Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin?

[Richca]

But they came with it, and that’s why it can not be the same.

And yes Adam lost these gifts because he did not remain in divine intimacy.

It is not the same as regards the preternatural gifts but it is the same as regards the supernatural gifts of sanctifying grace, the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to a more or less degree. One need not have the gifts of bodily immortality, freedom from suffering or concupiscience to have an intimate personal and supernatural relationship with God through the supernatural gifts of sanctifying grace, the theological virtues, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit which the lives of the saints and the establishment of the Church and the sacraments by Christ demonstrate. The chief gift bestowed on Adam and Eve was sanctifying grace which makes us partakers in the divine nature and the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit which follow sanctifying grace. There are also degrees of charity, faith and hope as well as sanctifying grace; these ought to increase in us daily. In the tradition of the Church, the masters of the spiritual life distinguish three stages of the spiritual life, namely, the purgative (beginners), the illuminative (or proficients), and the unitive. Some of these masters such as St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross had mystical experiences of God which may have equaled or possibly surpassed the communion with God Adam and Eve had in the garden of Eden when they came forth from the hand of God. God established Adam and Eve in his friendship in the garden of paradise through the supernatural gifts as well as the preternatural gifts but it is the supernatural gifts such as sanctifying grace, the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit which elevate us to a participation in the divine nature and a supernatural communion and union with God. These are the same gifts we receive in baptism or confession if we have had the misfortune to lose them by mortal sin. Adam and Eve probably enjoyed a sweet infused contemplation of God as well as of the creation before their fall.

The Blessed Virgin Mary who came long after Adam and Eve was united to God on earth in a far higher degree than Adam and Eve before their fall or any other human that was or will be. We can study and meditate on the life of Mary and the virtues she practiced if we want to get an idea of christian perfection and the following of Christ which perfection and holiness Mary possessed far surpassed the perfection of Adam and Eve in the garden of paradise. Or we could meditate on the life of St Joseph or of course the life of Christ in the gospels. We don’t seem to have to much of a problem relating ourselves to the lives of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus as recorded for us in the gospels yet their holiness and union with God surpassed that of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

So, what was the relationship and communion or the spiritual life of Adam and Eve with God before their fall? Well, if we meditate on the lives of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus in the gospels we may get some idea though it wouldn’t be as perfect.

 

[grannymh]

E is for Eve

Unnecessary confusion about Catholicism ???

Tiny suggestion.
Try recognizing Eve, in the first three chapters of Genesis, as being important in this century.

 

[grannymh]

From Post 312
"The most important focus is that God loves us without limit or condition. This focus is a source of conversion for our hearts and minds. This focus is a source of creating the Kingdom, a world that cares for “the least” of us.
skip
So, as Granny says, we have a God we can know and be in relation with. What can we learn of God in that relationship that trumps all we “know”, which can guide our lives?

Answer: Love "

While readers are searching for Eve, I will add real humans to the above comments.

Absolutely, it is important to know that God loves us without limit or condition. This is evidence of God’s Divinity. Real humans can both love God and reject God. This is evidence of our humanity. We need to first pay attention to the sharp difference between Genesis 1: 25 and the verses which follow, including Genesis 2: 15-17 and Genesis 3: 15.

In the Genesis creation teaching, the difference between beavers and ourselves is evinced in the Catholic truth that we are rooted in the image of God. (CCC 1700) We can initiate and control our own actions. (CCC 1730) We are a spiritual rational being created with free will. (1730, small print. Refer to CCC 20-21) Therefore, we are able to reject God’s love for us.
Post 312 asks:
“So, as Granny says, we have a God we can know and be in relation with. What can we learn of God in that relationship that trumps all we “know”, which can guide our lives?”

We can learn that we are not equal with busy beavers. We have the dignity of the human person who can freely choose to love God or to freely reject God’s love for us.(CCC 355-357; CCC 396-398)

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t know, I haven’t died…yet…

Yes the ‘mystery file’ handy to have when these difficult questions arise.

Hi Simpleas,

We don’t have to die to see God, though, right? We see our Creator through love, in those we love. We see our Creator when we look upon lilies in a crisp morning.

