Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin?

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grannymh said:
The switch starts with high ranking Council participants who have studied Sacred Scripture, Tradition, current doctrines, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, scholastic theologians, current theologians and philosophers, along with liturgy and homilies. This bait is switched to the false assumption that us are a proper prepared Catholic Church Council unfolding revelation for the benefit of individuals.
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Good Morning Granny,

You are missing something. Every Council participant started out as a child, growing up in a different household and world than any previous Council participant. They had mothers and fathers, friends. They grew up in a changing world where we know more and more about the environment and humanity itself. These Council members grew up among ordinary people, people who believe and disbelieve, in increasingly multicultural, multiethnic, multi-religious societies. Every Council member is a listener; these are people who learn from interacting with the faithful, as no person can block out wisdom when he or she acts through love. Of course, every council member in the modern world grows up with a new set of challenges to address.

There is no limit to how the Spirit acts in all of this, Granny. The Catechism is a living document. The Church is all the faithful, period, and even the tiniest voice among them may end up in the ear of a council member or members, or maybe not. Again, it is the Spirit that guides; our faith tells us so. If time stood still, there would be no need for such guidance.
 
OneSheep said:
Good Morning Granny,

You are missing something. Every Council participant started out as a child, growing up in a different household,
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Correct.

What is missing is that not every child, as an adult, became a recognized expert in Sacred Scripture, Tradition, current doctrines, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, scholastic theologians, current theologians and philosophers, along with liturgy and homilies. Refer to post 770. Nor was every child a pope or bishop.

In the real Catholic Church, there is the recognition that there are many ministries in the Mystical Body of Christ.

My apology. My son just appeared to take me to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The rest of your post is interesting. But it does not seem to reflect what a major Ecumenical Catholic Church Council does.

There is a comment about a chancing world. That is correct. However, the real Catholic Church does not change with the world, because of the full Divinity of Jesus Christ. In other words, He decides what is what. Not us currently living in the material world at a time when a major Church Council is not present. 😃

Post 770 has a lot of stuff…
 
OneSheep said:
Well, lovable Granny already brought this one forth:

27
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Along the same theme is this one:

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

From the “other thread” from what was presented there it can be inferred that St. Thomas Aquinas also saw blessing as foundational in people:

“Man like any other being has naturally an appetite for the good”

The appetite for good is arguably a blessing in itself. Yes, all people sin, but our appetites draw us to the good. As our awareness grows, and enhanced/celebrated by the sacraments, our ability to actually do the good is refined and developed.

We are blessed with a knowledge within to which our experiences give us access.

Do you agree, that our blessings are foundational?

Happy New Year to you also, friend. 🙂
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Thanks

I wasn’t sure which verse you were referring to, as I could read Genesis 1 as a whole first original blessing for all of creation, and that I do, I can see our blessings as foundational.

I think no matter what we do, we never lose this original blessing.
 
OneSheep said:
There is no limit to how the Spirit acts in all of this, Granny.
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What does the “Spirit” say about going to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass each Sunday?
The Catechism is a living document.
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If you are referring to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, what is your favorite Catholic truth which relates to this thread…that is, your favorite Catholic truth which flows from the first three chapters of Genesis? If it is an original blessing, please explain what the “Spirit” empowers humans to do?
The Church is all the faithful, period, and even the tiniest voice among them may end up in the ear of a council member or members, or maybe not.
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Are you forgetting about Jesus Christ, period?

Are you referring to a current major ecumenical Catholic Church Council? Why?
Again, it is the Spirit that guides; our faith tells us so. If time stood still, there would be no need for such guidance.
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How does the “Spirit” guide us about going to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass each Sunday?
 
In post 775, I returned to OneSheep’s post 772 and asked questions because I am driven by curiosity. I should have answered him with comments. My mistake. Here are my “corrections”.
OneSheep said:
There is no limit to how the Spirit acts in all of this, Granny.
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I hope you do not mind. I prefer using the title Holy Spirit for the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity. I learned that God is perfectly good. If someone disagrees, please take that problem to another thread.

When Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to us (chapter 14, Gospel of John) He wanted us to live in His Church. It is here within the Mystical Body of Christ (Catholic Church) that the Holy Spirit’s actions are to guide us to our future following bodily death. Please note that this is only one of the many actions of the Holy Spirit.
The Catechism is a living document.
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When I think about a Catechism book being a living document, I think of the Holy Spirit bringing understanding to us. The Holy Spirit does not change or update the truths in the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
The Church is all the faithful, period, and even the tiniest voice among them may end up in the ear of a council member or members, or maybe not.
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The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. It is His voice that we listen to. When we listen, we, being humans, have the ability to reject His voice.

I can understand the “tiniest voice” ending up in the ear of a council member because as a child, I lived in a geographical area which some people called the “grass roots” for Vatican II. AsI recall, after Vatican II, a parish couple went to the Vatican as part of a consultation group about some issue. Sorry, I do not know or remember all the details.
Again, it is the Spirit that guides; our faith tells us so. If time stood still, there would be no need for such guidance.
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There are so many ways that the Holy Spirit guides us, through the Sacraments, through prayers and homilies during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, through His gifts, through our prayers.

Jesus did not leave us orphans.
 
grannymh said:
In post 775, I returned to OneSheep’s post 772 and asked questions because I am driven by curiosity. I should have answered him with comments. My mistake. Here are my “corrections”.

I hope you do not mind. I prefer using the title Holy Spirit for the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity. I learned that God is perfectly good. If someone disagrees, please take that problem to another thread.

When Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to us (chapter 14, Gospel of John) He wanted us to live in His Church. It is here within the Mystical Body of Christ (Catholic Church) that the Holy Spirit’s actions are to guide us to our future following bodily death. Please note that this is only one of the many actions of the Holy Spirit.

When I think about a Catechism book being a living document, I think of the Holy Spirit bringing understanding to us. The Holy Spirit does not change or update the truths in the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. It is His voice that we listen to. When we listen, we, being humans, have the ability to reject His voice.

I can understand the “tiniest voice” ending up in the ear of a council member because as a child, I lived in a geographical area which some people called the “grass roots” for Vatican II. AsI recall, after Vatican II, a parish couple went to the Vatican as part of a consultation group about some issue. Sorry, I do not know or remember all the details.

There are so many ways that the Holy Spirit guides us, through the Sacraments, through prayers and homilies during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, through His gifts, through our prayers.

Jesus did not leave us orphans.
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Good Morning Granny,

Yes, we are in agreement on all of the above, I said nothing contrary. There is a minor exception in this:

“When I think about a Catechism book being a living document, I think of the Holy Spirit bringing understanding to us. The Holy Spirit does not change or update the truths in the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.”

Notice the words: “second edition”. It is not a matter of change, it is a matter of unfolding revelation. In order for the Holy Spirit to bring understanding to us, language is updated/modified/expanded upon. There will be new editions.

Peace be with you.
 
OneSheep said:
Notice the words: “second edition”. It is not a matter of change, it is a matter of unfolding revelation. In order for the Holy Spirit to bring understanding to us, language is updated/modified/expanded upon. There will be new editions.

Peace be with you.
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scborromeo.org/ccc/updates.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editio_typica

When the term *editio typical *confuses you… and most likely a number of modern Catholics…

Please let me know.

