Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin?

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And me? My current commitment is to properly explain Original Sin and the Catholic teachings around it. Unfortunately, Catholics in general, do not have the deep Catholic education which contains the proper protocol of the visible Catholic Church on earth regarding the declaration of Catholic doctrines. This is why post 514 is so very important to understand.

Post 514 is a reflection of the bad idea that different opinions about topics such as Original Sin are permitted in the Catholic Church. In its own way, it reflects the power of a popular public speaker/writer to dismiss the first three necessary chapters in Genesis.

I do wish that the CAF members who receive e-mail messages from Reverend Richard Rohr would share with me some of their favorites. As evinced in the early part of this thread, I am a journalist who protects the confidentiality of my sources of information.

And you…
I pray that you will continue to proclaim the real truth of the real Catholic Church.

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
Good Morning Granny,

What do you see as the fruit of emphasizing original sin?

Separately, or maybe not:

Do you have a proof that a “popular public speaker/writer” dismisses “the first three necessary chapters in Genesis”? What is the purpose of saying that? What fruit do you wish for? Who are you talking about? Are you talking about a fellow Catholic?

Do our words promote schism, or do they promote communion?
 
Oof.

I did see that meditation today and read it. Fr. Rohr really skirts the edge by quoting a person who eventually was forbidden from teaching theology even though the book Original Blessing nor any other of his books were deemed heretical when investigated.

If we use the word “origin” for what came first, then we were truly originally blessed, as shown in Genesis 1. But then came this:

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

So while we were originally blessed, originally holy, the conception of a distorted image wounded our holiness; as awareness plays a huge role in diminishing holiness. So is “original sin” an original state, was it first? No, it is not, we were originally blessed with original holiness according to CCC399.

Fr. Rohr expands on the foundation of original blessedness, as Christ Himself, Revelation, removes the distortions.
Perhaps, it would be a good idea if people actually read the first three truth-filled chapters of Sacred Scripture. 👍

The True Original Blessing should be obvious to people who still appreciate Divine Revelation in the first chapter of Genesis. One could trip over it in a New York Minute.

CCC 399 relates the tragic consequences of the Original Sin. No mention of the actual Original Blessing detailed in the first chapter of Sacred Scripture. The author of those first three amazing chapters is not dumb. The Original Blessing is mentioned first in the section on human nature.

The really great thing about the Original Blessing, as soon as one can find it, is that it remained in the original Adam after he committed the original Original Sin.
Hint:
Jesus did not need the Original Blessing given to humans, because Jesus is the Second Person in the Most Holy Trinity.

Not sure about most Christian theology mentioned in the Meditation – my Catholic education began with the original Adam. Dang! I keep forgetting that some Catholics have trashed the first three annoying chapters of Genesis. No wonder “followers” miss the original Original Blessing.

A bit of trivia. Wikipedia lists the author of the Meditation as a Notable Progressive Christian. That is a great honor in our secular material environment. Unfortunately, as I learned in a thread that was dead in the water, there are many Catholics who are not aware of an emerging concept applied to the Catholic Church by people within the Catholic Church. Pope Pius XII spotted the “emerging” problem in the 1940’s. Because he wrote before smart phones and clouds of information resting in the sky, his writings are generally not acceptable.

On the other hand, I may be too doom and gloom.

I hope someone quickly names the verse of the Original Blessing.
 
Happy New Year Granny!

Here it is. You have seen it before, but try to take a fresh look at it, a fresh read. This work both describes an “unfolding” and points in the direction of more to come:

robertaconnor.blogspot.com/2011/03/reappraisal-of-meaning-of-redemption.html
Here is something related on Ratzinger’s views:

Servais: When Anselm says that Christ had to die on the cross to repair the infinite offense that had been made to God, and in this way to restore the shattered order, he uses a language which is difficult for modern man to accept (cfr. Gs 215.ss iv). Expressing oneself in this way, one risks likely to project onto God an image of a God of wrath, relentless toward the sin of man, with feelings of violence and aggression comparable with what we can experience ourselves. How is it possible to speak of God’s justice without potentially undermining the certainty, deeply established among the faithful, that the God of the Christians is a God “rich in mercy” (Ephesians 2:4)?

