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kelleyclip
Guest
I agree. It depends entirely on the content.
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colmcille1
Guest
Hi kelleyclip,
I disagree completely.
Our bodies are God-given gifts. We should respect them fully. A previous poster made flippant comments about how we, logically therefore, ought not to do anything (wash, shave, etc) but this is missing the point re tattoos.
A tattoo is a self-indulgent mark. If a person needs to mark themselves in order to proclaim adherence to their faith, then there is something wrong with said person’s list of values.
Tattoos that are supposed to be positive and indicative of religious belief are no different than any ghastly satanic embellishments on the skin.
Tattoos are vain and self-approbatory.
Just as we would not wisely imbibe poison or consume bad meat, so we should not mark that which is God-given.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
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colmcille1
Guest
Hi kelleyclip,
There was an earlier thread on this topic with some fine points.
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Big_Dummy
Guest
This text from its historical cultural context has nothing to do with modern works of skin art.
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Big_Dummy
Guest
In context the defiling is sexual sin. There is no text that states that modern skin art is defiling the body.
Besides, how would you handle tats related to medical proceedures like radiatition treatments for cancer? Is that defiling the body too?
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colmcille1
Guest
Hi there,
Who exactly says that tattoos are “modern works of skin art”?
The point being that everyone in the marketplace has an agenda and the gullible customer dignifies it with dollars and cents. It has been ever thus.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
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Several_Flies
Guest
So, based on that certain scripture, you think everything in the OT is still in effect today? Failed reasoning. He came to fulfill certain aspects of it, especially what was prophesized. The moral law was never wiped out, such as adultery, etc.
There are customary laws however that have been wiped out, tatooing is one of them. The best way to illustrate this is with something similar from our day: Speeding. Speeding is sinful yes? But it depends on the country you are in, of course it’s immoral to break the road rules by whizzing past 150 km/h in a 60 zone. But there is nothing intrinsically wrong about going at 150 km/h in itself.
This is the same with tattooing, circumcision, etc. These were in effect to distinguish themselves from the gentiles. Who practiced tattooing, cutting, etc. as part of their rituals.
This has nothing to do with you.
Circumcision is no longer required, your understanding of the scriptures is very limited. The Catholic Church was not created by Jews, it was created by Christians. It was instituted after the disciples believed him to be the Messiah. Somewhere along the line you are having trouble distinguishing what is still meant to be in effect, and what is not. Heck, we might as all be Jewish then
I’m not going to give a doctoral thesis and analysis of the scriptures to show that circumcision is no longer required, Google it, simple.
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Several_Flies
Guest
The point being that there are certain people who are unable to read scripture and draw a logical conclusion based from it hint hint, or conveniently enter their own ideas deviating from scripture into the argument to justify themselves. The Church doesn’t actually condemn it, which in itself should turn a light-bulb on to realize that there isn’t anything wrong with it, but like many other things some caution should be exercised.
Every single person who opposes this, starts off with “temple of the lord” and “defiled” - yes, first establish how having a tattoo is “defiling” then perhaps you will be judged more credible. Because honestly, I don’t see defiling and tattooing in the same category.
Here are some great ideas to stop one from defiling their body:
- Move away from highly populated cities with high levels of pollution which result in respiratory problems and cancer, don’t defile the temple of the Lord with noxious fumes!
- Don’t have a BBQ, ever! Slightly burnt meats have carcinogenic properties which in turn can cause cancers in the body, don’t defile the temple of the Lord.
- Never ever have an operation, or any surgery, many of the cuts are permanent and leave a life-long mark on your skin, which defiles the temples of the Lord.
- Don’t amputate, for that is even worse, definitely no defiling the temple of the Lord there!
- Never ever become overweight, for that is defiling the temple of the Lord, and also sinful.
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colmcille1
Guest
Hi Several Flies,
I am arguing from one unassailable fact: my body is a God-given gift.
I have known this fact from the time I was old enough to reason.
If you agree with me on the fact of our bodies are gifts from God, then the rest of this post will be straightforward.
If you disagree then the focus is shifted on to why you disagree and I will have to ask you why you believe our bodies are not God-given.
Perhaps the most invidious aspect of moral relativism is it’s strand of origin that lies in the cult of the body. Broadly speaking, this states that my body is my own and I will do as I wish with it: I will cut it, mark it, change it’s sex, let others use and abuse it and I will rip another life out of it before time.
You, sir, are indulging in the same glib wisecracking employed by a previous poster.
Such is the over-indulgence of modern man that, like a spoiled child, he hates to be taken to task on any aspect of his smug lifestyle. Tattoos are the very hieroglyphics of smugness and moral relativism.
Why do you suppose street gangs and the prison population are known for their tattoos?
