Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin?

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It is amazing to me, that so many (fortunately for Catholicism not all) modern Catholics on a public message board cannot recognize the true reality found in the first three chapters of Genesis.

:banghead:
 
I is for the Individual Adam, part 3.

In this century, there are some, not all, other Catholics who have a bit of trouble with the nitty-gritty of the individual Adam. To help other Catholics, may I respectfully suggest that we use the following basic fundamental axioms as a very good tool for exploring, explaining, and validating the existence of Adam and Original Sin.
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
  3. Every individual human has the inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator.
Axiom 1. God as Creator exists.

Normally, some of us have a tough time proving that God exists as a good God. God and Original Sin is open season for those people who want to attack God as being a terrible father. Others want to protect God by changing His Catholic Church into some kind of a Big Tent where annoying doctrines like Original Sin (fly in the ointment) disappear in the name of friendship.

The individual Adam and his tale of woe challenges us to look clearly at the Creator element of God. Thus, we pause at the abrupt shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26-27. The world is wonderful with its beautiful animals in a beautiful universe and then suddenly a creature appears who can challenge the wisdom of the Creator.

Paragraph 1730 of the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition explains God’s wisdom.
**CCC1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

I am sure that there are people who consider God’s wisdom as a dumb way of loving humans. If God really loved humans, why didn’t He create them so they would not sin? Why allow humans to reject the Divine Creator?

A brief answer. The indented paragraph in CCC 1730 above is in small print which means that its observations are of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations." (CCC 20-21) What I have finally focused on is the truth that humans are like God which is exactly what Genesis 1: 27 and CCC 355 say.
CCC 396 begins with
“God created man in His image and established him in His friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God.”

But, Adam cannot be equal to God. Two equally all powerful primary Gods is a no-no.

Since Adam could not be equal to God, the conclusion is that he lives in submission to God. Again, the question is asked – What not make that submission a permanent one? A permanent submission would put the human into the kingdom of animals where none have a true spiritual soul in the image of God. Our dogs and cats cannot choose hell.
We read again from CCC 1730
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
Master over his acts" means that Adam is created with intellective free choice because he is in the image of God. Being in the image of God means that Adam “of his own accord [can] seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to Him” (CCC 1730)

I know that sounds like circular reasoning. But, when one thinks deeply, both ends of the circle are truths. God as Creator is a real truth. Adam as a material/spiritual creature is a real truth. What is most important is that the original friendship relationship between Creator and creature is a real truth.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
 
Axiom 1. God as Creator exists.

Normally, some of us have a tough time proving that God exists as a good God. God and Original Sin is open season for those people who want to attack God as being a terrible father. Others want to protect God by changing His Catholic Church into some kind of a Big Tent where annoying doctrines like Original Sin (fly in the ointment) disappear in the name of friendship.

The individual Adam and his tale of woe challenges us to look clearly at the Creator element of God. Thus, we pause at the abrupt shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26-27. The world is wonderful with its beautiful animals in a beautiful universe and then suddenly a creature appears who can challenge the wisdom of the Creator.

Paragraph 1730 of the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition explains God’s wisdom.
**CCC1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

I am sure that there are people who consider God’s wisdom as a dumb way of loving humans. If God really loved humans, why didn’t He create them so they would not sin? Why allow humans to reject the Divine Creator?

A brief answer. The indented paragraph in CCC 1730 above is in small print which means that its observations are of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations." (CCC 20-21) What I have finally focused on is the truth that humans are like God which is exactly what Genesis 1: 27 and CCC 355 say.
CCC 396 begins with
“God created man in His image and established him in His friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God.”

But, Adam cannot be equal to God. Two equally all powerful primary Gods is a no-no.

Since Adam could not be equal to God, the conclusion is that he lives in submission to God. Again, the question is asked – Why not make that submission a permanent one? A permanent submission would put the human into the kingdom of animals where none have a true spiritual soul in the image of God. Our dogs and cats cannot choose hell.
We read again from CCC 1730
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
Master over his acts" means that Adam is created with intellective free choice because he is in the image of God. Being in the image of God means that Adam “of his own accord [can] seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to Him” (CCC 1730)

I know that sounds like circular reasoning. But, when one thinks deeply, both ends of the circle are truths. God as Creator is a real truth. Adam as a material/spiritual creature is a real truth. What is most important is that the original friendship relationship between Creator and creature is a real truth.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
Continuing the above points about God as Creator.