And back to that “mystery file”, as much as I can really connect with so much you say, sometimes you write things that seem contradictory or “unsimpleas-like”. However, I am convinced that all of our individual vocabularies are so different that it is even miraculous that any two can communicate about deeper concepts! Indeed, my own statements to you must probably sometimes seem contradictory or unOnesheepish. (whew, speaking of vocabularies! )

I’m thinking that the “mystery file” is one that we can keep for all our interactions.

Communion is found in Love.

On instagram three days ago:

So that the Gospel may bear fruit in our day too, we are asked to remain more firmly in the Lord and united among ourselves.

Pope Francis

He said this in Georgia, among the Eastern Orthodox. Unison itself bears fruit! And the mystery file in itself is a resource for such unison. Yes, we are creatures who can be very particular about words. When our words do not seem to be in harmony, we can try to work them out, but ultimately what is needed is some more revelation to unfold between us. For example, one sticking point between the East and the West is the infallibility of our Pope. Shall we let such a concept be a roadblock to unity?

Unity is found in Love. Let’s let the future work out the doctrinal details. In the mean time, that “mystery file” has its place, it has its purpose.

Do you agree? If not, perhaps we can make more use of the mystery file!

 

[OneSheep]

Hmmm.

Post 319 says:

In the Genesis creation teaching, the difference between beavers and ourselves is evinced in the Catholic truth that we are rooted in the image of God. (CCC 1700) We can initiate and control our own actions. (CCC 1730) We are a spiritual rational being created with free will. (1730, small print. Refer to CCC 20-21) Therefore, we are able to reject God’s love for us.

Actually, I have had a good deal of interaction with beavers. They are beautiful creatures, and very industrious. One can see that their beauty reflects the image of our own creator. For example, creation is truly violent, and is still occurring. So much has to be torn down as rebuilding takes place; there is disease, volcanic action, flooding.

And we can also relate to the ignorance of beavers. I have seen them, for example, living in some fairly polluted waters. Do they have the freedom to change location? Maybe. Do they know that their decision to reside there is unhealthy? No, they do not. Humans are free to make choices, too, but we never know all of the relevant facts to make completely free choices. We freely choose among severely limited options.

And as far as “small print”:

I do miss interacting with the poster of 319. I love her, I have learned so much from her. I find her “snarkiness” very endearing.

 

[goout]

…
Humans are free to make choices, too, but we never know all of the relevant facts to make completely free choices. We freely choose among severely limited options.

And morality can only deal with what the person has in front of them.
You seem to be claiming that because we are not omniscient we may not be accountable for our actions.

Adam and Eve, along with all the rest of us, have choices to make.
They didn’t have foresight to see all the effects of sin, but God did tell them “you will die”.
So, ?
“You will die” is pretty straightforward language and an adequate basis on which to make an informed decision.
Normally, we do not make bad decisions for lack of good information, we make them because we simply want what we want when we want it, consequences be damned.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by OneSheep

We don’t have to die to see God, though, right? We see our Creator through love, in those we love. We see our Creator when we look upon lilies in a crisp morning.

I think we are speaking about different things, my comment about dying was about knowing if we had reached perfection in the eternal realm, not about connecting with the divine through nature.
When one listens to Catholic teaching, one can’t help but notice that there is belief about a heaven and a hell after this human life, not just the heaven/hell we experience now on earth.

And back to that “mystery file”, as much as I can really connect with so much you say, sometimes you write things that seem contradictory or “unsimpleas-like”. However, I am convinced that all of our individual vocabularies are so different that it is even miraculous that any two can communicate about deeper concepts! Indeed, my own statements to you must probably sometimes seem contradictory or unOnesheepish. (whew, speaking of vocabularies! )

I’m thinking that the “mystery file” is one that we can keep for all our interactions.

Communion is found in Love.

My mystery comment was just short and sweet, as I didn’t want the thread to be derailed as it’s in the scripture forum and based around a particular question.
I still find it a tad difficult to write out what I think, and what I write might not be taken as it would if it was a face to face conversation.
You sound much like you did when we first posted years ago

I wonder if the vault in the vatican has a ‘mystery file’

‘Love one another as I have loved you’

 

[OneSheep]

And morality can only deal with what the person has in front of them.
You seem to be claiming that because we are not omniscient we may not be accountable for our actions.

