Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin?

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Originally Posted by grannymh
This reference of the Creator’s “place” appears to be unique because it seems to imply a relationship rather than a physical temple.
Luke 17:21

20 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21 Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.

I’m more familiar with “the kingdom of God is within you” but it all means the same thing.

Jesus could have said that the kingdom was some place off, where it’ll be like it was before Adam and Eve sinned, but he explains it as the Kingdom is within, not without.
 
Luke 17:21

20 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21 Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.

I’m more familiar with “the kingdom of God is within you” but it all means the same thing.

Jesus could have said that the kingdom was some place off, where it’ll be like it was before Adam and Eve sinned, but he explains it as the Kingdom is within, not without.
I hope you continue with “kingdom of God” thoughts. Thank you.

Our good friend author of the first three chapters of Genesis concluded with hope and faith in God’s salvation plan for we humans. (Genesis 3: 15; CCC 388; CCC 410-411; CCC 430-432) We have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Praise God!

There are many thoughts to explore when we consider both the Garden of Eden and the Kingdom of God. It is a good thing that we have Catholic Church teachings to help sort out our thoughts and perhaps our expectations. We can continue Genesis 2: 15-17 in our own lives. As CCC 410 says: “After his fall, man was not abandoned by God.”
 
I hope you continue with “kingdom of God” thoughts. Thank you.

Our good friend author of the first three chapters of Genesis concluded with hope and faith in God’s salvation plan for we humans. (Genesis 3: 15; CCC 388; CCC 410-411; CCC 430-432) We have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Praise God!

There are many thoughts to explore when we consider both the Garden of Eden and the Kingdom of God. It is a good thing that we have Catholic Church teachings to help sort out our thoughts and perhaps our expectations. We can continue Genesis 2: 15-17 in our own lives. As CCC 410 says: “After his fall, man was not abandoned by God.”
We don’t really have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, even the church speaks of the ‘mystery’ that we don’t know everything 100%.
It is faith that holds us together, or sometimes tears us a part.

I have some thoughts that are really questions to ponder on the kingdom of God within us.
 
We don’t really have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, even the church speaks of the ‘mystery’ that we don’t know everything 100%.
It is faith that holds us together, or sometimes tears us a part.

I have some thoughts that are really questions to ponder on the kingdom of God within us.
I tried Google for Kingdom of God. :eek:
This link looked interesting until I discovered the number of citations.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/index/k.htm

I think there may be a difference between “with you” or “among you” and “within us.” Sill ,when we are in the State of Sanctifying Grace, sharing in God’s life, I would think it proper to say that the kingdom of God is within us. We may not be physically present in a physical material world kingdom; yet, we are in God’s spiritual, the more important place, world.

When I look at the second chapter of Genesis, I can imagine that the kingdom of God would have been Adam’s if he had obeyed Genesis 2: 15-17.

I believe that there are two basic truths with the kingdom of God. 1. God as Creator exists, and 2. and we can exist in the kingdom of God because of Genesis 1: 27.

May we have your questions to ponder together.
 
I tried Google for Kingdom of God. :eek:
This link looked interesting until I discovered the number of citations.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/index/k.htm

I think there may be a difference between “with you” or “among you” and “within us.” Sill ,when we are in the State of Sanctifying Grace, sharing in God’s life, I would think it proper to say that the kingdom of God is within us. We may not be physically present in a physical material world kingdom; yet, we are in God’s spiritual, the more important place, world.

When I look at the second chapter of Genesis, I can imagine that the kingdom of God would have been Adam’s if he had obeyed Genesis 2: 15-17.

I believe that there are two basic truths with the kingdom of God. 1. God as Creator exists, and 2. and we can exist in the kingdom of God because of Genesis 1: 27.

May we have your questions to ponder together.
I know what you mean about the citations, I tried the CCC, but was unsuccessful in finding where it explains what Jesus meant about the Kingdom within. I may just not be reading it correctly.
I did come across this as an example :

catholic.org/homily/yearoffaith/story.php?id=53255

Here is alittle from it :
In Jesus Christ, the Kingdom has been inaugurated. Upon his return it will be made complete and fully manifested in a new heaven and a new earth. We are members of the Body of Christ which makes it present here and now - as seed and sign for a world which is in labor. We are kingdom seed, held in His Blood stained Hands, being spread into the world He still loves. That world which was created through Him is now being re-created through Him. We are living seeds of the Kingdom of God in the garden of the world and we are called to bear the fruits of the Kingdom.
The first two verses are where I draw our attention: Asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, Jesus said in reply, "The coming of the Kingdom of God cannot be observed, and no one will announce, ‘Look, here it is,’ or, ‘There it is.’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is among you.
So to me this is Jesus saying that the Kingdom is now, on earth, as we live. Though we die, we are eternal in spirit, and we will ‘travel on’ to the eternal Kingdom. (Heaven)

I did ponder on the meaning of inheriting the Kingdom of God, because as humans we are supposed to be fully alive in the world by being involved in everything/or most all situations in life, yet at the same time be unattached to worldly things.