Benedict XVI: The conceptuality of St. Anselm has now become for us incomprehensible. It is our job to try again to understand the truth that lies behind this mode of expression. For my part I offer three points of view on this point:

a) the contrast between the Father, who insists in an absolute way on justice, and the Son who obeys the Father and, obedient, accepts the cruel demands of justice, is not only incomprehensible today, but, from the point of view of Trinitarian theology, is in itself all wrong. The Father and the Son are one and therefore their will is intrinsically one. When the Son in the Garden of Olives struggles with the will of the Father, it is not a matter of accepting for himself a cruel disposition of God, but rather of attracting humanity into the very will of God. We will have to come back again, later, to the relationship of the two wills of the Father and of the Son.

b) So why would the cross and the atonement? Somehow today, in the contortions of modern thought we mentioned above, the answer to these questions can be formulated in a new way. Let’s place ourselves in front of the incredible amount of evil, violence, falsehood, hatred, cruelty and arrogance that infect and destroy the whole world. This mass of evil cannot simply be declared non-existent, not even by God. It must be cleansed, reworked and overcome. Ancient Israel was convinced that the daily sacrifice for sins and above all the great liturgy of the Day of Atonement (Yom-Kippur) were necessary as a counterweight to the mass of evil in the world and that only through such rebalancing the world could, as it were, remain bearable. Once the sacrifices in the temple disappeared, it had to be asked what could be opposed to the higher powers of evil, how to find somehow a counterweight. The Christians knew that the temple destroyed was replaced by the resurrected body of the crucified Lord and in his radical and incommensurable love was created a counterweight to the immeasurable presence of evil. Indeed, they knew that the offers presented up until then could only be conceived of as a gesture of longing for a genuine counterweight. They also knew that in front of the excessive power of evil only an infinite love was enough, only an infinite atonement. They knew that the crucified and risen Christ is a power that can counter the power of evil and save the world. And on this basis they could even understand the meaning of their own sufferings as inserted into the suffering love of Christ and included as part of the redemptive power of such love. Above I quoted the theologian for whom God had to suffer for his sins in regard to the world. Now, due to this reversal of perspective, the following truths emerge: God simply cannot leave “as is” the mass of evil that comes from the freedom that he himself has granted. Only He, coming to share in the world’s suffering, can redeem the world.

c) On this basis, the relationship between the Father and the Son becomes more comprehensible. I will reproduce here on this subject a passage from the book by Henri de Lubac on Origen which I feel is very clear: “The Redeemer came into the world out of compassion for mankind. He took upon himself our passions even before being crucified, indeed even before descending to assume our flesh: if he had not experienced them beforehand, he would not have come to partake of our human life. But what was this suffering that he endured in advance for us? It was the passion of love. But the Father himself, the God of the universe, he who is overflowing with long-suffering, patience, mercy and compassion, does he also not suffer in a certain sense? ‘The Lord your God, in fact, has taken upon himself your ways as the one who takes upon himself his son’ (Deuteronomy 1, 31). God thus takes upon himself our customs as the Son of God took upon himself our sufferings. The Father himself is not without passion! If He is invoked, then He knows mercy and compassion. He perceives a suffering of love (Homilies on Ezekiel 6:6).”
 
In the Catholic Church, the Original Blessing is Genesis 1: 27.

God created mankind in His image;

in the image of God He created them;

male and female* He created them.

Praise God!

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
 
***The letter U is for the Uniqueness ***
***found in the first three historical ***
***chapters ***of Sacred Scripture.

This alphabetical uniqueness is a real challenge.

Perhaps we should start with the idea that the first three informational chapters of Genesis had to be unique in order to be truthful. How about studying the unique God Who began human nature with a marvelous original blessing – Genesis 1: 27.

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
Because human nature is directly from God.
 
Originally Posted by OneSheep
If we use the word “origin” for what came first, then we were truly originally blessed, as shown in Genesis 1.
Hi

Could you be more specific on which verse in Gen 1 you are referring to. Might be an obvious answer, but I’d just like to check.