Hi GO

Well, yes, it might seem that way. However, if we look at the word “accountable”, as in “able to give account”, we hear nothing of Adam’s account for his action after the fact. We don’t really know how proficiently he could be in giving such account, explaining why he did what he did. However, we all know that Adam did defy God’s orders, and we feel compelled to make Adam give account for what he did, correct?

Adam and Eve, along with all the rest of us, have choices to make.
They didn’t have foresight to see all the effects of sin, but God did tell them “you will die”.
So, ?
“You will die” is pretty straightforward language and an adequate basis on which to make an informed decision.
Normally, we do not make bad decisions for lack of good information, we make them because we simply want what we want when we want it, consequences be damned.

Perhaps “You will die” is pretty straightforward, but we don’t know if A&E even knew what “death” was. Also, we all know people who have no qualms about doing some death-defying risky behaviors, but would not for a second think of doing something that might harm their own children. It would be a very rare human, probably one with an empathy disability, that would risk the well-being of his or her own children, correct?

Do you see where that “mystery file” comes in so handy?

Are you thinking that Genesis 2:15-17 explains that God punished Adam for testing those words, and part of that punishment was “original sin”?

 

[grannymh]

Clarification for Our Gentle Readers

In the Catholic Church, the “mystery file” is not one of the Seven Catholic Sacraments.

Some other Catholics may think that the “mystery file” is a Vatican treasure shared by persons who are annoyed by the current Catholic doctrines which flow from special verses. Examples: Genesis 1: 26-27 and Genesis 2: 15-17 and Genesis 3: 15. Or maybe the “mystery file” is a personal treasure shared by friends.

Some other Catholics may think that the “mystery file” is Harry Potter’s invisibility cloak used to hide some other Catholics who are chipping away at the Catholic Church foundation so that a new wonderful Big Tent will emerge, aka known as Progressive Christians, where basic Catholic doctrines are not necessary.

Because this is a free speech public message board, everyone can decide for themselves how they will use the “mystery file.” Obviously, those Catholics who believe in the Catholic Church as it is will follow the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Chapter 14, Gospel of John.

Interesting link. Scroll to list of notable names.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Christianity#Notable_Progressive_Christians

 

[OneSheep]

The link posted in 325 above, though delivered with the utmost sincerity and good will, brings me to recall this important scripture:

1Corinthians
3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

It is in this light that we see the wikipedia link drawing the lines as we “mere humans” do, without recognizing the tasks, the roles played, by all those who are called to plant and nurture seeds. When one says, “I follow Paul” and “I follow Apollos” we exercise our tribal instinct, as humans we draw lines and stand behind them with folded arms.

Paul calls us to something higher!

 

[goout]

Hi GO

Well, yes, it might seem that way. However, if we look at the word “accountable”, as in “able to give account”, we hear nothing of Adam’s account for his action after the fact. We don’t really know how proficiently he could be in giving such account, explaining why he did what he did. However, we all know that Adam did defy God’s orders, and we feel compelled to make Adam give account for what he did, correct?

Perhaps “You will die” is pretty straightforward, but we don’t know if A&E even knew what “death” was. Also, we all know people who have no qualms about doing some death-defying risky behaviors, but would not for a second think of doing something that might harm their own children. It would be a very rare human, probably one with an empathy disability, that would risk the well-being of his or her own children, correct?

Do you see where that “mystery file” comes in so handy?

Are you thinking that Genesis 2:15-17 explains that God punished Adam for testing those words, and part of that punishment was “original sin”?

Ok I give up on the mystery file.
What are you saying?

 

[grannymh]

Ok I give up on the mystery file.
What are you saying?

Truth be told. The “mystery file” belongs to this thread’s Original Sin topic because we began the alphabet approach to decrease Catholics’ unnecessary Original Sin confusion covering A to Z of Catholicism.

I did post that we are now on E is for Eve. post 318
However, since there is so much mystery in Eve’s “mystery file”, I decided to pause to give posters time to open that file.

The Original Sin mystery alphabet begins in post 307.

