Is getting married "instinctive"?

[Liberanosamalo]

Exactly.

Feminism has urged women to become virtual men—and then they complain that they can’t find men.

They work as hard as men, earn as much, buy their own houses, and live with their dogs. They need nothing.

So what would a man want with a woman who doesn’t need him?

ducks

Glad you’re ducking, because my aim is as good as any man’s.

Whatever feminism urged women to do, whatever nail they started pounding into the coffin of civilization, men pounded that nail home.

Many women have had to become virtual men out of necessity. Sure they can find men, but not responsible men who can keep a job or a promise or a vow. Yes, it would be nice to be taken care of, but I personally have had to work harder than my xh (he only has one job.) and I’ve had to maintain my house. And my dog is good protection because I don’t have a husband to do it.

It’s not that women don’t need men. They’ve had to fend for themselves because too many men like to be unchained, irresponsible and they’ll live with the girlfriend rather than make a commitment and make her his wife. Too many jokes out there about men who are out the door when you say the M word.

Should the solution be that I have to tell my daughters they are not as smart as a man, and they are relegated to second-class citizenship and lower salaries and rental homes for the duration of their lives if they do not find a kind, principled, devout and faithful man to share their lives (who will not die one minute before they do.)

I used to be told by xh that I was the smartest woman he knew. I always asked him “Does that still make me stupider than the dumbest man you know?”

There is a difference between feminism as preached by the world and a true feminism and respect for women as taught by the church. I think many men have made themselves practically irrelevant by their own actions. What woman really needs a drinking, angry, violent or philandering man to “take care of her.”

It’s easier to take care of yourself. And healthier. I’m just glad that in this society I wasn’t reduced to taking in laundry or begging on the street corner to do that.

 

[1ke]

The clerical workers are paid much much less than other adminstrative type jobs. Why is this? Because they don’t work as hard and their education levels are not beyond high school? Or is it because women mostly occupy these jobs and women’s work is not as highly valued as men’s (being very general here ).

It is because the knowledge, skills, and abilities required for the two jobs are different. As skill, education, and other requirements increase so does pay. Supply and demand is also a part of the equation. I can hire mailroom sorters all day long, but a great database analyst or engineer, not so easily.

It has nothing to do with whether a woman or man performs the job, pay is a function of the job itself.

Men are still seen in many job areas to be the main bread winners, and so their work is valued and must be compensated. Women are still sometimes seen as secondary income earners and the work isn’t as valued.

Dream on. In corporate America that would only get you sued and it is not how things work. All our jobs are assessed based on a matrix of skills, education, and experience required to do the job. Then each job is placed in a pay grade. Applicants who are hired into the job are paid based on the job grade, not their sex.

Women like myself also tend to flock to jobs where there are higher maternity benefits and flexible time, like one day off every two weeks or part time work. I also like stability in government work. They pay isn’t as high and the risk of losing one’s job is less.

That’s your choice, not discrimination.

But have you ever wondered why admin assistants don’t make as much for their work as others, like in IT or whatever?

No, I know why. It’s because the knowledge, skills, and abilities required for each job are totally different as is the supply/demand for each position.

 

[rpp]

You are correct in your observation if you look at it that way. Some careers don’t advertise the pay though either.

Another way to look at it is, what jobs do women have and what jobs do men have? If you look at the government type jobs ( the area I know best for myself anyways ), many clerical jobs are occupied by women. The clerical workers are paid much much less than other adminstrative type jobs. Why is this? Because they don’t work as hard and their education levels are not beyond high school? Or is it because women mostly occupy these jobs and women’s work is not as highly valued as men’s (being very general here ). Men are still seen in many job areas to be the main bread winners, and so their work is valued and must be compensated. Women are still sometimes seen as secondary income earners and the work isn’t as valued.

Women like myself also tend to flock to jobs where there are higher maternity benefits and flexible time, like one day off every two weeks or part time work. I also like stability in government work. They pay isn’t as high and the risk of losing one’s job is less.

