Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin?

[grannymh]

Again, no-one is going to change anything, even the preachers of the fly in the ointment, which I do think can be interpreted two ways as I think I have said on this thread before.

One of the major changes which some, not all, Catholics have already adopted is found in post 514, page 35. Post 518, page 35 and following calls this “Breaking News regarding Catholic doctrine.”
“Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit. And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation. People who go to another church just because they disagree are not understanding the meaning of communion, of the centrality of Eucharist. The Church is not just an ideology, a bunch of doctrines. The Church is defined by Eucharist, by relationship, as family, correct? People in a family can disagree on opinions or what they think is important.”

As a start…

"Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit."
is a feel good sentence to put everyone at ease.

"And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation."
refers to the current big change in Catholicism which is unfortunately being accepted by a variety of listeners.

 

[Doug_Kraeger]

@grannymh: I have a question: Is the following something all Catholics can (and should) conclude with a certitude of faith because it must follow from what the Church teaches authoritatively? Since we believe that Jesus Christ is True God and True man, and as God, the creator of all space and time, He can have only one, single, infinite, indivisible, always in the present tense thought in which He thinks about all that God IS, all that God (and everything in creation) wills and does in time, all at once in the present tense, therefore because God (Jesus Christ) once willed to honor St. Joseph as the head of the Family, God therefore is eternally willing to honor St. Joseph in such a way throughout all space and time, and we should also.
thank you.

 

[grannymh]

@grannymh: I have a question: Is the following something all Catholics can (and should) conclude with a certitude of faith because it must follow from what the Church teaches authoritatively? Since we believe that Jesus Christ is True God and True man, and as God, the creator of all space and time, He can have only one, single, infinite, indivisible, always in the present tense thought in which He thinks about all that God IS, all that God (and everything in creation) wills and does in time, all at once in the present tense, therefore because God (Jesus Christ) once willed to honor St. Joseph as the head of the Family, God therefore is eternally willing to honor St. Joseph in such a way throughout all space and time, and we should also.
thank you.

Thank you for your good question. Please note that my philosophy background is limited so when I goof, please let me know. I finally stopped posting in the Philosophy Forum.

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is True God and True Man. This logical truth follows from the study of the first three historical chapters at the beginning of Sacred Scripture. From those real events, we see the necessity of a fully-Divine Person Who can repair or reconcile the original shattered friendship relationship between the creature Adam and his Divine Creator.

Building on the above paragraph, we look toward a common description of our almighty God. God is three Persons in one nature. God is the Most Holy Trinity. God remains a Divine Trinity and Adam will always be a human person.

When we shift to the New Testament, we find the perfect relationship repair solution. John 3: 16-17.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”
The practical understanding is that Jesus came to reinstate what Adam lost.

Thus, we arrive at this point in your post.

“Since we believe that Jesus Christ is True God and True man, and as God, the creator of all space and time, He can have only one, single, infinite, indivisible, always in the present tense thought …”

My apology for the truncation; however, it is important to consider a simple comprehension of God and Jesus Christ. God is three Persons in one nature. Jesus Christ is one Person with two natures. Precisely, because Jesus has both the Divine Nature and He has an assumed human nature, He can step into Adam’s sandals at the same time He can repair the divine relationship between Divinity and humanity.

My first thought regarding the point “God as Creator… He can only have one single …” is that Jesus, having assumed the second nature, can act as the Divine Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity and He can act as a true human because He assumed a human soul and will. Both soul and will are subject to His Divine nature. Both natures are in sync because He is one Person. Thus, I would eliminate the reasoning of the present tense, because all the events in the Garden are not solely in the present tense. And the human life of Jesus is not solely in the present tense.

We can say that God is eternally honoring St. Joseph because God is eternally honoring every human because of the truth in Genesis 1: 27 “God created mankind in His image; in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.” This would be my reason for honoring St. Joseph.

God individually honored St. Joseph when He chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus. Sad but true, we can forget the living Joseph who taught and guided the living Jesus. Therefore, the message and purpose of your post is truly wonderful.

I have a couple of other thoughts, but first, I would like to know if I am on track or somewhere in the wild blue yonder.

What I think is happening in your post is that using probable, but not necessary, reasoning could possibly raise problems with the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity having two natures.