I will reply with some basic Catholicism, often overlooked by people who are working to “rebuild Christianity from the bottom up” (January 4, 2017, daily internet meditation from Reverend Richard Rohr)
 
  1. How does the second edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church differ from the first edition?
    The second edition differs in two ways. First, the second edition reflects the changes that were made in the final Latin text in 1997. Second, the second edition includes a new index. The glossary was also added in the American version of the second edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
  2. What is a brief history of the Catechism?
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church originated with a recommendation made at the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops in 1985. In 1986 Pope John Paul II appointed a Commission of Cardinals and Bishops to develop a compendium of Catholic doctrine. In 1989 the Commission sent the text to all the Bishops of the world for consultation. In 1990 the Commission examined and evaluated over 24,000 amendments suggested by the world’s bishops. The final draft is considerably different from the one that was circulated in 1989. In 1991 the Commission prepared the text for the Holy Father’s official approval. On June 25, 1992 Pope John Paul II officially approved the definitive version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. On December 8, 1992 Pope John Paul II promulgated the Catechism with an apostolic constitution.
  3. Does the Catechism replace other catechetical documents of the Church?
    No. The Catechism stands beside the other catechetical documents such as, Catechesi Tradendae, Evangelii Nuntiandi, General Directory for Catechesis and the catechetical documents of episcopal conferences. These documents create part of the context in which the Catechism is received and mediated to the particular circumstances of the local or national Church. The Catechism is intended to be a resource for the continuing renewal of catechesis and the development of future catechetical materials.
  4. Is the Catechism simply a list of doctrinal formulations?
    No. The Catechism presents the history and tradition of the Church’s doctrine in a complete yet summary way. It draws heavily from Scripture, the Church Fathers, liturgical texts and the lives and writings of the saints to illustrate the doctrinal content. The witness of these sources, especially the words and example of saints and scholars, underscores the Church’s ongoing, living tradition.
From
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-catechism-of-the-catholic-church.cfm
 
cfauster said:
48. How does the second edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church differ from the first edition?
The second edition differs in two ways. First, the second edition reflects the changes that were made in the final Latin text in 1997. Second, the second edition includes a new index. The glossary was also added in the American version of the second edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

4. What is a brief history of the Catechism?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church originated with a recommendation made at the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops in 1985. In 1986 Pope John Paul II appointed a Commission of Cardinals and Bishops to develop a compendium of Catholic doctrine. In 1989 the Commission sent the text to all the Bishops of the world for consultation. In 1990 the Commission examined and evaluated over 24,000 amendments suggested by the world’s bishops. The final draft is considerably different from the one that was circulated in 1989. In 1991 the Commission prepared the text for the Holy Father’s official approval. On June 25, 1992 Pope John Paul II officially approved the definitive version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. On December 8, 1992 Pope John Paul II promulgated the Catechism with an apostolic constitution.

12. Does the Catechism replace other catechetical documents of the Church?
No. The Catechism stands beside the other catechetical documents such as, Catechesi Tradendae, Evangelii Nuntiandi, General Directory for Catechesis and the catechetical documents of episcopal conferences. These documents create part of the context in which the Catechism is received and mediated to the particular circumstances of the local or national Church. The Catechism is intended to be a resource for the continuing renewal of catechesis and the development of future catechetical materials.

13. Is the Catechism simply a list of doctrinal formulations?
No. The Catechism presents the history and tradition of the Church’s doctrine in a complete yet summary way. It draws heavily from Scripture, the Church Fathers, liturgical texts and the lives and writings of the saints to illustrate the doctrinal content. The witness of these sources, especially the words and example of saints and scholars, underscores the Church’s ongoing, living tradition.

From
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-catechism-of-the-catholic-church.cfm
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👍
 
It is not always apparent when there is an attack on the Catholic Church.

The sincere people who advocate rebuilding Christianity from the bottom up believe that the Catholic Church needs to do a better job in welcoming. This good idea is not an attack. Still, we need to consider these two sentences found in post 514, page 35.