 

[grannymh]

From post 324

Hi GO

Well, yes, it might seem that way. However, if we look at the word “accountable”, as in “able to give account”, we hear nothing of Adam’s account for his action after the fact. We don’t really know how proficiently he could be in giving such account, explaining why he did what he did. However, we all know that Adam did defy God’s orders, and we feel compelled to make Adam give account for what he did, correct?

Adam did give an account for his action after the fact.

Genesis, chapter 3
11
Then God asked: Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat?

12
The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me—she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.”

 

[OneSheep]

Ok I give up on the mystery file.
What are you saying?

Hi, sorry for any confusion:

Some classics:

Q: Why does God let bad things happen?
A: Mystery

Q: Why would God impose a taking away of grace from Adam’s progeny, who had no choice in the matter (Simpleas’ question)?
A: Mystery

Q: Why would God forgive those who hung His son on the cross, but not forgive Adam?
Q: Given that ignorance is such a huge problem, why are people born ignorant?
Q: Why did God in the story of A&E not wait with open arms (prodigal son’s father) rather than send them away in shame?

Applicable to my last post to you:
Q: Why would God create a being knowing full well that he would defy Him, and then punish him for doing exactly that (wouldn’t it have been easier, and cause less grief, to just create A&E without grace in the first place?)

And of course, like Granny says, some people file more, or less questions under “mystery”. The file itself is okay, it gives the humble Christian an out. Nobody has all the answers.

(except me, of course. )

 

[simpleas]

From post 324

Hi GO

Well, yes, it might seem that way. However, if we look at the word “accountable”, as in “able to give account”, we hear nothing of Adam’s account for his action after the fact. We don’t really know how proficiently he could be in giving such account, explaining why he did what he did. However, we all know that Adam did defy God’s orders, and we feel compelled to make Adam give account for what he did, correct?

Adam did give an account for his action after the fact.

Genesis, chapter 3
11
Then God asked: Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat?

12
The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me—she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.”

I think that was more like passing the blame than an account of his reason why. Granted he told the truth as did Eve, they didn’t try to cover it up, they hid, when God called to them they responded, but God still punished them.

Seems it’s something we all have to learn, that actions lead to consequences.

 

[simpleas]

Hi, sorry for any confusion:

Some classics:

Q: Why does God let bad things happen?
A: Mystery

Q: Why would God impose a taking away of grace from Adam’s progeny, who had no choice in the matter (Simpleas’ question)?
A: Mystery

Q: Why would God forgive those who hung His son on the cross, but not forgive Adam?
Q: Given that ignorance is such a huge problem, why are people born ignorant?
Q: Why did God in the story of A&E not wait with open arms (prodigal son’s father) rather than send them away in shame?

Applicable to my last post to you:
Q: Why would God create a being knowing full well that he would defy Him, and then punish him for doing exactly that (wouldn’t it have been easier, and cause less grief, to just create A&E without grace in the first place?)

And of course, like Granny says, some people file more, or less questions under “mystery”. The file itself is okay, it gives the humble Christian an out. Nobody has all the answers.

(except me, of course. )

Second question, pretty much what I do think about, the whole soul matter is a thorn in my side…

I’ve just read the secret book of John, I find it amazing what people wrote about, how they believed creation, God and the fall of humans happened.

 

[grannymh]

Q: Why does God let bad things happen?
A: Mystery

Some, not all, Catholics who have a hard time accepting the reality of human nature as created by God could, understandably, choose to call it a mystery.

Q: Why would God impose a taking away of grace from Adam’s progeny, who had no choice in the matter (Simpleas’ question)?
A: Mystery

This indeed could be a very troublesome mystery especially when some, not all, Catholics, unfortunately sidestep the reality of two sole founders of humankind and also sidestep the Spiritual Soul which separated the Original Adam from Genesis chapter 1: 2-25. (Clarification: Genesis 1:1 is the existence of the Creator God.)

Q: Why would God forgive those who hung His son on the cross, but not forgive Adam?

Who really knows the entire infinite mind of God? I don’t.

Q: Given that ignorance is such a huge problem, why are people born ignorant?

Because the physical brain is needed to verbally express what the mind is contemplating, there could be a genetic problem.

Q: Why did God in the story of A&E not wait with open arms (prodigal son’s father) rather than send them away in shame?