 

[grannymh]

Why is Sacred Scripture,
the first three chapters of Genesis,
an important Testament?

Returning to the alphabet, S & T, one of the reasons that Sacred Scripture in the Old Testament is important is because the beginning verses in Genesis, chapter 1, assure us that the Creator God does exist. Not only that, but we are personally special when we take the leap from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26-27.

Adam is the first single created human and each descendant is also a single created person with an unique rational spiritual soul. The Catholic Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God – it is not “produced” by the parents… (CCC 366)

Adam is unique. Eve is unique. I am unique. And the rest of the unique humans are glad that there is only one unique me who challenges readers …

A new year should challenge people to turn over a new leaf. :clapping:

God is so active in the first three historical chapters of Sacred Scripture, my suggestion (better word than challenge) is to walk with God in those fascinating chapters. It could be somewhat like a trivia game which people get for Christmas. How many of you received or gave the Big Bang Theory game? Please, do not answer.

This granny has trouble with rules. Thus, there will be no rules for getting more acquainted with the Creator Who taught the science of agriculture to Adam.
Genesis 2: 15.

---

The human person is worthy of profound Respect.

 

[Doug_Kraeger]

@grannymh: Thank you for your thoughtful response. I would like to agree with and focus on your statement, “God is three Persons in one nature. Jesus Christ is one Person with two natures.” and look at what the Church teaches that might illuminate details of Jesus as HE was.
The Church officially teaches at 314 of the CCC that, “We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”,184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.”
When “partial knowledge ceases” means that we will know everything and we will fully know the ways by which….God has guided His creation to that definitive Sabbath rest” in which “God will be everything to everyone, all in all” (CCC 130, 1 Cor. 15:28).
For mere mortals to “be like God because we see Him as HE infinitely IS” must require a truly infinite amount of help (grace). Do you agree with that?
If God IS the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world, then it follows that He must be the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good parent who wills to share all the good they have received from God with their children and therefore it follows, it must be true, that God wills to share HIMSELF completely with those made in HIS image and likeness, made that way so that God could share HIMSELF with them. Therefore God eternally wills to give all of us the truly infinite graces needed to see HIM AS HE ETERNALLY IS.
The Catholic Church teaches somewhere that Jesus always beheld the beatific vision while living and walking as God made man. Jesus, by His nature as God, has infinite power and perfectly infinite knowledge, although He did not make that visible to us at that time, just as He does not make it visible in the Blessed Sacrament today. It is just a detail of our faith. Therefore we can say with a certitude of faith that Jesus was, as we will be in heaven, perfectly conformed to the changeless, infinite Divine Will, seeing every detail of all time and space all at once and knowing this is the best unrolling of time that God could arrange without violating anyone’s free will that also results in “God reconciling all things” (2 Cor. 5:19).
Jesus was the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good child in honoring their Mother’s Spouse as the head of the family. Jesus and Mary truly honored St. Joseph as the head of the family and this was and therefore eternally is the Divine Will and everyone in heaven, who see all time in its immediacy (CCC 600), see/know how perfectly God (Jesus) honored St. Joseph as His Father and they see that God’s only wills one single, infinite willing of everything in time and space, all at once and therefore those in heaven also will to honor St. Joseph as the head of the family the way Jesus did as an infant and child and as an adult, eternally because all He does, He does eternally in the present tense, all at once.
How could the above statement be in error without requiring that the will of God be transient in time? Therefore, do you agree that we should honor St. Joseph as the head of the Family because Jesus was and is True God and True Man and therefore whatever He willed as a man (or child), He is eternally willing in the present tense in heaven and we will will it IF we get to heaven and God is all in all to us as we see God AS HE infinitely, eternally IS?
Grannymh, you also said in your post, “Thus, I would eliminate the reasoning of the present tense, because all the events in the Garden are not solely in the present tense. And the human life of Jesus is not solely in the present tense.” As Humans, we see time passing, past, present, future. But God sees all time in its immediacy (CCC 600) and those in heaven, whose partial knowledge has ceased, they know fully the entire plan of God, also see all time at once, in the present, then to God and them it is all knowledge, which makes it present tense. Do you agree that the Church encourages us to see things the way God sees them rather than the way the world sees them?
Also, on another point of free will:
Is God infinitely powerful? Is God infinitely powerful enough to create free will such that when each soul is given truly infinite graces, that soul/will/person will be so conformed to the Divine Will of God, that they will perfectly, freely choose to do God’s will even if that will is for them to go to hell for all eternity because they did not repent of sins in “an acceptable time”? Who will say that “God cannot be that infinitely powerful because I can not understand free will as such” except those whose pride gets in the way?
Should we resolutely unite our prayer with the prayer of Jesus (CCC 2741) and thereby receive the Holy Spirit, and pray the Name, “JESUS” which contains all and therefore contains the entire divine will for all space and time, pray for God to give everyone (even those destined by their free will decisions to go to hell in the end) the truly infinite graces needed to perfectly conform their wills to God’s eternal, infinite will, to give those graces to all through St. Joseph as the head of the family who always relied on the help of Mary His spouse who was honored to be His spouse?