If we were at the letter L, it would be God’s LOVE for Adam. By extension, God’s love comes to us because we are Adam’s descendants. The technical description (CCC 404) is "The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. CCC 404 continues “…we do know by Revelation that Adam had received Original Holiness and Justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

I can imagine that the author of those inspiring first chapters of Genesis could feel God’s love and then shared it with future readers. Genesis 2: 8 and Genesis 2: 18 are beginning samples.

In my neighborhood, Fall weather is so beautiful that I am grateful that God is the magnificent Creator. Perhaps this is a good time to tip toe through those special first chapters and note the times where God shows His love.

If you wish, I would enjoy seeing your citations. I wonder if the first citation will be Genesis 3: 15. The footnote to CCC 410 adds Genesis 3: 9.
 
If we were at the letter L, it would be God’s LOVE for Adam. By extension, God’s love comes to us because we are Adam’s descendants. The technical description (CCC 404) is "The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. CCC 404 continues “…we do know by Revelation that Adam had received Original Holiness and Justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

I can imagine that the author of those inspiring first chapters of Genesis could feel God’s love and then shared it with future readers. Genesis 2: 8 and Genesis 2: 18 are beginning samples.

In my neighborhood, Fall weather is so beautiful that I am grateful that God is the magnificent Creator. Perhaps this is a good time to tip toe through those special first chapters and note the times where God shows His love.

If you wish, I would enjoy seeing your citations. I wonder if the first citation will be Genesis 3: 15. The footnote to CCC 410 adds Genesis 3: 9.
While we are trying to find a quiet moment in our busy lives so that we can actually read the first three loving chapters of Genesis (post 379) and find God’s signs of His loving humans starting with the first real human Adam – I had a weird thought. Older than dirt grannies are entitled to some weird thoughts.😉

Personally, I think the author of the thought provoking first chapters leans toward the philosophical discipline. But, what if the author was an artist who, instead of painting, used written descriptions or used written clues to the beauty in the Garden of Eden. Immediately, I can hear an objection by a reader. What about the darkness of Original Sin and its terrible history in the lives of ourselves? When Genesis 2: 15-17 is an explanation of Original Sin, where is the explanation of beauty?
 
When Genesis 2: 15-17 is an explanation of Original Sin, where is the explanation of beauty?
God, the source of beauty, is the Creator in verse 1, Genesis, chapter 1. Like Adam and Eve, we can see the beauty of God by looking around us at the truly amazing universe including hundreds of flowers at our feet and thousands of stars beyond our eyes. The first Garden of Eden would not have less. The author tells us “God saw how good it was.” Genesis 1: 25. Then in the following verses, the author shifts to the most beautiful creatures. God, totally beautiful love, creates the human species in His image. CCC 355-357 The human person is worthy of profound respect.

Rightfully, we need to understand CCC 397-400 which explains the consequences of Original Sin. Death makes its entrance into human history. CCC 400. Still, our human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it;" CCC 405.

We cannot forget that our wounded human nature transmitted by propagation is in the image of our loving God. This is because God creates the spiritual soul which causes the body made of matter to become a living human body. The Catholic Church teaches that a human is not “two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.” CCC 365.

We know that our human nature is beautiful because God gave it to us because He loves us and wants us to “share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life.” CCC 356. Yes, Original Sin is all the words which describe evil. Yet, the Genesis author knew that God had not abandoned Adam and Eve. “For the man and his wife the Lord God made leather garments, with which He clothed them.” Genesis 3: 21. These clothes were not ugly.
 
**J is for the Jewish Scientist **

J is for the Jewish Scientist/Author who wrote the beginning of Genesis. Yes. Everyone knows that the first chapter of Genesis not a science textbook. Before answering too quickly, what does the basic Scientific (Inductive) Method really accomplish? It explains how the material world works. In order to explain our universal world, one uses a basic scientific principle – Observe without prejudice. We cannot deny that the science-bent author observed up, down, and around. The material world did not change because of his creative descriptions.

For fun, google Primordial Soup. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_soup Definitely this is not your grandmother’s favorite recipe. The formal name is Abiogenesis. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Before Aristotle, the Genesis scientist observed a ladder of life.

Aristotle’s vision of a Great Chain of Being, diagram below,
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0_0/evo_07

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/images/evo/chainofbeing.gif
Please note that this link challenges the Catholic teachings on the fully-complete human nature.