Thinking of a Kingdom, one might think of a throne, power, material things, owning all this… But it’s a spiritual Kingdom we have to think of,because then we might be able to not become consumed by owning things in this earthly life, that will no longer exist in the eternal life…(just my ponders)

What does anyone else think about the meaning of the Kingdom within?
 
So to me this is Jesus saying that the Kingdom is now, on earth, as we live. Though we die, we are eternal in spirit, and we will ‘travel on’ to the eternal Kingdom. (Heaven)

I did ponder on the meaning of inheriting the Kingdom of God, because as humans we are supposed to be fully alive in the world by being involved in everything/or most all situations in life, yet at the same time be unattached to worldly things.

Thinking of a Kingdom, one might think of a throne, power, material things, owning all this… But it’s a spiritual Kingdom we have to think of,because then we might be able to not become consumed by owning things in this earthly life, that will no longer exist in the eternal life…(just my ponders)

What does anyone else think about the meaning of the Kingdom within?
Two thoughts to ponder.
  1. Is Genesis 1: 1-25 the original Kingdom of God?
  2. Does Genesis 1: 26-28 describe the original us?
I wonder about the two above questions because by the time the first three chapters of Genesis were being written, the Hebrew Nation had plenty of experience with kings and kingdoms.

Of course, there is a wide variety of “Kingdom of God” explanations to ponder. I am thinking that since the first three chapters of Genesis concentrate on the dawn of human history, I would like to know what we can find there which would give us some clues about the Kingdom of God within us. Because Adam is in the image of God, he could share in God’s life. Because Adam was in the original State of Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace, God was “working” in Adam. (CCC1999-2000 and Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)
 
So to me this is Jesus saying that the Kingdom is now, on earth, as we live. Though we die, we are eternal in spirit, and we will ‘travel on’ to the eternal Kingdom. (Heaven)

I did ponder on the meaning of inheriting the Kingdom of God, because as humans we are supposed to be fully alive in the world by being involved in everything/or most all situations in life, yet at the same time be unattached to worldly things.

Thinking of a Kingdom, one might think of a throne, power, material things, owning all this… But it’s a spiritual Kingdom we have to think of,because then we might be able to not become consumed by owning things in this earthly life, that will no longer exist in the eternal life…(just my ponders)

What does anyone else think about the meaning of the Kingdom within?
All of the above has truth, especially the truth that the Kingdom of God is spiritual. The reason we can recognize that this Kingdom is spiritual is because we have a spiritual rational soul. We can learn about this Kingdom through the many references in the New Testament. Or we can look at the universe and recognize its creation by a Being totally powerful without material restrictions. We do not have to know all the scientific aspects about the material world described in the first section of the first chapter in Genesis. The fact that a Divine Creator exists is the essential truth.

Here is the part of post 261 where Simpleas gives the essential thought.
“So to me this is Jesus saying that the Kingdom is now, on earth, as we live. Though we die, we are eternal in spirit, and we will ‘travel on’ to the eternal Kingdom. (Heaven)”

I am sure it is noticeable that I keep going back to Genesis 1: 27. The author did not know about Jesus and the Incarnation. Still, he trusted in the fact that humans are in the image of God. The existence of a singular person Adam at the beginning of the human species guarantees that all humans are in the image of God, that is, all humans have a rational spiritual soul which, as Simpleas says, is eternal. We can conclude that the Kingdom of an eternal King will also exist as we ‘travel on’ to Heaven.

There is more in post 261 to ponder such as the “meaning of inheriting the Kingdom of God.” And becoming consumed by “owning things in the earthly life,”
 
Two thoughts to ponder.
  1. Is Genesis 1: 1-25 the original Kingdom of God?
  2. Does Genesis 1: 26-28 describe the original us?
I wonder about the two above questions because by the time the first three chapters of Genesis were being written, the Hebrew Nation had plenty of experience with kings and kingdoms.