Thanks,

Happy new year BTW. 👍
 
The problem with using the first couple of chapters in Genesis for anything is that they tend to be rather inaccurate. For example, they mention that there is a dome over the earth. Also, that a worldwide flood occurred. In addition, a literal interpretation of it would bring many to the notion that God just created humans without evolution (which is a well supported theory). It is nearly impossible to take these books literally. That is why Original Sin (which is apparantly a disease that we are guilty of) is very much confusing even when taking into account tradition.
 
The problem with using the first couple of chapters in Genesis for anything is that they tend to be rather inaccurate. For example, they mention that there is a dome over the earth. Also, that a worldwide flood occurred. In addition, a literal interpretation of it would bring many to the notion that God just created humans without evolution (which is a well supported theory). It is nearly impossible to take these books literally. That is why Original Sin (which is apparantly a disease that we are guilty of) is very much confusing even when taking into account tradition.
But the Church, of course, considers her interpretation of those parts of Genesis pertinent to man’s salvation to be correct, acknowledging that components of the stories are figurative and symbolic, others literal, others not of particular relevance.
 
One author’s balancing of original blessing and original sin:

Original Blessing Via Original Sin

The only way to follow the Four Paths and reach the ‘original blessing’ is via the truths of original sin (Fall) and God’s atonement in Christ (Redemption).
  1. Creation (‘Original Blessing’). God made plants, animals and humans and also our potential in art and technology. In the beginning, all was good and humans had a special role of stewarding the creation for God, to bless the creation by discovering, developing and enriching it (Gen.1:28, Gen 2). To enable us to do this, we were given special characteristics, and a special relationship with God. We are called to walk the Four Paths. God enters his creation and shows us how.
  2. Fall (Original Sin). But we turn away from God. We become self-centred, a source of harm to others, a curse not a blessing. This manifests itself in pride, arrogance, unconcern (e.g. for the poor, Ezekiel 16:49), rebellion, and these all lead to injustice and suffering. Unconcern for creation prevents us from taking the Via Positiva. Pride prevents us taking the Via Negativa. Rebellion distorts the Via Creativa. And arrogance prevents us taking the Via Transformativa. We cannot escape the curse. Nothing in creation (education, law, healing, or human will) can overcome it. It goes deeper than inability; our presuppositions about reality prevent us realising, and pride prevents us admitting, how helpless we are.
  3. Redemption. “But God so loved the world,” (note: the world, not just human beings), “that he gave his only Son …” to redeem us (John 3:16). Romans 8 gives a broad picture: those who accept God’s redeeming work are no longer condemned (v.1), rightly call God “Father” (v.15) and are transformed (v.12-14) and set free (v.21), and nothing can separate us from God’s love (v.35).
  4. Real ‘Creation Spirituality’. Notice Romans 8 v.19-22: the Creation itself will share this joy. It is the truly-redeemed who bring joy to Creation, not because there is no Fall, but because God lives in them, and empowers them to treat Creation aright (Gal.5:22-23). They walk the Four Paths so that the Creation, which includes ourselves, will come to completion in Christ (Col.1:20).
The above comes at the conclusion of Dr. Andrew Basden’s “True ‘Creation Spirituality’:
Original Blessing and Original Sin ~ a Critique of Matthew Fox’s Theology.”

 
But the Church, of course, considers her interpretation of those parts of Genesis pertinent to man’s salvation to be correct, acknowledging that components of the stories are figurative and symbolic, others literal, others not of particular relevance.
Certainly, I would be rather surprised if the church considered it otherwise. However, there should be some reasoning behind it. Constantly consigning more and more of the Bible to the figurative sense only points towards the idea that it isn’t actually that realistic.

It is especially concorning that people have interpreted this stuff as literal for quite a long time. I think that it would be more beneficial and less confusing for the faithful if the Bible only contained messages of love and forgiveness rather than plainly false geographical and biological ideas.
 
Certainly, I would be rather surprised if the church considered it otherwise. However, there should be some reasoning behind it. Constantly consigning more and more of the Bible to the figurative sense only points towards the idea that it isn’t actually that realistic.