 

[grannymh]

@grannymh: Thank you for your thoughtful response. I would like to agree with and focus on your statement, “God is three Persons in one nature. Jesus Christ is one Person with two natures.” and look at what the Church teaches that might illuminate details of Jesus as HE was.
The Church officially teaches at 314 of the CCC that, “We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”,184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.”
When “partial knowledge ceases” means that we will know everything and we will fully know the ways by which….God has guided His creation to that definitive Sabbath rest” in which “God will be everything to everyone, all in all” (CCC 130, 1 Cor. 15:28).
For mere mortals to “be like God because we see Him as HE infinitely IS” must require a truly infinite amount of help (grace). Do you agree with that?
If God IS the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world, then it follows that He must be the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good parent who wills to share all the good they have received from God with their children and therefore it follows, it must be true, that God wills to share HIMSELF completely with those made in HIS image and likeness, made that way so that God could share HIMSELF with them. Therefore God eternally wills to give all of us the truly infinite graces needed to see HIM AS HE ETERNALLY IS.
The Catholic Church teaches somewhere that Jesus always beheld the beatific vision while living and walking as God made man. Jesus, by His nature as God, has infinite power and perfectly infinite knowledge, although He did not make that visible to us at that time, just as He does not make it visible in the Blessed Sacrament today. It is just a detail of our faith. Therefore we can say with a certitude of faith that Jesus was, as we will be in heaven, perfectly conformed to the changeless, infinite Divine Will, seeing every detail of all time and space all at once and knowing this is the best unrolling of time that God could arrange without violating anyone’s free will that also results in “God reconciling all things” (2 Cor. 5:19).
Jesus was the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good child in honoring their Mother’s Spouse as the head of the family. Jesus and Mary truly honored St. Joseph as the head of the family and this was and therefore eternally is the Divine Will and everyone in heaven, who see all time in its immediacy (CCC 600), see/know how perfectly God (Jesus) honored St. Joseph as His Father and they see that God’s only wills one single, infinite willing of everything in time and space, all at once and therefore those in heaven also will to honor St. Joseph as the head of the family the way Jesus did as an infant and child and as an adult, eternally because all He does, He does eternally in the present tense, all at once.
How could the above statement be in error without requiring that the will of God be transient in time? Therefore, do you agree that we should honor St. Joseph as the head of the Family because Jesus was and is True God and True Man and therefore whatever He willed as a man (or child), He is eternally willing in the present tense in heaven and we will will it IF we get to heaven and God is all in all to us as we see God AS HE infinitely, eternally IS?
Grannymh, you also said in your post, “Thus, I would eliminate the reasoning of the present tense, because all the events in the Garden are not solely in the present tense. And the human life of Jesus is not solely in the present tense.” As Humans, we see time passing, past, present, future. But God sees all time in its immediacy (CCC 600) and those in heaven, whose partial knowledge has ceased, they know fully the entire plan of God, also see all time at once, in the present, then to God and them it is all knowledge, which makes it present tense. Do you agree that the Church encourages us to see things the way God sees them rather than the way the world sees them?
Also, on another point of free will:
Is God infinitely powerful? Is God infinitely powerful enough to create free will such that when each soul is given truly infinite graces, that soul/will/person will be so conformed to the Divine Will of God, that they will perfectly, freely choose to do God’s will even if that will is for them to go to hell for all eternity because they did not repent of sins in “an acceptable time”? Who will say that “God cannot be that infinitely powerful because I can not understand free will as such” except those whose pride gets in the way?
Should we resolutely unite our prayer with the prayer of Jesus (CCC 2741) and thereby receive the Holy Spirit, and pray the Name, “JESUS” which contains all and therefore contains the entire divine will for all space and time, pray for God to give everyone (even those destined by their free will decisions to go to hell in the end) the truly infinite graces needed to perfectly conform their wills to God’s eternal, infinite will, to give those graces to all through St. Joseph as the head of the family who always relied on the help of Mary His spouse who was honored to be His spouse?

