V
Vico
Guest
Post #51
- Status
G
grannymh
Guest
Going back to post 51, thank you, I have some comments.
Both Eve and Adam “committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would transmit *in a fallen state.” *(CCC 404. Italics are in the text.)
CCC 399
“Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image — that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.”
Because Eve was the first person who disobeyed, we cannot conclude that Adam is not responsible for Original Sin.
Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII, paragraph 37. w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
I put the significant information in bold.
"Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
Because Eve came into existence after Genesis 2: 15-17, it is apparent that God’s command was for Adam. Still, both Eve and Adam knew the command and both had freely disobeyed God. However, it is Adam whom God calls.
Genesis, chapter 3 usccb.org/bible/genesis/3
8
When they heard the sound of the LORD God walking about in the garden at the breezy time of the day,* the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.d
9
The LORD God then called to the man and asked him: Where are you?
10
He answered, “I heard You in the garden; but I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid.”
11
Then God asked: Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat?
12
The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me—she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.”
P
PJM
Guest
No
Actually not.And I’m unclear as to exactly what you means by Original sin “being something else?” Could you clarify for me?
Blessings,
Patrick
V
Vico
Guest
Yes, both are culpable.
J
joseie
Guest
My first post was no:42 (page3) where a view was proposed that the original sin was actually the act of sex between Adam and Eve.In the second post(no:45) I was reiterating the point that it couldn’t have been something else(such as simple eating the fruit as would appear from the verses) and also that all the confusion surrounding the original sin will be solved if this view is admitted.No
And I’m unclear as to exactly what you means by Original sin “being something else?” Could you clarify for me?
Blessings,
Patrick
G
grannymh
Guest
Clarification regarding culpable for Original Sin.
According to the evidence, there is only one culpable person, Adam, who is solely responsible for Original Sin. Please, keep in mind that the necessity of the divinity of Jesus Christ is connected to Adam.
Romans, chapter 5. usccb.org/bible/romans/5
I put the significant words in bold.
Humanity’s Sin through Adam.
12* Therefore, just as through** one person sin entered the world**,h and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned*—
13
for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.*(“http://www.usccb.org/bible/romans/5#53005013-i”)
14
But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.j
Grace and Life through Christ.
15
But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person’s transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of** the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many.
16
And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. For after one sin there was the judgment that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal.
17
For if, by the transgression of one person**, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ.
18
In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all.k
19
For just as through the** disobedience of one person** the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous.l
20
The law entered in* so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more,m
21
so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.n
S
simpleas
Guest
I think I see where the confusion is, back in post 49, you state :
It is the word one that I read to mean that only Adam had the original relationship with God, when I believe that Eve also had the original relationship with God before sin.
It is interesting that Eve’s relationship with God is basically fundamentally equal to the first human’s relationship with God. Yet Adam stands alone as the original sinner because Eve was not present in the garden at the time of the command.
I notice when the snake speaks to Eve, she does not say Adam, or my husband or the man that I live with in the garden said not to eat or touch the fruit, she tells the snake it was God who said this her.
S
simpleas
Guest
It is seems that way, even in the CCC the fall is described as a joint sin, but then it seems to switch to Adam only, and the word man is used a lot, yet man can mean both male and female.
G
grannymh
Guest
It is the word one that I read to mean that only Adam had the original relationship with God, when I believe that Eve also had the original relationship with God before sin.
It is interesting that Eve’s relationship with God is basically fundamentally equal to the first human’s relationship with God. Yet Adam stands alone as the original sinner because Eve was not present in the garden at the time of the command.
I notice when the snake speaks to Eve, she does not say Adam, or my husband or the man that I live with in the garden said not to eat or touch the fruit, she tells the snake it was God who said this her.
I am very sad about this situation. Apparently many people posting on CAF have no clue how to use the both-and approach.
Eve had her relationship with God because she is in the image of God. Adam had his relationship with God because he is in the image of God. In addition, Adam had an** unique** relationship because he is the unique first person on planet earth. Adam has *** both*** the natural relationship of being in the image of God ***and ***Adam had a unique first person relationship with God.