It is especially concorning that people have interpreted this stuff as literal for quite a long time. I think that it would be more beneficial and less confusing for the faithful if the Bible only contained messages of love and forgiveness rather than plainly false geographical and biological ideas.
Figurative, or allegorical, or non-literal senses of scripture, however you want to call it…

These are not “consignments”, they are fully inspired senses of scripture that convey saving Truth. It is a phenomenon of modern man that we do not give full credence to other than literalist writings. It is the creeping in of rationalism.
Genesis was never written or intended in a purely literalist or purely historical sense. To insist on it is to rob the scriptures of the fullness of Truth.

Christ himself did not exclusively quote the OT in a literal sense to convey Truth. He repeatedly used analogies, parables, common theoretical examples found in nature.
 
Figurative, or allegorical, or non-literal senses of scripture, however you want to call it…

These are not “consignments”, they are fully inspired senses of scripture that convey saving Truth. It is a phenomenon of modern man that we do not give full credence to other than literalist writings. It is the creeping in of rationalism.
Genesis was never written or intended in a purely literalist or purely historical sense. To insist on it is to rob the scriptures of the fullness of Truth.

Christ himself did not exclusively quote the OT in a literal sense to convey Truth. He repeatedly used analogies, parables, common theoretical examples found in nature.
Actually, many modern men use abstractions and allegories and comparisons. However, it is hard to lend credence to a hinges which shifts from literal to allegorical in such a haphazard way. Usually, when one uses an allegory, it is rather clear to all the audience that it is only an allegory.

Also, while it is true that Genesis was not written initially to be literal completely, the problem is it has been taken as such.

The problem (I think) with the old testament is that it isn’t very useful to faithful Catholics and Christians. To get a coherent message from it, one must (as you mentioned in another topic) read it with the context of the New Testament taken into consideration. There are so many good and upstanding books on the principles of Catholicism that it seems out of place to include the Old Testament in required reading
 
Certainly, I would be rather surprised if the church considered it otherwise. However, there should be some reasoning behind it. Constantly consigning more and more of the Bible to the figurative sense only points towards the idea that it isn’t actually that realistic.

It is especially concorning that people have interpreted this stuff as literal for quite a long time. I think that it would be more beneficial and less confusing for the faithful if the Bible only contained messages of love and forgiveness rather than plainly false geographical and biological ideas.
Well, the Church continued in the vein that St Paul followed citing Genesis in Rom 5 when contrasting Adam’s sin- that affected all humanity-with Jesus’s triumph over it. I don’t know why the Church, then or now, can’t understand the meaning of passages that relate Adam’s act of disobedience and its consequences since that’s a focal point of the early chapters of Genesis (man’s disrupted relationship with God) and also the purpose of the Church to begin with- to understand the problem and help *restore *man’s relationship with God.
 
Here is something related on Ratzinger’s views:

Servais: When Anselm says that Christ had to die on the cross to repair the infinite offense that had been made to God, and in this way to restore the shattered order, he uses a language which is difficult for modern man to accept (cfr. Gs 215.ss iv). Expressing oneself in this way, one risks likely to project onto God an image of a God of wrath, relentless toward the sin of man, with feelings of violence and aggression comparable with what we can experience ourselves. How is it possible to speak of God’s justice without potentially undermining the certainty, deeply established among the faithful, that the God of the Christians is a God “rich in mercy” (Ephesians 2:4)?

Benedict XVI: The conceptuality of St. Anselm has now become for us incomprehensible. It is our job to try again to understand the truth that lies behind this mode of expression. For my part I offer three points of view on this point:

a) the contrast between the Father, who insists in an absolute way on justice, and the Son who obeys the Father and, obedient, accepts the cruel demands of justice, is not only incomprehensible today, but, from the point of view of Trinitarian theology, is in itself all wrong. The Father and the Son are one and therefore their will is intrinsically one. When the Son in the Garden of Olives struggles with the will of the Father, it is not a matter of accepting for himself a cruel disposition of God, but rather of attracting humanity into the very will of God. We will have to come back again, later, to the relationship of the two wills of the Father and of the Son.

