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Ryniev
Guest
Wouldn’t that be a Protestant?
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mosher
Guest
Well, schism is not a denial of doctrine but a denial of authority. To deny the authority of the local Bishop or the Pope is to have a schismatic disposition which is indeed where Gerry finds himself. Being in a state of schism is seperation from the Church and thus he could not be considered Catholic but rather something else.
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Yeah, a schismatic.
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robbmiller
Guest
Can someone reply to me privately (being a banned topic) why some consider the recent popes illegitimate? Please be specific. I have already read the “all since Vatican II” claims; but why? Can someone please explain in detail?
Thank you in advance,
Robb Miller
BTW: During an interview, Mel Gibson stated he was a traditionalist, not a sedevacantist.
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Thank you in advance,
Robb Miller
BTW: During an interview, Mel Gibson stated he was a traditionalist, not a sedevacantist.
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MrS
Guest
That was his former statement.
Watch carefully in the coming months… pay attention to who is funding the SSPX chapels, paying the dissedent priests, and promoting their cause.
Pay attention to MG’s coming “interviews”… and there will be some for sure since “enquiring minds want to know”.
Not all SSPXers are sedevacantists both both have rejected the authority of the Pope. While they may not sleep in the same bed, they share the same bedroom.
Watch carefully in the coming months… pay attention to who is funding the SSPX chapels, paying the dissedent priests, and promoting their cause.
Pay attention to MG’s coming “interviews”… and there will be some for sure since “enquiring minds want to know”.
Not all SSPXers are sedevacantists both both have rejected the authority of the Pope. While they may not sleep in the same bed, they share the same bedroom.
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JSmitty2005
Guest
While I tend to sympathize with the issues that these traditionalists bring up, I can’t help but view them the same way as Martin Luther - that is, if they’ve separated themselves from the Barque of Peter.
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Jaypeeto3
Guest
**Well, schism is not a denial of doctrine ** but a denial of authority. To deny the authority of the local Bishop or the Pope is to have a schismatic disposition which is indeed where Gerry finds himself. Being in a state of schism is seperation from the Church and thus he could not be considered Catholic but rather something else.
Good post. I think Gerry Matatics and the rest of those in the movement he supports, believe that Joseph Ratzinger denied defined Catholic dogma PRIOR to being elected pope.
I too have been confused by some of Ratzinger’s writings, but we should not be too quick to pronounce musings and theological opinions as evidence of formal heresy. The issue is very complex and I pray for Gerry Matatics.
God bless,
Jaypeeto3
Good post. I think Gerry Matatics and the rest of those in the movement he supports, believe that Joseph Ratzinger denied defined Catholic dogma PRIOR to being elected pope.
I too have been confused by some of Ratzinger’s writings, but we should not be too quick to pronounce musings and theological opinions as evidence of formal heresy. The issue is very complex and I pray for Gerry Matatics.
God bless,
Jaypeeto3
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trth_skr
Guest
I have a couple of useful links in my blog related to this situation.
I hope Gerry comes back to the Church (completely, i.e., out of schism at least). I have said in other places he is a type of protestant (and in simple terms he is, because doth protest the popes), but as someone else pointed out in this thread, he does still hold most, if not all Catholic dogma (except possibly that relating to the auhtority of the pope). He is certainly in a deeper state of schism than the SSPX.
Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
I hope Gerry comes back to the Church (completely, i.e., out of schism at least). I have said in other places he is a type of protestant (and in simple terms he is, because doth protest the popes), but as someone else pointed out in this thread, he does still hold most, if not all Catholic dogma (except possibly that relating to the auhtority of the pope). He is certainly in a deeper state of schism than the SSPX.
Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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Traditional32
Guest
If Benedict XVI would commit formal heresy then the sedevacantist position would be in fact valid. Such as if he were to worship in a Jewish Synagogue it would not take a pronouncment from some future tribunal or pope to make this decision for us. For that would leave us in dire straights if say a Pope were to receive incense from a hindu or kiss a muslim koran. This would be public manifest apostasy which is even worse than heresy because that supposed pope would whole heartedly deny the extreme importance of one being a Catholic and receive Catholic sacraments in order to obtain salvation. Invisible Ignorance should not be mistaken for Purposeful Ignorance, in other words we must do all we can to encourage others to become Catholic because nobody can say whether someone is invinsibly ignorant. Even still they must do the will of God in their ignorance which is VERY hard to do without the Grace of the Catholic Faith. Gerry Matatics is showing that the world will not influence his decision to do the Will of God. This conversion to the true Catholic Faith is certainly causing financial and social burdens that no one in this forum probably has even come close to experiencing. I for one and inspired by this great defender of the Faith, and if the world doesn’t end shortly, then I’m positive Catholic History will prove him to be one of the Greats. St. Thomas Aquinas, pray for Gerry Matatics in his mission to save souls from the fires of Hell. Our Lady of Fatima pray for Gerry as well.
God Bless You,
Dru
www.gerrymatatics.org
God Bless You,
Dru
www.gerrymatatics.org
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Pax tecum!
So “until” the pope does “commit formal heresy” you people will simply assume that he is a heretic anyway…that makes perfect sense.
I’ll pray for you.
In Christ,
Rand
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JSmitty2005
Guest
I’m very traditional-leaning like yourself, but Gerry Metatics is off the wall. I’m more of a Bob Sungenis kind of guy. Here’s what he had to say about Metatics:
catholicintl.com/catholicissues/gerry.htm
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DeFide
Guest
Dissent from authoritative Catholic teaching is not a traditional Catholic value.
At best, Sungenis & Matatics are dissidents, unless they’ve changed their attitudes from the last I’ve heard of them.
Here’s a site review from CatholicCulture.org:
Site Review for
Catholic Apologetics International
catholicintl.com
RATINGS
Fidelity: DANGER! || Resources: Fair || Useability: Excellent
First Evaluated: 06/12/02 Last Updated: 10/17/05
DESCRIPTION
CAI is self-described as “a Catholic lay apostolate dedicated to the teachings of Jesus Christ preserved by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.” Until recently this was an accurate description and the site had received CatholicCulture.org’s highest rating. While there is still much that is good on the site, it now coexists with the errors listed below.
CAI and Sungenis seem to have fallen into the unfortunate error of dogmatizing what are in fact personal views. Though the specific examples change with the addition of new material, with each visit to the site, we find that the tone of the site as a whole remains extreme and very confrontational.
STRENGTHS
· Extensive Q&A section (Resources)
· Heresy of the Month section (Resources)
· Section of refutations of anti-Catholic websites (Resources)
· Articles on various theological and apologetic topics (Resources)
Example(s)
· Read various dialogues between CAI staff members and non-Catholics (Resources)
Example(s)
WEAKNESSES
· Criticisms of the Pope John Paull II’s relations with other religions show an implicit rejection of Catholic teaching on salvation. (Fidelity)
Example(s)
· Constant criticism of the New Mass which promotes a disrespect for papal authorithy over the liturgy. (Fidelity)
Example(s)
· Some material is blatantly anti-semitic. (Fidelity)
Example(s)
· Questionable links (Fidelity)
Example(s)
· Places considerable stress on largely-discredited scientific theories, including advocacy of Geocentrism, as if acceptance of these theories is critical to right Faith. (Resources)
Example(s)
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graciefaith
Guest
What are SSPX and sedevecantist?
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Pax tecum!
Scan up through the thread. In short, sedevacantists don’t believe there has been a valid pope since Pius XII because they reject Vatican II. The SSPX is the Society of St. Pius X. They are a schismatic traditionalist group that rejects the Novus Ordo of the Mass and the Vatican II council. They do not, however, believe that we do not have a valid pope, as the sedevacantists do.
In Christ,
Rand
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Catholic29
Guest
Poor Gerry has indeed fallen off the deep end, and has become his own private Magisterium. He claims to be “Catholic” yet rejects any visible Church authority.