G
grannymh
Guest
I am very sad about this situation. Apparently many people posting on CAF do not know how to use the both-and approach.
Eve committed a personal sin of disobedience. Adam committed a personal sin of disobedience. In addition, Adam’s sin shattered humanity’s friendship relationship with Divinity because he is the unique first person on planet earth. Adam’s sin is both personal like the personal sin of Eve and it also affected God’s relationship with humanity aka Original Sin.
G
grannymh
Guest
It is the word one that I read to mean that only Adam had the original relationship with God, when I believe that Eve also had the original relationship with God before sin.
It is interesting that Eve’s relationship with God is basically fundamentally equal to the first human’s relationship with God. Yet Adam stands alone as the original sinner because Eve was not present in the garden at the time of the command.
I notice when the snake speaks to Eve, she does not say Adam, or my husband or the man that I live with in the garden said not to eat or touch the fruit, she tells the snake it was God who said this her.
Pardon me. You were posting while I was editing so you may have missed my post 66. Post 66 is Romans 5: 12-21 which is an example of how the Catholic Church can use the word “one” in referring to Adam and Jesus Christ. It is also demonstrates the [sad] importance of Adam’s relationship with God .
S
simpleas
Guest
If Man is used as male and female, then it stands to reason that both male and female were responsible. Giving one a unique position places one above the other, rather than by each others side. That is why one will always be seen as second, rather than two as a whole, made for each other.
V
Vico
Guest
Eve sinned. The cause of original sin, in following generations however, is Adam.
From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott:
Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
The Council of Trent says: propagatione, non imitatione transfusum omnibus. D[enzinger] 790.
In the baptism of children that is expurgated which they have incurred through generation. D[enzinger] 791.
As original sin is a peccatum naturae, it is transmitted in the same way as human nature, through the natural act of gen.ration. Although according to its origin, it is a single sin (D 790) that is the sin of the head of the race
alone (the sin of Eve is not the cause of original sin) it is multiplied over and over again through natural generation whenever a child of Adam enters existence. In each act of generation human nature is communicated in a condition deprived of grace. The chiefcause (causa efficiens principalis) of original silt is the sin of Adam alone.
V
Vico
Guest
See post #73.
V
Vico
Guest
I was taught from the Baltimore Catechism which has that they both sinned:
Q. 249. Did Adam and Eve remain faithful to God?
A. Adam and Eve did not remain faithful to God, but broke His command by eating the forbidden fruit.
Q. 250. Who was the first to disobey God?
A. Eve was the first to disobey God, and she induced Adam to do likewise.
Q. 251. How was Eve tempted to sin?
A. Eve was tempted to sin by the devil, who came in the form of a serpent and persuaded her to break God’s command.
Q. 252. Which were the chief causes that led Eve into sin?
A. The chief causes that led Eve into sin were: (1) She went into the danger of sinning by admiring what was forbidden, instead of avoiding it. (2) She did not fly from the temptation at once, but debated about yielding to it. Similar conduct on our part will lead us also into sin.
Q. 253. What befell Adam and Eve on account of their sin?
A. Adam and Eve, on account of their sin, lost innocence and holiness, and were doomed to sickness and death.
Q. 254. What other evils befell Adam and Eve on account of their sin?
A. Many other evils befell Adam and Eve on account of their sin. They were driven out of Paradise and condemned to toil. God also ordained that henceforth the earth should yield no crops without cultivation, and that the beasts, man’s former friends, should become his savage enemies.
Q. 255. Were we to remain in the Garden of Paradise forever if Adam had not sinned?
A. We were not to remain in the Garden of Paradise forever even if Adam had not sinned, but after passing through the years of our probation or trial upon earth we were to be taken, body and soul, into heaven without suffering death.