It is because of the result of the most intensive naval-gazing. It is overthought time directed inward as some validation of what is essentially an insecure psyche.
We are not beasts of the field to be branded as a mark of “belonging”. Such a mark is, ironically, a sign that the bearer is one lost soul; someone who has not yet seen that God loves us as He made us.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
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Several_Flies
Guest
Yes, I do agree with you on the fact that our bodies are gifts from God.
You have neither comprehended scripture nor really looked at the Church’s position on tattooing, you are going off into a tangent on moral relativism, a stab in the dark as to my position, which you have assumed incorrectly and therefore that ends your subsequent rant with that line of reasoning.
I have not paralled changing the sex of the body to tattooing, they are two distinctly different things and it’s erroneous (categorical error).
And you sir are ignorant of scripture as well as Church teaching in general, you are also insensitive and ignorant about cultural-doings. You are also unable to distinguish between various different bodily acts such as cutting, tattooing and sex-changes, which renders your reasoning void when it comes to forming cogent arguments.
It is not wisecracking I am employing or any previous posters, they are reasonings derived from scripture, the distinction between the Old Covenant and this New Covenant, and also general common-sense.
Tattoos are the very hieroglyphics of moral relativism? Mate
- I suggest you read a basic book on philosophy before entering into a debate mixing up various philosophies with acts that are pseudo-cultural and also not intrisically immoral.This here is what is known as “poisoning the well” before tackling issues such as moral relativism, it’s best that you are aware of some basic argumentation before falling short by spewing fallacies all over the place. Street gangs and prison populations are not the only groups known for tattoos. Maori tribes in NZ are also known for their distinctive tribal tattooing and many Catholic Maoris here wear it proudly.
Neither has the church hierarchy condemned it, because like other issues it’s dependent on what the tattoo is.
Let’s look at what we have established thus far shall we?
You are
- Unaware of scripture
- Unaware of the distinction between the OT and NT
- Unaware that personal opinion does not directly correlate with Church teaching
- Unaware of Church teaching or lack of on the matter
- Unaware of various cultures that appropriate tattooing that also happens to have significant Christian populations thus insensitive or ignorant of other cultures
- Unable to recognize fallacies in your argument(s)
- Made a wide sweeping generalization about tattoos alluding to prison and street gangs, which is erroneous as tattoo has pre-dated them
- Overlooked the fact that from near the start of Christianity certain Christian groups, some in communion with Rome have traditionally tattood various religious symbols on them.
- Made some pseudo-doctrine.
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colmcille1
Guest
God Bless,Yes, I do agree with you on the fact that our bodies are gifts from God.
Hi Several Flies,
Thank you for your reply.
We both obviously place different values upon God’s gift.
You have neither comprehended scripture nor really looked at the Church’s position on tattooing, you are going off into a tangent on moral relativism, a stab in the dark as to my position, which you have assumed incorrectly and therefore that ends your subsequent rant with that line of reasoning.
I have not paralled changing the sex of the body to tattooing, they are two distinctly different things and it’s erroneous (categorical error).
**I was making the point that moral relativism has a clear cult-of-the-body source (among others.) **
And you sir are ignorant of scripture as well as Church teaching in general, you are also insensitive and ignorant about cultural-doings. You are also unable to distinguish between various different bodily acts such as cutting, tattooing and sex-changes, which renders your reasoning void when it comes to forming cogent arguments.
Wrong. My argument is defined in terms of moral relativism. If you are not au fait with what moral relativism is or if you dislike the parameters of moral relativism is neither here nor there. Moral relativism is alive and thriving.
It is not wisecracking I am employing or any previous posters, they are reasonings derived from scripture, the distinction between the Old Covenant and this New Covenant, and also general common-sense.
Tattoos are the very hieroglyphics of moral relativism? Mate
Again, you are missing my point about moral relativism.
This here is what is known as “poisoning the well” before tackling issues such as moral relativism, it’s best that you are aware of some basic argumentation before falling short by spewing fallacies all over the place. Street gangs and prison populations are not the only groups known for tattoos. Maori tribes in NZ are also known for their distinctive tribal tattooing and many Catholic Maoris here wear it proudly.
I am clearly stating that tattoos are indicative of moral relativism. Can you please address this? And can also please address the point about about street gangs and prison populations?
Neither has the church hierarchy condemned it, because like other issues it’s dependent on what the tattoo is.
Wrong.
Let’s look at what we have established thus far shall we?
You are
Unbelievably wrong!
- Unaware of scripture
- Unaware of the distinction between the OT and NT
- Unaware that personal opinion does not directly correlate with Church teaching
- Unaware of Church teaching or lack of on the matter
- Unaware of various cultures that appropriate tattooing that also happens to have significant Christian populations thus insensitive or ignorant of other cultures
- Unable to recognize fallacies in your argument(s)
You have
It is NOT erroneous. Please do some research on this.