Due to the limit for characters, my reply is in the next post.

 

[grannymh]

Reply to post 698.

While I need time to read post 698 a few more times … especially the Catechism citations and their cross-references. There is one point which bothers me.
“If God IS the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world, then it follows that He must be the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good parent.”
A relationship of the infinite God to the virtue of a good parent is slightly illogical because God is divine and a good parent is not divine. Once there is the recognition that Divinity is different from humanity, then intellective free choice is understandable.

I often wonder why someone ignores the concept that there cannot be two first primary gods at the same time. Obviously, a human parent is not a first primary Creator God. Even when my neighbor acts like he is the god of the earth, he is definitely not equal to the almighty Divine Creator.

The early Catholic Church grappled with the concept that it was possible for one Person in the Most Holy Trinity to have two true natures. Arianism was one proposed solution. CCC 456 and following offers interesting information on the two true natures. Personally, I like CCC 470 and following. It is important to know the difference between assumed and absorbed. Could my gut be right that in your reasoning, you are looking Christ as having an absorbed nature?

 

[OneSheep]

The public meaning of Big Tent proposal is that any version of a doctrine such as the “fly in the ointment” doctrine is acceptable by everyone who wants to accept it. When someone considers the white Host as symbolic of people being in communion with each other – that becomes one of the many Catholic teachings in the Big Tent proposal.

A little FYI dear:

The Eucharist and ecclesial communion

1. The Eucharist is thus constitutive of the Church’s being and activity. This is why Christian antiquity used the same words, Corpus Christi, to designate Christ’s body born of the Virgin Mary, his eucharistic body and his ecclesial body.(34) This clear datum of the tradition helps us to appreciate the inseparability of Christ and the Church. The Lord Jesus, by offering himself in sacrifice for us, in his gift effectively pointed to the mystery of the Church. It is significant that the Second Eucharistic Prayer, invoking the Paraclete, formulates its prayer for the unity of the Church as follows: “may all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit.” These words help us to see clearly how the res of the sacrament of the Eucharist is the unity of the faithful within ecclesial communion. The Eucharist is thus found at the root of the Church as a mystery of communion (35).

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis.html#The_Eucharist_and_the_Church

Is a “Big Tent” something to fear?

 

[grannymh]

A little FYI dear:

The Eucharist and ecclesial communion

1. The Eucharist is thus constitutive of the Church’s being and activity. This is why Christian antiquity used the same words, Corpus Christi, to designate Christ’s body born of the Virgin Mary, his eucharistic body and his ecclesial body.(34) This clear datum of the tradition helps us to appreciate the inseparability of Christ and the Church. The Lord Jesus, by offering himself in sacrifice for us, in his gift effectively pointed to the mystery of the Church. It is significant that the Second Eucharistic Prayer, invoking the Paraclete, formulates its prayer for the unity of the Church as follows: “may all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit.” These words help us to see clearly how the res of the sacrament of the Eucharist is the unity of the faithful within ecclesial communion. The Eucharist is thus found at the root of the Church as a mystery of communion (35).

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis.html#The_Eucharist_and_the_Church

Is a “Big Tent” something to fear?

Everyone knows that “fear” is based on the description or designation of the Big Tent theory.

Therefore, it is your duty to give us Reverend Richard Rohr’s description(s) of the Big Tent. You asked the question. Therefore, it is your responsibility to describe the “Big Tent” according to one of the famous priests of this century.

 

[OneSheep]

Everyone knows that “fear” is based on the description or designation of the Big Tent theory.

Therefore, it is your duty to give us Reverend Richard Rohr’s description(s) of the Big Tent. You asked the question. Therefore, it is your responsibility to describe the “Big Tent” according to one of the famous priests of this century.