In welcoming, do we set aside certain doctrines in the name of a peaceful state of mind?
From post 514.
“Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit.
And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation.”
​
The objection to these two sentences is in post 770, page 52
From post 770.
“The switch in sentence 2 is the appealing idea that us are equal to the real participants in a real major Holy Spirit guided Ecumenical Church Council referred in the first sentence. Therefore, we can easily add new and improved teachings to the Catholic Deposit of Faith. We are told that us, of course, has the guiding power to unfold revelation so that our personal preferences will dominate. Us is front and center because of love which, by the way, is not properly presented when annoying doctrines challenge. Of course, (sentence 2) we can choose to dismiss those annoying doctrines flowing from the first three terrible chapters of Genesis. Perhaps the intention of sentence 2 is for us to be guided away.”
​
There are no specific annoying doctrines in sentence 2. What is being attacked is the Holy Spirit’s position in the Catholic Church. In the real Catholic Church, the Holy Spirit is the advocate for the truth. This truth, that is Divine Revelation, is declared via major Ecumenical Catholic Church Councils. A list of these Councils is in the CCC Index of Citations beginning on page 720.

It should be obvious that when “us” takes over the job of unfolding revelation, it is possibler that the Holy Spirit may present one of those modern annoying truths like the reality of Original Sin. There may be a time when we disagree with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we should seriously consider that when “us” gets rid of the first three historical chapters of Sacred Scripture, are “us” in a sense, removing the Holy Spirit?
 
Information for our Gentle Readers, CAF members and guests.

Post 781 is a wake-up call regarding what could be happening around the bend in the road.

Here is another rock or hole in the proposed road to rebuild Christianity. If we do not settle down and accept the Holy Spirit’s wisdom regarding Genesis 2: 15-17, an explanation of Original Sin, it is possible to lose sight of our heavenly goal as taught by Catholicism.

This is one of those mornings when I found something that needs a second thought.
From post 751, page 51
“I did see that meditation today and read it. Fr. Rohr really skirts the edge by quoting a person who eventually was forbidden from teaching theology even though the book Original Blessing nor any other of his books were deemed heretical when investigated.”

When a person really loves being in the Mystical Body of Christ (real Catholic Church) there can be a natural desire to learn and learn. CAF is a prime example of persons seeking knowledge about Catholic teachings. 👍

I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Still, there are times when I should not have to wait for an official heretical announcement about someone’s false teaching. Heavens to Betsy. Do I really need to sit on my hands (waiting for a heresy announcement) when Original Sin is referred to as a “fly in the ointment”?

myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Meditation–Original-Blessing.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=yAlpFk3eNPc
 
grannymh said:
It is not always apparent when there is an attack on the Catholic Church.

The sincere people who advocate rebuilding Christianity from the bottom up believe that the Catholic Church needs to do a better job in welcoming. This good idea is not an attack. Still, we need to consider these two sentences found in post 514, page 35.

In welcoming, do we set aside certain doctrines in the name of a peaceful state of mind?
From post 514.
“Yes, and the Catholic Church guided by the Spirit.
And the Spirit, of course, guides us in the unfolding of revelation.”
​
The objection to these two sentences is in post 770, page 52
From post 770.
“The switch in sentence 2 is the appealing idea that us are equal to the real participants in a real major Holy Spirit guided Ecumenical Church Council referred in the first sentence. Therefore, we can easily add new and improved teachings to the Catholic Deposit of Faith. We are told that us, of course, has the guiding power to unfold revelation so that our personal preferences will dominate. Us is front and center because of love which, by the way, is not properly presented when annoying doctrines challenge. Of course, (sentence 2) we can choose to dismiss those annoying doctrines flowing from the first three terrible chapters of Genesis. Perhaps the intention of sentence 2 is for us to be guided away.”
​
There are no specific annoying doctrines in sentence 2. What is being attacked is the Holy Spirit’s position in the Catholic Church. In the real Catholic Church, the Holy Spirit is the advocate for the truth. This truth, that is Divine Revelation, is declared via major Ecumenical Catholic Church Councils. A list of these Councils is in the CCC Index of Citations beginning on page 720.

