Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin?

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Good Morning,

I’m sorry, Granny. For the life of me I cannot figure out what “apply a personal preference” has to do with agreeing with the observation “they do not know what they are doing”.

Please feel free to clarify!
No problem. You can discard it. 🙂
I did some searching, and this is the best answer I can find. I completely agree with it and all the associated paragraphs:

752 In Christian usage, the word “church” designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. “The Church” is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ’s Body.

Now, are we on the same page? 🙂
We are on the same page. 🙂

That is the greatest definition ever. Why?

Because someone nailed me for using Church instead of Catholic Church on CAF. That really great book, the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is spot on.

Coincidentally, I found a copy of an article written as a Catholic Church bulletin insert in 2000. The second paragraph asks these two questions.
  1. Why is the Catholic Church unique?
  2. What distinguishes it, making it the sole Church that Jesus Christ founded?
Catholics, who participate at the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, loudly give the answers.

Now that we agree on Church, we can get back to Genesis 2: 15-17 as an explanation of Original Sin.
 
Returning to the alphabet

V is for Victory in the first three sacred chapters in Genesis.

If anyone can find the allegory Victory in those first three thrilling chapters of Genesis, please post.

The only way I can find Victory is with the tool of literal language with the occasional use of figurative language.

Here is what has been posted about the question of literal language. From post 838, page 56. We have discussed points 1. and 2. However, if anyone wishes to add to these points, Please feel free to do so.

Post 838
General Observation

The question of literal language or figurative language is a favorite topic. What is unique is that there are literal, that is, real events in the first three historical chapters at the beginning of Sacred Scripture. I consider these events unique because people can be hung up on language without ever truly studying what language is saying.

The key to understanding the following events is that first there has to be a deep belief in the existence of the Creator God.

1.The creation of our universe.

2.The creation of the animal kingdom.

3.The unique creation of humans which established the unique
relationship between Divinity and humanity.

4.The clarification of specific terms for a relationship between a
divine being and a non-divine being.

5.The appearance of Satan and his temptation.

6.Adam yielding to Satan and the results.
 
Good Afternoon Dear,

I was so enamored with the Second reading in today’s mass, that I must begin with that.

I urge you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that all of you agree in what you say,
and that there be no divisions among you,
but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers and sisters,
by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you.
I mean that each of you is saying,
“I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,”
or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”
Is Christ divided?
Was Paul crucified for you?
Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel,
and not with the wisdom of human eloquence,
so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.

1Cor 1:10-13,17

Our pastor spoke today about the importance of Christian unity, explaining that one of the root definitions of “diabolical” involves division, a divider. A change for the better would be one where we are not broken into ideological factions, indeed our pastor explained that Christianity/Catholicism is not an ideology, it is a body of many parts, a pluralism. Those that point fingers rejecting Cephas or Apollos are bearing and sowing the fruits of divisiveness, which is not of the Spirit.

So, Paul urges us to agree, and that agreement involves not a focus on differences, for that would be a focus that divides. We certainly are to diligently avoid passing on words that lead to condemnation, fear, or mistrust of fellow Catholics, the clear etymological root of “diabolos” is “slanderer”. We are to speak ill of no one, even though we may criticize or question their teachings. Discussion can be very interesting and engaging, and people can disagree without being disagreeable. We can all agree that Jesus is our Lord and savior, we can all agree that God is infinitely loving and merciful, we can all agree that we are called to forgive, love, and serve.

BTW: concerning “tampering”, if you follow that thread you can find (as I have) that some tampering has already been done (i.e. Aquinas, Rahner). Scripture remains a living document, not a dead one.
 
This follows post 891 about divisions.

My apology. This granny did not get the response done on time. :o:o

The Catholic Church I go to on Sunday is not divided.

We profess loudly that we "believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. (Profession of Faith, Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed) The Catholic Church I go to is seen as one because its members publically express unity of doctrine, have unity of worship, primarily in the Sacraments, and follow unity of government under one head.

The Catholic Church I go to understands and respects God’ gift of intellective free choice. It isn’t sugar coated by the attempts to tamper the work of the promised Holy Spirit. Loyal members accept flat out truth. Be careful of sugar coated original blessings and movements to rebuild. Underneath, there is a hammer to break the foundation of the Catholic Church into pieces . As soon as the foundation is gone, the walls will fall. (refer back to post 870, page 58)

By the way, the Catholic Church I go to on Sunday accepts the truths flowing from the first three reality chapters of Sacred Scripture. We are happy with these chapters as is. We do not need to sugar coat them with allegory.