- Made a wide sweeping generalization about tattoos alluding to prison and street gangs, which is erroneous as tattoo has pre-dated them
Please give specific examples and can you then explain why the practise is not carried on today?
- Overlooked the fact that from near the start of Christianity certain Christian groups, some in communion with Rome have traditionally tattood various religious symbols on them.
I made points about moral relativism.
- Made some pseudo-doctrine.
Good luck!
Colmcille.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
You people have got to be kidding me. Such ignorance is inexcusable. If you truly think that the whole Book of Leviticus - including archaic tattoo restrictions and dietary laws - are morally binding, then you’re quite literally as poorly catechized as the Catholics who thought that the Eucharist is a mere symbol in the recent Pew study.
Here, let me help you. I’ll show you that you don’t really believe that the Levitical laws in any way apply to us today:
Rob Shannon, the verse directly before the one you quoted - that’s Leviticus 19:27, as you quoted verse 28 - says, “Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard.” If I ever lay eyes on you in person, I had better see before me a man with a beard that has never even had its edges trimmed. Otherwise, you’re a hypocrite for using Leviticus to denounce tattoos.
There are many more examples of obviously obsolete Levitical laws, but I’ll keep this succinct.
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jer. 17:9)
The moral law is neither determined nor reflected by any individual’s misguided scruples.
I hope so, too.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
By the way, I did not intend to refer to the OP with the phrase “misguided scruples” above. I realized after I posted that it sort of looks like I did. For the record, the OP never struck me as anything but a sincere and sensible question.
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ccpoisonivy
Guest
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 is the “your body is a temple” scripture. The arguments thus far is not to “defile” the temple of God. But, one could argue just the opposite as well. What do we do to our temples? Do we leave them as bare wood - just as God created the trees - and brick or do we honor the space by adding gold guilding and murals, stained glass and rich carpet, precious metals and gems? We as humans, create a space where we feel we can honor God appropriatly. Who is to say that someone who gets a tattoo, and gets one that is relevant and not contrary to teachings, isn’t doing exactly the same thing? By placing a cross on their chest or a Latin phrase on their back aren’t they creating their personal temple to reflect the way they want to worship God?
Finally, how do you tell the difference between a home and a church? Simply by the way we build it. The signs we place on it. Word of mouth as people tell others about their church. My point is, the Holy Spirit dwells in the church and in us as individuals. We may tell others that our body is a holy temple by taking care of ourselves (eating right, exercising, not being overweight), speaking to others, and having signs of Jesus on our persons. You can have tattoos, wear a cross, or whatever you deem as your own personal limit for your temple. It doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit dwells in you any more or less than another. Look at little country churches compared to the giant Basillicas… Catch my drift?
All in all, this is simply my opinion backed by my understanding of Scripture. Also, I will admit I have one tattoo, that tells everyone God is my God. It is a tattoo I would be proud to stand before Jesus and show him. I have it in a spot that I can cover it or show it, so I am not acting as those who suffer on the street instead of at home, away from people. It is not there for all to see all the time.
Really, just my :twocents: with a little fact thrown in.
:grouphug:
Finally, how do you tell the difference between a home and a church? Simply by the way we build it. The signs we place on it. Word of mouth as people tell others about their church. My point is, the Holy Spirit dwells in the church and in us as individuals. We may tell others that our body is a holy temple by taking care of ourselves (eating right, exercising, not being overweight), speaking to others, and having signs of Jesus on our persons. You can have tattoos, wear a cross, or whatever you deem as your own personal limit for your temple. It doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit dwells in you any more or less than another. Look at little country churches compared to the giant Basillicas… Catch my drift?
All in all, this is simply my opinion backed by my understanding of Scripture. Also, I will admit I have one tattoo, that tells everyone God is my God. It is a tattoo I would be proud to stand before Jesus and show him. I have it in a spot that I can cover it or show it, so I am not acting as those who suffer on the street instead of at home, away from people. It is not there for all to see all the time.
Really, just my :twocents: with a little fact thrown in.
:grouphug:
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illmatic
Guest
I’m covered in tattoos and I don’t see any reason why they would affect my relationship with God. Just do it!
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colmcille1
Guest
Hi cc,
I approach the subject from the angle of the actual thought process that goes into the decision to wear a tattoo. I believe vanity is the impetus behind such a decision because we see it as personal adornment; this is regardless of our probable intention of proclaiming religious adherence.
I cannot go along with your analogy of the body/church. A church is a common hallowed space for the community of worshippers. One’s body is a beautifully private God-given gift.