Q. 256. What evil befell us on account of the disobedience of our first parents?
A. On account of the disobedience of our first parents, we all share in their sin and punishment, as we should have shared in their happiness if they had remained faithful.
G
grannymh
Guest
Thank you.
While you are searching for other questions…
This question 255 names Adam as the one who committed Original Sin. I put the significant words in bold. It also verifies Genesis 2: 15-17. There is the “garden” and the key is – that Adam had to make a choice, like the choice presented in Genesis 2: 15-17.
Q. 255. **Were we to remain in the Garden of Paradise forever if Adam had not sinned?
**
A. We were not to remain in the Garden of Paradise forever even if Adam had not sinned, but after passing through the years of our probation or trial upon earth we were to be taken, body and soul, into heaven without suffering death.
V
Vico
Guest
And 252 that Eve sinned.
V
Vico
Guest
We read in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, but Ludwig Ott, p. 107 that:
The later Books of Holy Writ confirm this literal, historical interpretation. Ecclus. 25, 33: “From the woman came the beginning of sin. and by her we all die.” Wis. 2, 24: “But by the envy of the devil death came into the world.” 2 Cor. II, 3: 'But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted and fall away from the simplicity which is Christ." Cf. I Tim. 2, 14; Rom. 5, 12, et seq; John 8, 44. The mythological explanation, and the purely allegorical explanation (of the Alexandrines) are therefore to be rejected.
The sin of our First Parents was a sin of disobedience. Cf. Rom. 5, 19: By the disobedience of one man many were made sinners." The root of the disobedience was pride. Tob. 4, 14: From it (pride) all perdition took its beginning." Ecclus. 10. I5: “Pride is the beginning of all sin.” The theory that Original Sin was a sexual sin (St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Ambrose) cannot be accepted. The gravity of the sin is clear when we regard its purpose and the circumstances of the Divine commandment. St. Augustine regards Adam’s sin as an “inexpressibly great sin” (ineffabiliter grande peccatum: Op. Imperf. c.Jul. I 105).
V
Vico
Guest
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, II, I, Question 81. The cause of sin, on the part of man
Article 5. Whether if Eve, and not Adam, had sinned, their children would have contracted original sin?
On the contrary, The Apostle says (Romans 5:12): “By one man sin entered into this world.” Now if the woman would have transmitted original sin to her children, he should have said that it entered by two, since both of them sinned, or rather that it entered by a woman, since she sinned first. Therefore original sin is transmitted to the children, not by the mother, but by the father.
newadvent.org/summa/2081.htm
V
Vico
Guest
Transmission of original sin is by the father, yet Eve sinned also.
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, II, I, Question 81. The cause of sin, on the part of man
Article 5. Whether if Eve, and not Adam, had sinned, their children would have contracted original sin?
On the contrary, The Apostle says (Romans 5:12): “By one man sin entered into this world.” Now if the woman would have transmitted original sin to her children, he should have said that it entered by two, since both of them sinned, or rather that it entered by a woman, since she sinned first. Therefore original sin is transmitted to the children, not by the mother, but by the father.
I answer that, The solution of this question is made clear by what has been said. For it has been stated (1) that original sin is transmitted by the first parent in so far as he is the mover in the begetting of his children: wherefore it has been said (4) that if anyone were begotten materially only, of human flesh, they would not contract original sin. Now it is evident that in the opinion of philosophers, the active principle of generation is from the father, while the mother provides the matter. Therefore original sin, is contracted, not from the mother, but from the father: so that, accordingly, if Eve, and not Adam, had sinned, their children would not contract original sin: whereas, if Adam, and not Eve, had sinned, they would contract it.
newadvent.org/summa/2081.htm
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, II, II
Question 163. The first man’s sin
Article 4. Whether Adam’s sin was more grievous than Eve’s?
Reply to Objection 1. The woman was deceived because she was first of all puffed up with pride. Wherefore her ignorance did not excuse, but aggravated her sin, in so far as it was the cause of her being puffed up with still greater pride.
newadvent.org/summa/3163.htm
- Status