Also, please remember the ban on evolution discussion. Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution Threads

Returning to the abiogenesis question, the Genesis scientist correctly answers that God did it. Genesis 1:1. We do not need to argue here about the existence of a Creator God because that is a basic axiom of the Catholic Church. Therefore, yes God and no God belong in the Apologetics Forum.

The scientific problem which is in the amazing first three Genesis chapters is the dramatic shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26-27 to human nature in Genesis 2: 7 & Genesis 2: 15-17.

We used H for Heaven above. However, our human nature can be considered heavenly. 😉

Our friendly Jewish Scientist needs more attention …
To be continued.
 
Before we step into the nitty-gritty life of the curious author of the first chock-full, blast from the past, chapters of Genesis. 😃

I have seen Catholics being intimidated by the super intelligence of natural science. Standing on the moon does not mean that a brilliant human created it. Just because the world of the scientist is material in space and time, that is no reason to eliminate the spiritual world of our Creator God.

We need to remember, word for word, that Divine Revelation trumps! 👍
 
The scientific problem which the amazing Genesis author/scientist found in the creation story is not abiogenesis nor is it a variety of speciation events. In normal language, the scientific problem is the difference between a Beaver Dam and the Hoover Dam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Dam

The curious Genesis scientist looked at himself and asked “Who am I who is so different from birds, sea monsters, cattle, busy beavers, and creeping things of the earth?” Personally, I think that the clever Jewish Scientist gave us Genesis 1: 26 in order to gain time to form a proper hypothesis.😉

In addition to the first axiom taught by the Catholic Church, there are two proper hypotheses describing human nature, Genesis 2: 7 & Genesis 2: 15-17.

Three Fundamental Axioms.
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
  3. Every individual human has the inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator.
 
Three Fundamental Axioms.
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
  3. Every individual human has the inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator.
Looking at our world with scientific eyes cannot answer all our questions. There is the big question “Why?”

Why does a supreme transcendent super-natural Deity want to interact with the human species which has a decomposing anatomy? All kinds of answers, including multiple legends, pop up on the internet. Maybe there is a current reader who can figure out how the scientific author, who is also a philosophical author, proposed a decent answer in the first three chapters of the mighty book Genesis.

The Catholic Church offers the explanation that God wants us humans to be part of His Kingdom. Coincidentally, 😉 the next alphabetic point is

K is for the Kingdom of God
 
K is for the Kingdom of God, part 1.

Everyone does this or most everyone does it.

When we think about the Kingdom of God, we start our thoughts rolling with the kingdoms that we see and know in our beautiful natural material world. A kingdom is first of all something very special in our eyes. Starting with the material perception of kingdom is all right. Ancient writers often looked first at their own living environment in order to understand the spiritual world of God. In the beginning verses in Genesis, we find the animal kingdom which God called good. All that is ok as long as we do not see God in our image.
Genesis 2: 8 -9 usccb.org/bible/genesis/2

8
The LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east,* and placed there the man whom he had formed.e
9
Out of the ground the LORD God made grow every tree that was delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.f

That Genesis “garden” is often described in different ways. For now, may we see that garden as God’s kingdom?
Genesis 3: 8-9 usccb.org/bible/genesis/3

8
When they heard the sound of the LORD God walking about in the garden at the breezy time of the day,* the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.d
9
The LORD God then called to the man and asked him: Where are you?
 
K is for the Kingdom of God, part 1.

Everyone does this or most everyone does it.

When we think about the Kingdom of God, we start our thoughts rolling with the kingdoms that we see and know in our beautiful natural material world. A kingdom is first of all something very special in our eyes. Starting with the material perception of kingdom is all right. Ancient writers often looked first at their own living environment in order to understand the spiritual world of God. In the beginning verses in Genesis, we find the animal kingdom which God called good. All that is ok as long as we do not see God in our image.
Genesis 2: 8 -9 usccb.org/bible/genesis/2

8
The LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east,* and placed there the man whom he had formed.e
9
Out of the ground the LORD God made grow every tree that was delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.f
That Genesis “garden” is often described in different ways. For now, may we see that garden as God’s kingdom?
Genesis 3: 8-9 usccb.org/bible/genesis/3
8
When they heard the sound of the LORD God walking about in the garden at the breezy time of the day,* the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.d
9
The LORD God then called to the man and asked him: Where are you?
Regarding this comment in post 387 –
“That Genesis “garden” is often described in different ways. For now, may we see that garden as God’s kingdom?”