See if you don’t agree:
**
**
“Four Facts Everyone Needs to Know to Save One’s Soul”
10 am • Fact #1: God exists (The case for theism)
11: 15 am • Fact #2: Christ is God (The case for Christianity)
12:15 pm • 1st Q & A session
12:30 pm • Lunch break (on your own at hotel or nearby restaurants)
2 pm • Fact #3: The Catholic Church is Christ’s one true Church,
and outside of it there is no salvation (The case for Catholicism)
3:15 pm • Fact #4: The Vatican II religion is NOT the Catholic Faith,
but a clever counterfeit foretold in both Sacred Scripture and Catholic prophecy
and condemned in advance by the Church’s Magisterium
4:30 pm • 2nd Q & A session
gerrymatatics.org/index.php?id=91
So I ask Mr. Matatics, if the “Vatican II religion” was condemned in advance by the Church’s Magisterium, where is that Magisterium today? If it no longer exists, then where does that leave Matthew 16: 18 where Jesus says regarding the Church “and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it”?
See if you don’t agree:
**
**
“Four Facts Everyone Needs to Know to Save One’s Soul”
10 am • Fact #1: God exists (The case for theism)
11: 15 am • Fact #2: Christ is God (The case for Christianity)
12:15 pm • 1st Q & A session
12:30 pm • Lunch break (on your own at hotel or nearby restaurants)
2 pm • Fact #3: The Catholic Church is Christ’s one true Church,
and outside of it there is no salvation (The case for Catholicism)
3:15 pm • Fact #4: The Vatican II religion is NOT the Catholic Faith,
but a clever counterfeit foretold in both Sacred Scripture and Catholic prophecy
and condemned in advance by the Church’s Magisterium
4:30 pm • 2nd Q & A session
gerrymatatics.org/index.php?id=91
So I ask Mr. Matatics, if the “Vatican II religion” was condemned in advance by the Church’s Magisterium, where is that Magisterium today? If it no longer exists, then where does that leave Matthew 16: 18 where Jesus says regarding the Church “and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it”?
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
So because Benedict attended a synagogue service, that makes him an “apostate”??? This is silly. Even in the New Testament, we find that the early Christians continued to attend services at the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. Did that make THEM apostates? An apostate is a person who COMPLETELY REJECTS THE ENTIRE CHRISTIAN FAITH. Apostasy is not “easy” to commit, at least not as easy as the current papacy’s detractors like to claim. Good Grief, I wish my Jewish friends a “Happy Hanukkah” ---- does that supposedly mean that I embrace Judaism as equal to, or in place of, Christianity??? Of course not.
Yes, some of these “trads” have set themselves up as individual Magisteriums.
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
Yes, some of these “trads” have set themselves up as individual Magisteriums.
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
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thistle
Guest
As Gerry Matatics rejects the Authority of Rome he is somewhere between bad catholic and heretic!!
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Rand Al'Thor:
I think that Lefebvre accepted Vatican II in light of Tradition and then backed out at the last second. JP2 almost reconciled Rome and SSPX but they pulled out. Also, I believe that the SSPX just wrote something defending the validity of the Novus Ordo. I think I read it on Pat Madrid’s blog.
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JSmitty2005
Guest
CatholicCulture.org has no authority to be the monitor of Catholic sites on the net. Sungenis is loyal to Rome but critical of ecumenitis. I share his concerns and will continue to support him.
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
I agree. The criticisms of Bob Sungenis are much too severe and unwarranted. He fully accepts the authority of the Magisterium and of Vatican II and is in full communion with Rome. What some people don’t like about him is that he will criticise papal and ecclesial BEHAVIOUR when that behavior has no precedent in Holy Tradition (such as the Assisi gatherings). That does not make him bad, not in the least.
As for his promotion of geocentrism, I find that a bit quirky, but it is certainly harmless. And nothing Bob has said in favor of geocentrism has been as strong as what the CHURCH used to say in favor of it, so what’s the problem?
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
As for his promotion of geocentrism, I find that a bit quirky, but it is certainly harmless. And nothing Bob has said in favor of geocentrism has been as strong as what the CHURCH used to say in favor of it, so what’s the problem?
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
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