From the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Eucharistic Prayer IV, Magnificat publication
http://www.ibreviary.com/m/messale.p…aristica&id=75

“You formed man in Your own image
and entrusted the whole world to his care,
so that in serving you alone, the Creator,
he might have dominion over all creatures.
And when through disobedience he had lost Your friendship,
You did not abandon him to the domain of death.
For You came in mercy to the aid of all,
so that those who seek might find you.”
 
“You formed man in Your own image
and entrusted the whole world to his care,
so that in serving you alone, the Creator,
he might have dominion over all creatures.
And when through disobedience he had lost Your friendship,
You did not abandon him to the domain of death.
For You came in mercy to the aid of all,
so that those who seek might find you.”
Beautiful, concise summary. A treasure of Catholic liturgy! Thank you for posting it. This is one of several things Catholic worship, in my opinion, does so extremely well: liturgical prayer.
 
We are on the same page. 🙂

That is the greatest definition ever. Why?

Because someone nailed me for using Church instead of Catholic Church on CAF. That really great book, the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is spot on.

Coincidentally, I found a copy of an article written as a Catholic Church bulletin insert in 2000. The second paragraph asks these two questions.
  1. Why is the Catholic Church unique?
  2. What distinguishes it, making it the sole Church that Jesus Christ founded?
Catholics, who participate at the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, loudly give the answers.

Now that we agree on Church, we can get back to Genesis 2: 15-17 as an explanation of Original Sin.
Here was the passage again:

752 In Christian usage, the word “church” designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. “The Church” is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ’s Body.

When you talk about the RCC, you may be limiting the “church” to only one aspect of the word, while CCC752 clearly states that the three meanings are inseparable. We do not draw lines when talking about which denomination is in the Body and which is not. You may wish to ask your priest if the RCC is the whole Church. He will clarify that for you.

We can have a solid bias for our own institution without being exclusive, Granny.
 
Returning to the alphabet

V is for Victory in the first three sacred chapters in Genesis.

Victory is in the third literal event in the first three sacred chapters in Genesis
3.The unique creation of humans which established the unique
relationship between Divinity and humanity. (post 890, page 60)
We find the real Victory in 1 Corinthians 15: 54-55

“Death is swallowed up in victory.
Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

We find the Incarnation.
 
The third literal event in the first three natural chapters in Genesis.
3.The unique creation of humans which established the unique
relationship between Divinity and humanity.

Please note that the Science of Human Evolution is not acceptable in the Catholic Church because this particular discipline directly denies a population of two sole fully-complete founders of the human species. (Reference: the evolution model)

Do note that the evolution model is possible when it is applied to the animal, plant, bacteria, insect, dinosaur, etc., species. This is because these species, including highly sentient species, do not have a rational spiritual soul. Therefore, they are in the material world. (The dramatic jump from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26-27)
 
Catholic Answers Magazine has a great article on the topic:

catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/evolution-and-the-magisterium

It’s not appropriate to debate it in these CAF forums (see Sticky at top of this and other forums).

There are other forums appropriate for the debate, including a Catholic apologetics ministry intended for dialogue between atheists and Catholics:
strangenotions.com

Another resource is provided by Dominican friars applying the traditional approach of Thomas Aquinas to the new issue that arose long after Aquinas.

Here, let’s get back to Scripture.
 
We do not draw lines when talking about which denomination is in the Body and which is not.
I do not want this to distract, but related to OneSheep’s comment here, I appreciate Pope Francis’ words this past week:

“This year, in our journey on the road to unity, we recall in a special way the fifth centenary of the Protestant Reformation. The fact that Catholics and Lutherans can nowadays join in commemorating an event that divided Christians, and can do so with hope, placing the emphasis on Jesus and his work of atonement, is a remarkable achievement, thanks to God and prayer, and the result of fifty years of growing mutual knowledge and ecumenical dialogue.”

From
press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2017/01/25/0058/00138.html#EN
 
It’s not appropriate to debate it in these CAF forums (see Sticky at top of this and other forums).
Whoops! The Sticky banning discussion of evolution is gone. I did not realize it. My apologies for giving outdated information.
 