Actually, I quoted our Pope Emeritus. I am not familiar with any priest’s description of a “Big Tent”.

Is a “Big Tent” something to fear, Granny?

 

[Doug_Kraeger]

@grannymh You said, “While I need time to read post 698 a few more times … especially the Catechism citations and their cross-references. There is one point which bothers me.
“If God IS the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world, then it follows that He must be the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good parent.”
A relationship of the infinite God to the virtue of a good parent is slightly illogical because God is divine and a good parent is not divine. Once there is the recognition that Divinity is different from humanity, then intellective free choice is understandable.”

I believe that the entire sentence, and therefore the more complete thought was:
If God IS the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world, then it follows that He must be the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good parent who wills to share all the good they have received from God with their children and therefore it follows, it must be true, that God wills to share HIMSELF completely with those made in HIS image and likeness, made that way so that God could share HIMSELF with them. “

Are you intending to imply that God is not the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world?
If virtues are good and God IS infinite goodness, how could He not be the infinite perfection of a virtue?

 

[grannymh]

@grannymh You said, “While I need time to read post 698 a few more times … especially the Catechism citations and their cross-references. There is one point which bothers me.
“If God IS the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world, then it follows that He must be the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good parent.”
A relationship of the infinite God to the virtue of a good parent is slightly illogical because God is divine and a good parent is not divine. Once there is the recognition that Divinity is different from humanity, then intellective free choice is understandable.”

I believe that the entire sentence, and therefore the more complete thought was:
If God IS the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world, then it follows that He must be the infinite perfection of the virtue of a good parent who wills to share all the good they have received from God with their children and therefore it follows, it must be true, that God wills to share HIMSELF completely with those made in HIS image and likeness, made that way so that God could share HIMSELF with them. “

Are you intending to imply that God is not the infinite perfection of every virtue we can know in this world?
If virtues are good and God IS infinite goodness, how could He not be the infinite perfection of a virtue?

Please accept my sincere apology.

Somehow I thought you were referring to the Incarnation and the Hypostatic Union. The Hypostatic Union is necessary because of the events in the first three truth-filled chapters of Genesis. All is not lost because I found some excellent information in the recommended CCC paragraphs.

Because of my lack of philosophy, I cannot continue this conversation.

 

[simpleas]

Who was it that first referred to the Church as ‘The big tent’ on these threads? I don’t recall.

Out of curiosity I googled ‘the big tent and church’ and a article was first listed that was recently written this month.

I had a quick glance (as it’s nearly midnight here) looked interesting,so I’ve shared it for others to read.

patheos.com/blogs/jappersandjanglers/2016/12/big-tent-catholic-church/

May I wish you all health and happiness for 2017.

:flowers::angel1::harp:

 

[grannymh]

Actually, I quoted our Pope Emeritus. I am not familiar with any priest’s description of a “Big Tent”.

Is a “Big Tent” something to fear, Granny?

Apparently, you are too young to have heard about the Big Tent Religious Shelter aka Big Tent.

Still, you need to know where to find safety if a talking snake offers you a rotten apple from a farm named Old Eden.

I will do my best to explain. The Big Tent Religious Shelter aka Big Tent is a place where the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass cannot be celebrated because it violates the beliefs of some of the inhabitants in the Tent.

Maybe someday you will accidentally find an old book which still has the three beginning chapters of Sacred Scripture. Immediately throw this book into the trash because the reason people hide in the Big Tent is that those first three fascinating chapters of Genesis scares them silly. By the way, immediately wash this thread from your brain. Original Sin is the name of a monster with four heads, east, west, north, and south.

 

[grannymh]

Who was it that first referred to the Church as ‘The big tent’ on these threads? I don’t recall.

Out of curiosity I googled ‘the big tent and church’ and a article was first listed that was recently written this month.

I had a quick glance (as it’s nearly midnight here) looked interesting,so I’ve shared it for others to read.

patheos.com/blogs/jappersandjanglers/2016/12/big-tent-catholic-church/

May I wish you all health and happiness for 2017.

:flowers::angel1::harp:

Thank you for the good wishes for health and happiness for 2017. I love flowers.

Most likely, I was the one who referred to the Big Tent. Apparently, I belong to the dead generation which understood basic Catholicism and what was happening within the Catholic Church.