Of course, there is a wide variety of “Kingdom of God” explanations to ponder. I am thinking that since the first three chapters of Genesis concentrate on the dawn of human history, I would like to know what we can find there which would give us some clues about the Kingdom of God within us. Because Adam is in the image of God, he could share in God’s life. Because Adam was in the original State of Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace, God was “working” in Adam. (CCC1999-2000 and Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)
Yeah, the writer doesn’t describe gen 1 1-25 as a kingdom, the description is of God creating the heavens and earth, animals,vegetation and people.There is no mention of anyone sitting on thrones and owning anything.

I don’t know about your first thought, but the second, I think does describe the original us.

There definitely are various explanations to ponder about the kingdom of God.

The working in Adam bit you mention above I’m pondering, because it seems at the beginning all was well, in that, Adam and Eve were at one with God, which must incorporate many things that we as humans today have much disconnection from. Yet God working in Adam/Eve was not enough at that time for them to seek more with God.
 
“I believe in …the resurrection of the body…”
The kingdom is not a purely spiritual kingdom.
 
“I believe in …the resurrection of the body…”
The kingdom is not a purely spiritual kingdom.
This is going further “down the line” into the physical death and resurrection of the body, and I can only imagine this as very similar to the first creation of the world and humans etc like the garden of edan. We are told we will have a glorified body and be one in Christ. I can not imagine what that may be like.

But this is an event that will take place after death, the Kingdom needs to be here and now, I think, in the spirit of our lives, while we live.

Thanks for posting, if you can say more on your comment that will be great 👍
 
Thinking of a Kingdom, one might think of a throne, power, material things, owning all this… But it’s a spiritual Kingdom …
I have come back to this post because the key truth is that the Kingdom of God is spiritual because God the Creator is a Pure Spirit without restrictions. What is amazing to me is that God created us as material beings in a material world and at the same time created us as a spiritual being because, being in God’s image, we can share in God’s life. We can be part of God’s Kingdom.

This link has all kinds of information about the Kingdom of God.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/index/k.htm

Personally, like Simpleas, I ponder about God’s Kingdom within us. This is possible because God created us with a spiritual soul. I want God’s life to stay with me, that is, I want to be in the State of Sanctifying Grace – which basically means we are sharing in God’s life. Sanctifying Grace is “a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of Sanctifying us …” (CCC 1266; CCC 1999-2000; CCC 2023-2024; CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

I doubt if the author of the first three chapters of Genesis knew the words State of Sanctifying Grace. He did know that there was plenty of interaction between God and Adam. We often refer to this interaction as the original friendship relationship between Adam (humanity) and God (Divinity).

Genesis 2: 15-17 is God instructing Adam as to how he can remain in God’s friendship – how to remain in God’s Kingdom. These verses present a free choice.

I often wish I knew more about the State of Sanctifying Grace. Still, knowing that having God’s life within us is the entry way to the Beatific Vision in heaven is what helps us live within God’s laws, like Adam needed to do.
 
I think we are already part of God’s Kingdom, we just have to find it.
 
I think we are already part of God’s Kingdom, we just have to find it.
I appreciate this answer because it implies all kinds of understandings of the Kingdom of God. This is good.

Personally, I think it is possible to ponder if the Garden of Eden was the Kingdom of God. However, the Kingdom of God on earth should be leading everyone to the Kingdom of God in the presence of the Beatific Vision. Maybe Adam’s sin should remind us that we cannot take the Kingdom of God for granted. Maybe that snake is still around. :eek:
 
It appears from the discussions that yes, Genesis 2: 15-17 is an explanation of Original Sin.

Thank you.
 
It appears from the discussions that yes, Genesis 2: 15-17 is an explanation of Original Sin.

Thank you.
I am wondering if Genesis 2:15-17 leads to other “explanations” flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis. Original Sin is a popular subject pro and con. I am sure there will never be total agreement as to the nitty-gritty of circumstances. Still, there are Catholic teachings as backup.:onpatrol:

Here are three truths which can be found in Genesis 2:15-17. Note: truths 2. and 3. are based on the obvious truth that Adam had descendants with each being a great individual person. Like us! The human person is worthy of profound respect. 👍

Three Axioms
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
  3. Every individual human has the inherent capacity to interact with God as Creator.
As I mentioned in the opening post…

“I wonder if all the misunderstandings of Original Sin occur because some people no longer consider the first three chapters of Genesis as being important in modern life.”
 