It is reasonable that we see that garden as God’s kingdom; but, I truly doubt that the author of the reasonable first three chapters of Genesis would have seen that garden as any kind of a “kingdom.” Questions such as "Is it God’s garden kingdom or Adam’s garden kingdom? haunt me. Who is the primary character in these intriguing chapters – God or Adam? Or are they equal, not in power, but in importance to the human species?

One of my guesses to questions such as the above is that the historic author was telling us that in all the centuries to follow, we will be unique because we are in the image of God. Yes, I know that there are people who say that the author was writing for his generation and that is why we should kindly ignore some of his thoughts.

The current obvious difficulty when it comes to understanding the first three chapters of Genesis is that interpretations have multiplied like rabbits. Personally, I would like to find some kind of truth in the rather weird interpretations. Unfortunately, there is no truth in the wishful thinking that Eve committed the Original Sin. Sorry, Adam, your finger pointing failed.

Perhaps, this is a good place to spend some quiet time. Many gardens have a variety of flowers. Maybe it is time for us to smell the roses. 🙂
 
**Post 388 is a challenge **
**to thinking individuals **
who care about the truth.
 
Regarding this comment in post 387 –
“That Genesis “garden” is often described in different ways. For now, may we see that garden as God’s kingdom?”

It is reasonable that we see that garden as God’s kingdom; but, I truly doubt that the author of the reasonable first three chapters of Genesis would have seen that garden as any kind of a “kingdom.” Questions such as "Is it God’s garden kingdom or Adam’s garden kingdom? haunt me. Who is the primary character in these intriguing chapters – God or Adam? Or are they equal, not in power, but in importance to the human species?

One of my guesses to questions such as the above is that the historic author was telling us that in all the centuries to follow, we will be unique because we are in the image of God. Yes, I know that there are people who say that the author was writing for his generation and that is why we should kindly ignore some of his thoughts.

The current obvious difficulty when it comes to understanding the first three chapters of Genesis is that interpretations have multiplied like rabbits. Personally, I would like to find some kind of truth in the rather weird interpretations. Unfortunately, there is no truth in the wishful thinking that Eve committed the Original Sin. Sorry, Adam, your finger pointing failed.

Perhaps, this is a good place to spend some quiet time. Many gardens have a variety of flowers. Maybe it is time for us to smell the roses. 🙂
I don’t think the garden was meant to be thought of as a Kingdom, because later we have Jesus teaching that the Kingdom of God is within.

Maybe some people would think the garden was the Kingdom, because it was the first known description of God and creation for the Jewish people.

The interpretation of the Original sin that explains ownership of sinfulness is probably the easiest way to understand the story, but it fails to explain the need of a saviour.

Eve sins, when God asks her what she had done, she blames the snake. Adam then blames Eve (and some would say God).
All three are punished, and some punishment is then passed onto the next generation of humans.
 
I don’t think the garden was meant to be thought of as a Kingdom, because later we have Jesus teaching that the Kingdom of God is within.

Maybe some people would think the garden was the Kingdom, because it was the first known description of God and creation for the Jewish people.
These comments of simpleas bring us to K is for the Kingdom of God, part 2.

Personally, I love the idea that the Kingdom of God is within. Still, the Kingdom of God is our universe. Part 2 is that God’s love is limitless when it comes to our human thoughts about a kingdom. God’s love brings our material bodies out of the animal kingdom and into joy eternal aka the State of Sanctifying Grace. Realistically, while we are in the State of Sanctifying Grace, we can be in deep pain for any number of reasons. Still, God’s kingdom prevails. It is our free choice to remain inside God’s kingdom or to freely leave His kingdom.
The interpretation of the Original sin that explains ownership of sinfulness is probably the easiest way to understand the story, but it fails to explain the need of a saviour.
That “failure” is often present in discussions.
Eve sins, when God asks her what she had done, she blames the snake. Adam then blames Eve (and some would say God).
All three are punished, and some punishment is then passed onto the next generation of humans.
My thought is that punishment is really the natural result of Adam’s disobedience. When Adam chose to leave God’s kingdom, the outside weather can be bitter cold. Even then, God loves Adam and Eve by making garments to clothe them. Genesis 3: 21. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer regarding the use of figurative language. However, when I am low, I want verse 21 to be literal.
 