b) So why would the cross and the atonement? Somehow today, in the contortions of modern thought we mentioned above, the answer to these questions can be formulated in a new way. Let’s place ourselves in front of the incredible amount of evil, violence, falsehood, hatred, cruelty and arrogance that infect and destroy the whole world. This mass of evil cannot simply be declared non-existent, not even by God. It must be cleansed, reworked and overcome. Ancient Israel was convinced that the daily sacrifice for sins and above all the great liturgy of the Day of Atonement (Yom-Kippur) were necessary as a counterweight to the mass of evil in the world and that only through such rebalancing the world could, as it were, remain bearable. Once the sacrifices in the temple disappeared, it had to be asked what could be opposed to the higher powers of evil, how to find somehow a counterweight. The Christians knew that the temple destroyed was replaced by the resurrected body of the crucified Lord and in his radical and incommensurable love was created a counterweight to the immeasurable presence of evil. Indeed, they knew that the offers presented up until then could only be conceived of as a gesture of longing for a genuine counterweight. They also knew that in front of the excessive power of evil only an infinite love was enough, only an infinite atonement. They knew that the crucified and risen Christ is a power that can counter the power of evil and save the world. And on this basis they could even understand the meaning of their own sufferings as inserted into the suffering love of Christ and included as part of the redemptive power of such love. Above I quoted the theologian for whom God had to suffer for his sins in regard to the world. Now, due to this reversal of perspective, the following truths emerge: God simply cannot leave “as is” the mass of evil that comes from the freedom that he himself has granted. Only He, coming to share in the world’s suffering, can redeem the world.

c) On this basis, the relationship between the Father and the Son becomes more comprehensible. I will reproduce here on this subject a passage from the book by Henri de Lubac on Origen which I feel is very clear: “The Redeemer came into the world out of compassion for mankind. He took upon himself our passions even before being crucified, indeed even before descending to assume our flesh: if he had not experienced them beforehand, he would not have come to partake of our human life. But what was this suffering that he endured in advance for us? It was the passion of love. But the Father himself, the God of the universe, he who is overflowing with long-suffering, patience, mercy and compassion, does he also not suffer in a certain sense? ‘The Lord your God, in fact, has taken upon himself your ways as the one who takes upon himself his son’ (Deuteronomy 1, 31). God thus takes upon himself our customs as the Son of God took upon himself our sufferings. The Father himself is not without passion! If He is invoked, then He knows mercy and compassion. He perceives a suffering of love (Homilies on Ezekiel 6:6).”
Thank you for your pertinent (name removed by moderator)ut.

I am getting the feeling that the present is very different from the past. :doh2:
 
The problem with using the first couple of chapters in Genesis for anything is that they tend to be rather inaccurate. For example, they mention that there is a dome over the earth.
I believe that there is a sky above us regardless of how it is described. Though occasionally I do check the weather.
Also, that a worldwide flood occurred.
The worldwide flood is not in the first three foundational chapters of Sacred Scripture.
In addition, a literal interpretation of it would bring many to the notion that God just created humans without evolution (which is a well supported theory).
This does depend on which discipline of science is being discussed. In this Forum there is a ban on evolution discussion.
It is nearly impossible to take these books literally.
May I gently remind you that this thread is discussing the first three interesting chapters of the Genesis book.
That is why Original Sin (which is apparantly a disease that we are guilty of) is very much confusing even when taking into account tradition.
Sounds like another new disease. :eek:
 
Actually, many modern men use abstractions and allegories and comparisons. However, it is hard to lend credence to a hinges which shifts from literal to allegorical in such a haphazard way. Usually, when one uses an allegory, it is rather clear to all the audience that it is only an allegory.

Also, while it is true that Genesis was not written initially to be literal completely, the problem is it has been taken as such.

The problem (I think) with the old testament is that it isn’t very useful to faithful Catholics and Christians. To get a coherent message from it, one must (as you mentioned in another topic) read it with the context of the New Testament taken into consideration. There are so many good and upstanding books on the principles of Catholicism that it seems out of place to include the Old Testament in required reading
Problems with the Old Testament? I think you may be referring to the first three fantastic chapters of the book of Genesis. Usually, the messages in those lively chapters are apparently coherent. If you are having trouble, please give me chapter and verse and I will do my best to make Divine Revelation clearer.
 
