Himself chose to quicken their spirit to believe. It can only be one or the other. One rightfully allows for boasting since we believers must have some quality that unbelievers don’t that caused us to believe. Or we were chosen by God and it was all His mercy toward us. Which one is it? Since not everyone believes those who do, do so for only one of these two reasons. I know I am no better than the unbeliever. Yet for some reason I believ and they don’t.

Mel
 
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