So far this has been an interesting Sunday. I was an hour early for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. :o I hope that makes up for all the times I have been late. 😦

The next interesting item is that we are at the letter L. God’s love has been presented in some of the previous alphabetical posts. As God is infinite goodness, we could continue discussing God’s unconditional love until the cows come home. Is it a coincidence that the concept that God loves unconditionally appears in another thread in a different forum forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1030167
Today, post 79 is the recent post. I am not sure when this discussion started or when it will end.

Years back, I saw a brief CAF discussion on God’s unconditional love. Apparently, the poster who asked the question was satisfied. Currently, the unconditional love puzzle has expanded into a thousand pieces. I love puzzles. 😃
 
L is for God’s Unconditional LOVE

Here is an interesting idea. If God does not forgive until we decide we “want it”, this means that He withholds forgiveness. This would be the opposite of a God Who loves us unconditionally.

Here is more. The image of a God Who punished Adam and Eve, the give-and-take-away, compromises the infinite mercy of God. Question. Where is God’s unconditional love and mercy in the explanation of Original Sin? Answer. Genesis 2: 15-17 is based on Genesis 1: 27 & Genesis 1: 31. In our century, we could find the answer in CCC 1730.

Genesis 2: 15-17
15
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.
16
The LORD God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden*(“http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/2#01002016-i”)
17
except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.

Genesis 1: 27
God created mankind in His image;
in the image of God He created them;
male and female* He created them.

Genesis 1: 31
God looked at everything He had made, and found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed—the sixth day.

**CCC 1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

Links
Sacred Scripture
usccb.org/bible/genesis/1
usccb.org/bible/genesis/2

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1730.htm
 
L is for God’s Unconditional LOVE, part 1.

There is a difference between questioning God’s unconditional love and questioning God’s unconditional love. 🙂 To understand this difference, one needs to go back to the journalism mantra Who? How? What? When? Where? and Why?
We sing the “What?”

Amazing grace. How sweet the sound
that saved a wretch like me.

Many of us can picture God, in unconditional love, reaching down to us and with His strong arms, He pulls us from the mud. Certainly, God knows our muddy condition. Still, He never minds getting dirty. Somewhere there is a Scripture verse about “washing our robes.”

In my childhood neighborhood, there would be pictures of God as an old-looking man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud. That is so far from the truth :rotfl:
A better picture truth is Jesus as the Good Shepherd. How wonderful it can be when we picture ourself safe in His arms. No matter how muddy we can be, Jesus does not drop us.

The second “questioning God’s unconditional love” often has a dark purpose. What seems to be innocent proposals turns out to be a denial of human’s intellective free choice. When it becomes impossible to reject God because God “automatically” forgives, the road is open to changing the Catholic Church from inside.

In 1950, Pope Pius XII strongly warned about the danger of softening annoying doctrines so that everyone can be comfortable in a Big Tent religion.

From the encyclical Humani Generis.

11. Another danger is perceived which is all the more serious because it is more concealed beneath the mask of virtue. There are many who, deploring disagreement among men and intellectual confusion, through an imprudent zeal for souls, are urged by a great and ardent desire to do away with the barrier that divides good and honest men; these advocate an “eirenism” according to which, by setting aside the questions which divide men, they aim not only at joining forces to repel the attacks of atheism, but also at reconciling things opposed to one another in the field of dogma. And as in former times some questioned whether the traditional apologetics of the Church did not constitute an obstacle rather than a help to the winning of souls for Christ, so today some are presumptive enough to question seriously whether theology and theological methods, such as with the approval of ecclesiastical authority are found in our schools, should not only be perfected, but also completely reformed, in order to promote the more efficacious propagation of the kingdom of Christ everywhere throughout the world among men of every culture and religious opinion.

12. Now if these only aimed at adapting ecclesiastical teaching and methods to modern conditions and requirements, through the introduction of some new explanations, there would be scarcely any reason for alarm. But some through enthusiasm for an imprudent “eirenism” seem to consider as an obstacle to the restoration of fraternal union, things founded on the laws and principles given by Christ and likewise on institutions founded by Him, or which are the defense and support of the integrity of the faith, and the removal of which would bring about the union of all, but only to their destruction.

In my opinion, the words “but only to their destruction.” can describe what has been happening in our era. For example, empty pews.
 
L is for God’s Unconditional LOVE, part 1.

There is a difference between questioning God’s unconditional love and questioning God’s unconditional love. 🙂 To understand this difference, one needs to go back to the journalism mantra Who? How? What? When? Where? and Why?
We sing the “What?”