***The letter U is for the Uniqueness ***
***found in the first three historical ***
***chapters ***of Sacred Scripture.

This alphabetical uniqueness is a real challenge.

Perhaps we should start with the idea that the first three informational chapters of Genesis had to be unique in order to be truthful. How about studying the unique God Who began human nature with a marvelous original blessing – Genesis 1: 27.
Considering all those legends of all those cultures which, at times, interacted with the Jewish people, it is amazing to me, that these people of God remained faithful to the belief in One God.

It is a good idea to go way back to previous posts. There are a lot of gems which may make readers, CAF members and guests, remember how great the One God really is. We can talk about all God’s love, but nothing can surpass this verse.

Genesis 1: 27
God created mankind in His image;
in the image of God He created them;
male and female* He created them.
usccb.org/bible/genesis/1

Being in the image of our God, with our rational spiritual soul and decomposing anatomy, we can share in God’s life. (State of Sanctifying Grace, CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

We know this because of the unique first three chapters of Genesis. God is literally all over the place in those special unique chapters.
 
We cannot tamper with the teachings of the unique Catholic Church.
Tampering with Original Sin leads to dark confusion.
 
When I hear internet talk about rebuilding Christianity from the bottom up, I realize that the unique Catholic Church has its foundation in cement. Praise God!

Readers may point to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and his wonderful information … especially when he speaks about past theologians and their various interpretations regarding Original Sin, etc. A problem sometimes happens when readers do not have sufficient information about how the visible Catholic Church organization operates on planet earth. This natural problem can arise from internet sentences; for example, these bait and switch sentences from post 514, page 35 above.
Sentence 1. “Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit.”

This is an excellent point referring to the major Ecumenical Catholic Church Councils which, because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are responsible for properly defining Catholic doctrines.
Sentence 2. “And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation.”

The switch starts with high ranking Council participants who have studied Sacred Scripture, Tradition, current doctrines, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, scholastic theologians, current theologians and philosophers, along with liturgy and homilies. This bait is switched to the false assumption that us are a proper prepared Catholic Church Council unfolding revelation for the benefit of individuals.

A brief observation of ourselves quickly affirms that us are not anywhere near participating in one of those great Catholic Councils. Most likely, football and a cold one in the fridge are on our agenda.

The bait in sentence 1 is an intriguing truth. When we think about it, we can be proud of our Catholic Church for following the wisdom of the promised Holy Spirit.

The switch in sentence 2 is the appealing idea that us are equal to the real participants in a real major Holy Spirit guided Ecumenical Church Council referred in the first sentence. Therefore, we can easily add new and improved teachings to the Catholic Deposit of Faith. We are told that us, of course, has the guiding power to unfold revelation so that our personal preferences will dominate. Us is front and center because of love which, by the way, is not properly presented when annoying doctrines challenge. Of course, (sentence 2) we can choose to dismiss those annoying doctrines flowing from the first three terrible chapters of Genesis. Perhaps the intention of sentence 2 is for us to be guided away.

It is time to use the word Catholicism because it stands as an unique Church within the designation of Christianity.

It is time to recognize that the Divine Revelation taught in the Catholic Church does not need tampering.
 
Hi

Could you be more specific on which verse in Gen 1 you are referring to. Might be an obvious answer, but I’d just like to check.

Thanks,

Happy new year BTW. 👍
Well, lovable Granny already brought this one forth:

27
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Along the same theme is this one:

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

From the “other thread” from what was presented there it can be inferred that St. Thomas Aquinas also saw blessing as foundational in people:

“Man like any other being has naturally an appetite for the good”

The appetite for good is arguably a blessing in itself. Yes, all people sin, but our appetites draw us to the good. As our awareness grows, and enhanced/celebrated by the sacraments, our ability to actually do the good is refined and developed.

We are blessed with a knowledge within to which our experiences give us access.

Do you agree, that our blessings are foundational?

Happy New Year to you also, friend. 🙂
 
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