When I first read chapters 11 & 12 in *Humani Generis, *I already knew what Pope Pius XII was talking about. I also learned that Modern Arianism is real. Maybe the disconnect is due to the popular term “Cafeteria Catholics.”

When I learned about the Big Tent, it was a popular term describing what Pope Pius XII described. It is a great description for the work of a popular public Catholic priest writer/speaker. Post 706 is an actual description of the popular Big Tent if one has the guts to dig for the truth. I will be totally surprised if anyone notices the error in **"**And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation." from post 693. On the other hand, maybe the CAF members who understand the protocol of the visible Catholic Church on earth will comment. I am sure there are guests who want information about what is happening within the walls of the Catholic Church. Most likely, they are familiar with the Big Tent and they understand exactly the warning of Pope Pius XII.

Link to Humani Generis
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

 

[grannymh]

Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit. And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation. People who go to another church just because they disagree are not understanding the meaning of communion, of the centrality of Eucharist. The Church is not just an ideology, a bunch of doctrines. The Church is defined by Eucharist, by relationship, as family, correct? People in a family can disagree on opinions or what they think is important.

I am looking forward to your response to my comments about this valuable important paragraph from post 514, page 35.
“Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit. And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation. People who go to another church just because they disagree are not understanding the meaning of communion, of the centrality of Eucharist. The Church is not just an ideology, a bunch of doctrines. The Church is defined by Eucharist, by relationship, as family, correct? People in a family can disagree on opinions or what they think is important.”

Really love that word “us” in this beautiful sentence “And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation.” This morning, I looked into the mirror and decided that I am one of the us. Thank you, OneSheep. I feel great about that.

Therefore, would you kindly tell me your first step to unfolding revelation. This is the first day of 2017 and a good start would be to learn how to do what you are teaching.

If you are busy with family events celebrating 2017, you can reply to me a bit later. But please do not forget me.

---

The human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[OneSheep]

Happy New Year Granny!

I am looking forward to your response to my comments about this valuable important paragraph from post 514, page 35.
“Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit. And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation. People who go to another church just because they disagree are not understanding the meaning of communion, of the centrality of Eucharist. The Church is not just an ideology, a bunch of doctrines. The Church is defined by Eucharist, by relationship, as family, correct? People in a family can disagree on opinions or what they think is important.”

Really love that word “us” in this beautiful sentence “And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation.” This morning, I looked into the mirror and decided that I am one of the us. Thank you, OneSheep. I feel great about that.

Therefore, would you kindly tell me your first step to unfolding revelation. This is the first day of 2017 and a good start would be to learn how to do what you are teaching.

If you are busy with family events celebrating 2017, you can reply to me a bit later. But please do not forget me.

---

The human person is worthy of profound respect.

Here it is. You have seen it before, but try to take a fresh look at it, a fresh read. This work both describes an “unfolding” and points in the direction of more to come:

robertaconnor.blogspot.com/2011/03/reappraisal-of-meaning-of-redemption.html

Apparently, you are too young to have heard about the Big Tent Religious Shelter aka Big Tent.

Still, you need to know where to find safety if a talking snake offers you a rotten apple from a farm named Old Eden.

I will do my best to explain. The Big Tent Religious Shelter aka Big Tent is a place where the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass cannot be celebrated because it violates the beliefs of some of the inhabitants in the Tent.

Maybe someday you will accidentally find an old book which still has the three beginning chapters of Sacred Scripture. Immediately throw this book into the trash because the reason people hide in the Big Tent is that those first three fascinating chapters of Genesis scares them silly. By the way, immediately wash this thread from your brain. Original Sin is the name of a monster with four heads, east, west, north, and south.

Source of the bold?

 

[cfauster]

Happy New Year Granny!

Here it is. You have seen it before, but try to take a fresh look at it, a fresh read. This work both describes an “unfolding” and points in the direction of more to come:

robertaconnor.blogspot.com/2011/03/reappraisal-of-meaning-of-redemption.html

Source of the bold?

The last part of the cited essay by Ratzinger is perhaps most important to me:

"We worship him by dropping the fiction of a realm in which we could face him as independent business partners, whereas in truth we can only exist at all in him and from him. Christian sacrifice does not consist in a giving of what God would to have without us but in our becoming totally receptive and letting ourselves be completely taken over by him. Letting God act on us – that is Christian sacrifice.”