Whoops! The Sticky banning discussion of evolution is gone. I did not realize it. My apologies for giving outdated information.
Not really sure about outdated information. Rather, I am thinking along the lines of missing information.
 
Whoops! The Sticky banning discussion of evolution is gone. I did not realize it. My apologies for giving outdated information.
Is the “outdated” information in this link?
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/evolution-and-the-magisterium
"Until such time as the magisterium would either reverse its twentieth-century finding that human evolution is not precluded by the deposit of faith or would make a new finding that it is required by the deposit, human evolution as a matter that is free with respect to the sources. It is a matter that must stand or fall on its own scientific merits; it is not a matter of Catholic teaching."

Charitably, we can say that what I put in bold in the link, is due to outdated information. Or we can say charitably that the link is outdated because the above quoted section did not properly delve into the polygenism (population) section of Humani Generis. Encyclical, Pope Pius XII, 1950.
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
“37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.”

In other words, because one of my favorite Scripture males, the sun-tanned muscular handsome expert in the science of agriculture, is mentioned in the above section 37, we need to update some of the information in the link. Note: Adam is on my favorite list because he is the first male to be in the image of God. If he did not have a rational spiritual soul, how could we descendants be able to use a smart phone.;)😉

Regardless of what Adam did – and if I meet him, I will slap him upside the head – God considered the human species as peerless; thus, we were given the marvelous beyond human speech, Genesis 1:27. Because Adam is real, we can have joy eternal following bodily death.
 
… we can say charitably that the link is outdated because the above quoted section did not properly delve into the polygenism (population) section of Humani Generis. Encyclical, Pope Pius XII, 1950.
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
True. In Jimmy Akin’s defense, despite him not delving into the monogenism/polygenism section of the encyclical in that magazine article, I recall reading Akin defending Adam and Eve as a real couple - I just can’t recall where I saw Akin doing that.

Certainly that Catholic teaching is defended in all of the articles I’ve seen in Catholic Magazine, for example:

Before Sin by Melinda Selmys

Genesis by Antonio Fuentes

Adam, Eve, and Evolution (a tract from 2004 that received Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur)
 
True. In Jimmy Akin’s defense, despite him not delving into the monogenism/polygenism section of the encyclical in that magazine article, I recall reading Akin defending Adam and Eve as a real couple - I just can’t recall where I saw Akin doing that.

Certainly that Catholic teaching is defended in all of the articles I’ve seen in Catholic Magazine, for example:

Before Sin by Melinda Selmys

Genesis by Antonio Fuentes

Adam, Eve, and Evolution (a tract from 2004 that received Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur)
Yes, everyone defends the reality of Adam and Eve.

The difficulty is that not everyone has a full understanding of what happens when “evolution” intersects with a basic Catholic doctrine such as we are descendants from a population of two.

In science --I can never remember the exact wording – populations evolve from populations. Consider the Homo/Pan split aka a speciation event which led to the hominin branch ending in us, humans. According to the basic evolution model, we are descended from indiscriminate, random breeding, humanizing populations of thousands, over time.

The romantic Eve and Adam have never been considered as part of the evolution model.

Because of the exciting discoveries of paleoanthropologists, it is easy to see why evolution of decomposing anatomies is center stage. There is nothing unusual here. The evolution model was working perfectly. It is understandable that many persons considered that a cladogram explained the present human being. Interesting information can be found in this link evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0_0/evo_07

The romantic Eve and Adam are not part of the evolution model.

Apparently the prevailing theory was that the evolution model could be applied to the human person. Also, there were some Catholics who objected. I have not researched the beginning of objections because I consider the work of the brilliant Pope Pius XII (Humani Generis) as clearly opposed to the process of evolution.

As I said above: “The difficulty is that not everyone has a full understanding of what happens when “evolution” intersects with a basic Catholic doctrine such as we are descendants from a population of two.” This is probably why someone slips.

Humani Generis
It remains for Us now to speak about those questions which, although they pertain to the positive sciences, are nevertheless more or less connected with the truths of the Christian faith. In fact, not a few insistently demand that the Catholic religion take these sciences into account as much as possible. This certainly would be praiseworthy in the case of clearly proved facts; but caution must be used when there is rather question of hypotheses, having some sort of scientific foundation, in which the doctrine contained in Sacred Scripture or in Tradition is involved. If such conjectural opinions are directly or indirectly opposed to the doctrine revealed by God, then the demand that they be recognized can in no way be admitted.
For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.[11] Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question.
When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]
 
Yes, everyone defends the reality of Adam and Eve.