Am I the only one who has seen a change in attitude toward the first three chapters of Genesis? A change which would ultimately damage the reality of Original Sin.

While genre in itself is neutral, off CAF I am seeing it coupled with surrounding pagan cultures as if these cultures are responsible for the first three chapters in Genesis. Am I the only one who recognizes that Adam and his immediate family existed before large populations came into existence?

What happens to Original Sin when it is part of a legend? What happens to Original Sin when Catholics consider Genesis 2: 15-17 as figurative language? What is the reason to conclude that God extrapolated a figurative mistake (because everyone needs knowledge) into something evil for the world population? Is the existence of God believable when He is considered part of an allegory?

What happens when Catholics lose the ability to discern Divine Revelation beneath figurative language?

Am I the only one who sees danger when the attitude toward Sacred Scripture, especially the first three chapters of Genesis, has changed to observing God’s actions from the image (or view) of man ???
 
It has been a month since a CAF member replied to this thread especially posts 271-272

I truly hope that some day in the future, a Catholic will figure out that the reality of Adam and the reality of his original friendship relationship with the Divine Creator (Genesis 2: 15-17) has slipped into oblivion.

My last thought is to remind Catholics that the CCC 389 can be viewed as a prediction/warning of today’s stealth Arianism which appears as Sunday empty pews which is only one of many avenues which include the idea that Jesus was such a persuasive preacher that the hungry crowd (John 6: 1 and following) naturally shared their food with others which means that Jesus did not have to be divine and able to produce a miracle which leads to the idea of symbolism which is often said about the Catholic Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist which symbolism dismisses the major truth of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ so that Sunday empty pews are optional.
**CCC 389 **The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Blessings,
granny
 
This was in the news today: Almost all living people outside Africa trace back single migration over 50,000 years ago

I thought you’d be interested in that, granny 🙂

Seems that science is finding more evidence for the Eden in Africa hypothesis. A single origin and major outward migration.

As for original populations, I find some variation on a theological monogenesis hypothesis (best article I’ve seen covering several possibilities here) most convincing. That’s probably a topic better for a different thread.

Original Sin is the most essential truth here, though it could possibly be more corporate in nature (as the OT dwells quite a bit on corporate sin–the whole group bearing guilt and responsibility, not just individual guilt, and even though some individuals may not be very culpable).

As for the scientific observational data, correlated with Biblical and philosophical data and suggestions, it seems to me that God “formed” man out of the “dust/clay of the earth” through micro-evolutionary processes, evident in the hominin and hominid prior forms, and then breathed a rational soul in the image and likeness of God into a singular Adam selected from this process. This happened somewhere in (central?) Africa (“the Garden of Eden”) some time between 50kya and 70kya. From Adam and Eve, after the Fall, spread the human population through (as the above article suggests) possible allowed interbreeding with other biologically-similar populations, which may also explain “children of men” references, the possibly-implied populations of people beyond Adam and Eve’s own children who interbred (including those of Cain, as he went among other populations). Following the descendants of Adam would come the rational soul – the “theological” or “intellectual” monogenesis suggested above.

Thus, “Out of Africa” (or “Out of Eden,” if you like) spread of modern humans, which completely eventually completely overtakes all prior “hominids” (explaining their disappearance, while also explaining genetic artifacts remaining in modern humans of races like the Neanderthals).

Adam, then, most likely lived 50-70kya. His descendants spread and “conquered the world,” reaching everywhere we find evidence of continuous human population to today, including aboriginal Australia (~50kya) and Papau New Guinea and such isolated places.

They bore with them the traits of Adam and Eve’s Fall, from their Original Sin, as they passed on only what they had, and could not transmit to future generations what they lacked (the state of Original Justice).

IMO, this seems to harmonize all the evidence, scientific, Biblical, logical, philosophical, Church teaching, etc. The convergence of evidence illustrating a clearer picture of what actually happened in history, in harmony with what we know by faith and revelation.
 
If you think it walks too close to the public forum ban, I’m open to Private Message conversations.

You mentioned, "Am I the only one who recognizes that Adam and his immediate family existed before large populations came into existence? "

And you noted a bit the consequent impacts of ideas on descent to modern thinking with regard to Original Sin. So I thought this relevant.
 
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