Here’s another way to look at it: Anselm was using the model of a civil offense, a debt to be paid, one that we could not pay but Christ paid for us. But perhaps a more relevant analogy/model would be a criminal offense, one exemplifying our enmity towards our Creator. Restoring a right relationship involves something more than satisfying a debt.

What enables such reconciliation, such overturning of our estrangement and enmity towards God? Borrowing from the Prodigal Son parable:

One would be recognizing the pig sty situation in which we’ve placed ourselves by going astray.

Another would be recognizing that we can return (repent, turn around, and go home).

Another point of the parable - perhaps the main part - is the extravagant welcome extended to the returning prodigal, wayward child. Praise be to God.

Recognizing our waywardness is the start. I suspect that the Prodigal Son realized his father was generous, etc. from the start because (for example) the son had the audacity to request his inheritance early! What the son did not realize until later, of course, is that freedom to sin becomes slavery to sin if we abuse the freedom.

Of course, another interesting part of the parable is the other son, the obedient one who grumbled about how forgiving and generous the father was to the wayward son.

It’s a matter of balance. At times in our lives we identify more with one son or the other. Some people might identify more with one than with the other. In any case, God wants the “tent” to be “big” enough for us wayward wanderers to come home, yet God also does not want the tent to become a pig sty. When we come home, we need to confess and repent of what put us in the pig sty situation.

 

[grannymh]

Happy New Year Granny!

Thank you. And a Happy New Year to you and your family!

Here it is. You have seen it before, but try to take a fresh look at it, a fresh read. This work both describes an “unfolding” and points in the direction of more to come:

robertaconnor.blogspot.com/2011/03/reappraisal-of-meaning-of-redemption.html

Thank you so much for this great link. It is a wonderful New Year gift.

Now, let’s get down to what you wrote in post 514, page 35.

I am looking forward to your response to my comments about this valuable important paragraph from post 514, page 35.

“Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit. And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation. People who go to another church just because they disagree are not understanding the meaning of communion, of the centrality of Eucharist. The Church is not just an ideology, a bunch of doctrines. The Church is defined by Eucharist, by relationship, as family, correct? People in a family can disagree on opinions or what they think is important.”
Really love that word “us” in this beautiful sentence “And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation.” This morning, I looked into the mirror and decided that I am one of the us. Thank you, OneSheep. I feel great about that.

**Therefore, would you kindly tell me your first step to me unfolding revelation. **

I put the above in bold because you, not the author of that link, wrote the information in post 514, page 35. It is you, not anyone else, who presented the information. I am really excited about your proposition that the Spirit guides us – me-- in the unfolding of revelation. I am ready to go as soon as you kindly tell me your first step to get the Spirit involved.

 

[grannymh]

Happy New Year Granny!

Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Apparently, you are too young to have heard about the Big Tent Religious Shelter aka Big Tent. *

*Still, you need to know where to find safety if a talking snake offers you a rotten apple from a farm named Old Eden. *

I will do my best to explain. The Big Tent Religious Shelter aka Big Tent is a place where the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass cannot be celebrated because it violates the beliefs of some of the inhabitants in the Tent.

Maybe someday you will accidentally find an old book which still has the three beginning chapters of Sacred Scripture. Immediately throw this book into the trash because the reason people hide in the Big Tent is that those first three fascinating chapters of Genesis scares them silly. By the way, immediately wash this thread from your brain. Original Sin is the name of a monster with four heads, east, west, north, and south.

Source of the bold?

I probably should have put more of these in my post. My apology.

The sentence in bold follows the format of the talking snake in the line above. The whole thing is a parody of current ideas which can be used to explain the** older** version of Big Tent. It is also a parody of what people should do to get rid of chapters one, two, and three in the Book of Genesis. The conclusion is a parody of the current dangerous Original Sin.

The part in bold …
The Big Tent Religious Shelter aka Big Tent is a place where the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass cannot be celebrated because it violates the beliefs of some of the inhabitants in the Tent.
…is not a parody. It is a possibility in the future. It is a possibility which could happen if we do not take seriously the warning of Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, chapters 11& 12

Link to Humani Generis
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html