Amazing grace. How sweet the sound
that saved a wretch like me.

Many of us can picture God, in unconditional love, reaching down to us and with His strong arms, He pulls us from the mud. Certainly, God knows our muddy condition. Still, He never minds getting dirty. Somewhere there is a Scripture verse about “washing our robes.”

In my childhood neighborhood, there would be pictures of God as an old-looking man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud. That is so far from the truth :rotfl:
A better picture truth is Jesus as the Good Shepherd. How wonderful it can be when we picture ourself safe in His arms. No matter how muddy we can be, Jesus does not drop us.

The second “questioning God’s unconditional love” often has a dark purpose. What seems to be innocent proposals turns out to be a denial of human’s intellective free choice. When it becomes impossible to reject God because God “automatically” forgives, the road is open to changing the Catholic Church from inside.

In 1950, Pope Pius XII strongly warned about the danger of softening annoying doctrines so that everyone can be comfortable in a Big Tent religion.

From the encyclical Humani Generis.

11. Another danger is perceived which is all the more serious because it is more concealed beneath the mask of virtue. There are many who, deploring disagreement among men and intellectual confusion, through an imprudent zeal for souls, are urged by a great and ardent desire to do away with the barrier that divides good and honest men; these advocate an “eirenism” according to which, by setting aside the questions which divide men, they aim not only at joining forces to repel the attacks of atheism, but also at reconciling things opposed to one another in the field of dogma. And as in former times some questioned whether the traditional apologetics of the Church did not constitute an obstacle rather than a help to the winning of souls for Christ, so today some are presumptive enough to question seriously whether theology and theological methods, such as with the approval of ecclesiastical authority are found in our schools, should not only be perfected, but also completely reformed, in order to promote the more efficacious propagation of the kingdom of Christ everywhere throughout the world among men of every culture and religious opinion.

12. Now if these only aimed at adapting ecclesiastical teaching and methods to modern conditions and requirements, through the introduction of some new explanations, there would be scarcely any reason for alarm. But some through enthusiasm for an imprudent “eirenism” seem to consider as an obstacle to the restoration of fraternal union, things founded on the laws and principles given by Christ and likewise on institutions founded by Him, or which are the defense and support of the integrity of the faith, and the removal of which would bring about the union of all, but only to their destruction.

In my opinion, the words “but only to their destruction.” can describe what has been happening in our era. For example, empty pews.
Granny, dear, you can see that it is a non-starter because the cause is misplaced, and there is no “modern arianism”. I would love to talk to the fellow who gave your workshop to find out what his real beef was. I am sure he is well-intended, and so are you, but we need to go after the real roots of apathy and rejection, not the false ones.

Arianism:

Such is the genuine doctrine of Arius. Using Greek terms, it denies that the Son is of one essence, nature, or substance with God; He is not consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father, and therefore not like Him, or equal in dignity, or co-eternal, or within the real sphere of Deity.

home.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm

We can find the idea that Jesus is not consubstantial with God all over the place! First, we can look at Judaism, next Islam, then Hinduism, Buddhism for a start. Then we can find the same in “New Age” etc.

Very few of the people finding something more worth going to outside of mass are joining some other religion, Granny. I could argue that more are attending the Church of sports arenas.

I am wondering what you think of this, though, Granny. Two people of slightly (and I mean slightly!) different views about Love can charitably compare and contrast views, and the fruits of the discussion can be that everyone involved gains a deeper understanding. Our curiosity and yearn to know God draws everyone deeper relationship, and (voila!) people are also enticed to value spirituality and, of course, the eucharist.

Do you agree? And, if so, can we proceed with open minds to address the questions you put forth about Love?

Blessings and Love 🙂
 
**L is for God’s Unconditional LOVE, part 1. **
Continuation of the “What” in post 394.
“The journalism mantra Who? How? What? When? Where? and Why?”
"We sing the “What?”
“Amazing grace. How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.”

And we know the love of “what” when the Good Shepherd searches for us and finds us. “Like a shepherd He feeds His flock; in His arms He gathers the lambs,” *Isaiah *40:11. The companion teaching is found in paragraph 1260, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
CCC 1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

The “what” becomes prominent in our lives, when we hear Jesus say: John 6: 51
link usccb.org/bible/john/6
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is My flesh for the life of the world.”

We can have the “what” of the Real Presence of Jesus, during the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We can hold Jesus on our tongue or in our hand. That is true unconditional love for us.
 
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