The difficulty is that not everyone has a full understanding of what happens when “evolution” intersects with a basic Catholic doctrine such as we are descendants from a population of two.

In science --I can never remember the exact wording – populations evolve from populations. Consider the Homo/Pan split aka a speciation event which led to the hominin branch ending in us, humans. According to the basic evolution model, we are descended from indiscriminate, random breeding, humanizing populations of thousands, over time.

The romantic Eve and Adam have never been considered as part of the evolution model.

Because of the exciting discoveries of paleoanthropologists, it is easy to see why evolution of decomposing anatomies is center stage. There is nothing unusual here. The evolution model was working perfectly. It is understandable that many persons considered that a cladogram explained the present human being. Interesting information can be found in this link evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0_0/evo_07

The romantic Eve and Adam are not part of the evolution model.

Apparently the prevailing theory was that the evolution model could be applied to the human person. Also, there were some Catholics who objected. I have not researched the beginning of objections because I consider the work of the brilliant Pope Pius XII (Humani Generis) as clearly opposed to the process of evolution.

As I said above: “The difficulty is that not everyone has a full understanding of what happens when “evolution” intersects with a basic Catholic doctrine such as we are descendants from a population of two.” This is probably why someone slips.
Thank you, grannymh. A very important and meaty post of yours indeed. In it you write:

“The difficulty is that not everyone has a full understanding of what happens when ‘evolution’ intersects with a basic Catholic doctrine such as we are descendants from a population of two.”

You then helpfully provide the relevant portions of the important encyclical.

As far as I can tell, the Catholic Answers Magazine articles I cited all recognize the following from the encyclical::

“For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.”

“For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.”

Indeed, all the Catholic Answers articles I’ve seen insist that evolution:
  • is limited to “the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter”
    (not the human soul, which is “immediately created by God”)
  • cannot question the real existence of a single couple, Adam and Eve, from whom all true humans descend. (Therefore, whatever creatures came before, during, or after Adam and Eve - and might be involved somehow in the way God chose to create the human body - such creatures cannot be “true men” unless they “take their origin through natural generation” from Adam and Eve. They might be hominids or whatever, but not true humans.)
I cannot help but notice that your wording includes an insistence that “we are descendants from a population of two.”

This insistence, taken (I assume) to mean that Adam and Eve cannot have been selected from a larger (than two individuals) biological population, is what I do not find consistently reflected in Catholic documents.

Regardless, given that you (and certainly some other Catholics) see this as an unavoidable corollary to true Catholic doctrine, then I certainly understand your dissatisfaction with anything from Catholic Answers, the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the International Theological Commission, or anything else that claims it’s possible to distinguish between biological and theological monogenism.
 
A quick clarification about a couple of internet points.

If Saint Pope John Paul II basically stated that Catholics are welcome to accept the Theory of Evolution if they wish to, he would have added certain qualifications. Leaving out those qualifications is a serious offense against truth.

Another internet misunderstanding is that Catholics do not follow a completely literal Bible interpretation and as a result of this, the Theory of Evolution does not need to conflict with Catholic beliefs. Obviously, the Science of Human Evolution is limited to the first three historical chapters of Genesis. And because these amazing chapters define the origin of human nature, there is a direct conflict with Catholic teachings.
 
… I certainly understand your dissatisfaction with anything from … the International Theological Commission, or anything else that claims it’s possible to distinguish between biological and theological monogenism.
To save time, I’ll note that grannymh has articulated the value of the International Theological Commission’s relevant document “Communion and Stewardship”:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7874021&postcount=120

but (more importantly) also the distinction between the status of the International Theological Commission’s documents and more important official documents when it comes to defining doctrine. For example, see:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12540595&postcount=126

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6630672&postcount=465

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11755980&postcount=65

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12586635&postcount=883

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12773103&postcount=21

This last one concludes with grannymh’s comment:
“By the way, in the Catholic Church, both individual popes and commission reports do not have the authority to change Catholic doctrines duly defined and properly declared at major Catholic Church Councils which are guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Chapter14, Gospel of John.”

A very clearly stated, internally consistent position indeed.
 
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