Why would we become inked-up billboards for all and sundry to gaze upon? What is the reason other than human vanity?
Even if we discuss tattoos outside of a religious dimension: how many people get tattoos and some time later regret their decision? I know one local man who had a huge portrait of his football team’s best player tattooed on his back. The following season, the player was sold to another club! What about lovers who split up and wear their exes names on arms, chest etc? Or teens who do it as a sign of rebellion and eventually regret it?
I do not see the point of religious tattoos. True faith comes from the heart.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
You can pretty much apply this to jewelry, clothes, make-up, and even hair-style. Sorry but you’re just fooling yourself into thinking that angle of vain people is the actual thought process of every single human being who wants to get a tattoo.
I guess, frankly, your brain must need some rewiring if you can’t see something so blatantly crystal clear. Both churches and people’s bodies are sacred by the definitions in this thread. Hence, why can we choose to decorate the former and not the latter?
Define vanity? Is the desire for self-expression vanity? What about identification? Is that vanity? How about the simple reason of doing it just for fun?
From my personal experience, vanity is only when you start boasting in a booming voice and acting like you’re better than everyone. Can’t say I’ve seen that behavior in all the individuals I’ve seen getting tattoos.
You know one could just opt for temporary tattoos right? :ehh: I mean I do whenever I could afford to buy one. I just slap it on and when I get tired of it, I know it’ll just vanish.
(Heck I’d print my own if I knew where to get the material.)
If faith can be expressed in paintings, sculptures, and music (which I remember, you are such a huuuge fan of
) then I don’t see why you’d deem people expressing their faith via tattoos to be “pointless”.
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colmcille1
Guest
Lost Wanderer, you should pay closer attention to your sentence construction. I never said people with faith tattoos are pointless. I said “I do not see the point of religious tattoos.”You can pretty much apply this to jewelry, clothes, make-up, and even hair-style. Sorry but you’re just fooling yourself into thinking that angle of vain people is the actual thought process of every single human being who wants to get a tattoo.
Ah Lost Wanderer, my old sparring buddy, good to chat with you again!
First off, I am talking of vanity as outlined in Ecclesiastes 2:1 and Jer. 10:3. If we are not on the same page(!) we will be debating at cross purposes.
I guess, frankly, your brain must need some rewiring if you can’t see something so blatantly crystal clear. Both churches and people’s bodies are sacred by the definitions in this thread. Hence, why can we choose to decorate the former and not the latter?
Please read the distinctions I posted. I have explained it clearly and unambiguously.
(And may I ask you please to refrain from personal remarks; makes you sound like a petulant spoilt kid…which I’m sure you’re not.)
Define vanity? Is the desire for self-expression vanity? What about identification? Is that vanity? How about the simple reason of doing it just for fun?
See above for my vanity register.
From my personal experience, vanity is only when you start boasting in a booming voice and acting like you’re better than everyone. Can’t say I’ve seen that behavior in all the individuals I’ve seen getting tattoos.
Again, give my Biblical refs some contemplation.
You know one could just opt for temporary tattoos right? :ehh: I mean I do whenever I could afford to buy one. I just slap it on and when I get tired of it, I know it’ll just vanish.
(Heck I’d print my own if I knew where to get the material.)
Not relevent. This is mere childish stuff.
If faith can be expressed in paintings, sculptures, and music (which I remember, you are such a huuuge fan of
God Bless,
Colmcille.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Ecclesiastes 2:1 - Read it in context. It speaks of too much worldly pleasure and centering human existence around it. Again, far from what I’ve seen in people who simply wanna try a tattoo.
Jer 10:3 - What in the blazes do wooden statues have to do with this!?
Your distinctions are moot. Hence, my intelligence is simply offended by your incapacity to see the analogy and deal with it properly. Both the human body and sacred buildings are holy, why can we decorate the latter and not the former? Answer the question.
How is it not relevant? You vainly attempt to discredit tattoos because permanent tattoos are regretted. I give you temporary tattoos as an alternative and a solution to whatever “regret” people would have.
Please learn to actually be a critical reader before trying to educate this English LnL (Language and Literature). My sentence is quite clear that I was referring to the act of “people expressing their faith via tattoos”. And yes, you did deem such acts pointless.
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thirdworld
Guest
Um…I thought I replied to this thread…I guess not.
If the Church doesn’t say that tattoos are a sin then they’re not a sin right? There should be no debate here…
Obviously getting a tattoo of something sinful would be wrong. But if someone gets a tattoo to express their devotion to God how could that be bad?
If the Church doesn’t say that tattoos are a sin then they’re not a sin right? There should be no debate here…
Obviously getting a tattoo of something sinful would be wrong. But if someone gets a tattoo to express their devotion to God how could that be bad?
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