It should be obvious that when “us” takes over the job of unfolding revelation, it is possibler that the Holy Spirit may present one of those modern annoying truths like the reality of Original Sin. There may be a time when we disagree with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we should seriously consider that when “us” gets rid of the first three historical chapters of Sacred Scripture, are “us” in a sense, removing the Holy Spirit?
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Good Morning Granny,

Just to let you know, your evaluation does not reflect my intent.

The hermeneutical approach to scripture is to give God the benefit of the doubt, as Jesus gave us the benefit of the doubt, seeing the truth of our value and good intent. If we cannot see the “benefit”, then it is best to remain silent in order to avoid slander.

I already explained my intent, so no need to repeat that here!

My request is, then, if you are going to quote me please refer back to my clarifications.
 
grannymh said:
I wonder if all the misunderstandings of Original Sin occur because some people no longer consider the first three chapters of Genesis as being important in modern life.
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Your question veers from your statement. Is Genesis an explanation of original sin? No. Genesis is used as a reference in support of the concept of original sin, but does not explain the concept of original sin. Genesis is a Judaical text, and Judaism does not have a concept of original sin.

Are the first three chapters of Genesis important in modern life? That would depend on the person. They seem to be very important to you, and they may serve as an important aspect of your faith. However, not all Catholics have read Genesis or have an understanding of Genesis, and many Catholics may have a misunderstanding of Genesis. A more important question is, “Must a person be familiar with Genesis in order to have faith, be baptized, and follow Christ?”

The answer: No. However, many people do think that the story of Adam and Eve is important, and that viewpoint is to be respected.
 
simpleas said:
Thanks

I wasn’t sure which verse you were referring to, as I could read Genesis 1 as a whole first original blessing for all of creation, and that I do, I can see our blessings as foundational.

I think no matter what we do, we never lose this original blessing.
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👍
 
OneSheep said:
Exactly. We will continue to have new saints and scholars, and the living tradition will continue to incorporate new aspects of unfolding revelation.

👍
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Onesheep when you say new aspects of unfolding revelation what do you mean? :o

I looked alittle at the older CCC and supporting documents and the only ‘changes’ to each ‘new’ writing was the words? The meaning or instruction is the same.
 
OneSheep said:
Your question veers from your statement. Is Genesis an explanation of original sin? No. Genesis is used as a reference in support of the concept of original sin, but does not explain the concept of original sin. Genesis is a Judaical text, and Judaism does not have a concept of original sin.

Are the first three chapters of Genesis important in modern life? That would depend on the person. They seem to be very important to you, and they may serve as an important aspect of your faith. However, not all Catholics have read Genesis or have an understanding of Genesis, and many Catholics may have a misunderstanding of Genesis. A more important question is, “Must a person be familiar with Genesis in order to have faith, be baptized, and follow Christ?”

The answer: No. However, many people do think that the story of Adam and Eve is important, and that viewpoint is to be respected.
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Clarification please. Which Christian Church did this come from?
 
OneSheep said:
Exactly. We will continue to have new saints and scholars, and the living tradition will continue to incorporate new aspects of unfolding revelation.

👍
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Clarification please. What are your statements that name the unfolding revelation?
 
OneSheep said:
Your question veers from your statement. Is Genesis an explanation of original sin? No. Genesis is used as a reference in support of the concept of original sin, but does not explain the concept of original sin. Genesis is a Judaical text, and Judaism does not have a concept of original sin.

Are the first three chapters of Genesis important in modern life? That would depend on the person. They seem to be very important to you, and they may serve as an important aspect of your faith. However, not all Catholics have read Genesis or have an understanding of Genesis, and many Catholics may have a misunderstanding of Genesis. A more important question is, “Must a person be familiar with Genesis in order to have faith, be baptized, and follow Christ?”

The answer: No. However, many people do think that the story of Adam and Eve is important, and that viewpoint is to be respected.
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Please. A second clarification is needed.

Regarding the “No” comment in the opening paragraph. What exactly are you trying to say in this post? Is the Catholic Church a good Christian Church or does it need a lot of rebuilding from the bottom up?
 
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