Because the Prodigal Son is not the original first human on planet earth.

Q: Why would God create a being knowing full well that he would defy Him, and then punish him for doing exactly that (wouldn’t it have been easier, and cause less grief, to just create A&E without grace in the first place?)

The simple answer involves actually reading Genesis 1: 26-27. Some, not all, Catholics may be interested in this Catholic teaching.

**CCC 1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts. (small print. Refer to CCC 20-21)

 

[goout]

Some, not all, Catholics who have a hard time accepting the reality of human nature as created by God could, understandably, choose to call it a mystery.

It is a mystery.
We shouldn’t fall in to the trap of the rationalist sense of mystery.
The rationalist sense of mystery defines it as ignorant, arbitrary, and unapproachable, and therefore completely unknowable and not worth of consideration.

That is not a Christian sense of mystery.

 

[goout]

wordonfire.org/resources/video/reflections-on-original-sin/305/

 

[OneSheep]

Ahem. Note: originator of quotes noted here, from due respect.

Some, not all, Catholics who have a hard time accepting the reality of human nature as created by God could, understandably, choose to call it a mystery.

I should have clarified that one. Bad things: Hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, etc.

This indeed could be a very troublesome mystery especially when some, not all, Catholics, unfortunately sidestep the reality of two sole founders of humankind and also sidestep the Spiritual Soul which separated the Original Adam from Genesis chapter 1: 2-25. (Clarification: Genesis 1:1 is the existence of the Creator God.)

It’s still a mystery. Benevolent people do not punish children for their parents errors. We are created in His image, so God must be at least as benevolent as the loving people we know on Earth. If that isn’t enough, our omnipotent God could easily recreate people every generation if He so chooses. If you explain one mystery of this, 4 new ones pop up!

Of course, one could argue that there never was a punishment at all, and that “original sin” is more of an explanation of genetic inheritance for capacity to do evil (all of us are capable) and that we all have an original ignorance (after all, ignorance is a constant factor in all sin), but then then a new question arises. If the statements in this paragraph are actually true, then why does our literal Genesis story indicate differently? So once again, that “mystery file” comes in mighty handy.

Who really knows the entire infinite mind of God? I don’t.

Woop! Caught you using the file!

Because the physical brain is needed to verbally express what the mind is contemplating, there could be a genetic problem.

You only shifted the mystery a tad. The mystery was “why are people born ignorant?”. Now the mystery is “Why did our our-powerful God create people with a genetic problem of expressing what the mind contemplates?”.

Another approach might be to suggest that God is still creating us, and that wisdom itself is part of creation. In this scenario, God working through us, imparting wisdom on youth, is participation in creation itself. Then we have a new mystery: why is this process so blasted slow?

Because the Prodigal Son is not the original first human on planet earth.

New mystery: Why would God more favor a defiant prodigal son than a defiant Adam?

The simple answer involves actually reading Genesis 1: 26-27. Some, not all, Catholics may be interested in this Catholic teaching.

**CCC 1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts. (small print. Refer to CCC 20-21)
​

New wording of the mystery: "Why would God will that “man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” when He already knew that man would defy Him and he could have just created him without preternature and grace in the first place with less grief?

Another option is to look at the story as one where the main purpose is to present human suffering as ultimately our fault (not God’s fault, which is the default mode when people are suffering and are not embracing the A&E story). It is empowering to know that God is our strength, and would never turn from us or give us grief unless it is our fault. In this option, our loving God gives us this story to empower us, but in reality suffering itself is part of the sometimes violent act of creation that He initiated; we are meant to learn from our mistakes as we suffer them. This leads to different mysteries, though, more existential ones, like “why am I suffering now?” or “what could I possibly learn from this suffering?”. This mystery also incorporates the first of this post: “Why does creation have to be violent?”

Indeed, our faith is one where it behooves us to know our benevolent God from the Love we know from within ourselves and our neighbors. We do look upon much of the rest with a bit of trepidation, but can find comfort (and faith!) in relationship.

oh cmon granny. You can talk to me, see?. Reconciliation, seeing “eyelash to eyelash” is what God wants. I’ll be charitable and so will you… :]​