But have you ever wondered why admin assistants don’t make as much for their work as others, like in IT or whatever? I mean, is one job really more work intensive than the other or do you think the admin assistants are paid less because they are women, and it is highly regarded as a woman’s job so not as valued?

(ceteris paribus)

I cannot believe you would compare an administrative assistant position to a job in IT (Information Technology)? There is no comparrison. The skills, education and knowledge required to do clerical work is dramatically less than that of an IT specialist.

Skill, experience, supply and demand dictate position and pay. After minimal qualifications are met, experience is becomes the critical factor.

Many women choose to have less experience and have more gaps in they work history than most men because they have children. It is not the fact that they are women, but that they usually have less experience and longer absences than men do.

Your other assertions about the work product of women is “less valued” is baseless.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

That argument doesn’t hold water entirely thought. I have a BA, a Masters in Gerontolgy and working toward my second Masters in Social Work, I have my licensure thought. I live in Boston, so the salaries are a little higher than in podunk Oklahoma, or East Bejesus NY, I make less than 35000 a year. I have to have a working knowledge of many different diseases, services, and a variety of of ther things. I have to be able to navigate the system on behalf of my clients. I have to deal with the elderly and their families, as well as the housing authority I am contracted to work with. My boyfriend has a BS in computer engineering and makes close to 80 grand a year. I have more education, but the same amount of experience, and he makes more than twice what I do.

Also, don’t kid yourselves about secrataries. I did it for a while in college, and lemme tell you, not only do we know more than you, we also know all the dirt on everyone in the office. You also should never tick off a secratary, cause they can and will make your life difficult. They are oftentimes the most intelligent people in the office

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Glad you’re ducking, because my aim is as good as any man’s.

Whatever feminism urged women to do, whatever nail they started pounding into the coffin of civilization, men pounded that nail home.

Many women have had to become virtual men out of necessity. Sure they can find men, but not responsible men who can keep a job or a promise or a vow. Yes, it would be nice to be taken care of, but I personally have had to work harder than my xh (he only has one job.) and I’ve had to maintain my house. And my dog is good protection because I don’t have a husband to do it.

It’s not that women don’t need men. They’ve had to fend for themselves because too many men like to be unchained, irresponsible and they’ll live with the girlfriend rather than make a commitment and make her his wife. Too many jokes out there about men who are out the door when you say the M word.

Should the solution be that I have to tell my daughters they are not as smart as a man, and they are relegated to second-class citizenship and lower salaries and rental homes for the duration of their lives if they do not find a kind, principled, devout and faithful man to share their lives (who will not die one minute before they do.)

I used to be told by xh that I was the smartest woman he knew. I always asked him “Does that still make me stupider than the dumbest man you know?”

There is a difference between feminism as preached by the world and a true feminism and respect for women as taught by the church. I think many men have made themselves practically irrelevant by their own actions. What woman really needs a drinking, angry, violent or philandering man to “take care of her.”

It’s easier to take care of yourself. And healthier. I’m just glad that in this society I wasn’t reduced to taking in laundry or begging on the street corner to do that.

I most respectfully disagree.

Motherhood and wifehood was viciously denigrated by feminists, who really hated both women and men.

Society as well as individuals are much, much better off when we accept that fact. We are equal in dignity in the eyes of God, but not equal in our tendencies and roles.

 

[rpp]

That argument doesn’t hold water entirely thought. I have a BA, a Masters in Gerontolgy and working toward my second Masters in Social Work, I have my licensure thought. I live in Boston, so the salaries are a little higher than in podunk Oklahoma, or East Bejesus NY, I make less than 35000 a year. I have to have a working knowledge of many different diseases, services, and a variety of of ther things. I have to be able to navigate the system on behalf of my clients. I have to deal with the elderly and their families, as well as the housing authority I am contracted to work with. My boyfriend has a BS in computer engineering and makes close to 80 grand a year. I have more education, but the same amount of experience, and he makes more than twice what I do.

Also, don’t kid yourselves about secrataries. I did it for a while in college, and lemme tell you, not only do we know more than you, we also know all the dirt on everyone in the office. You also should never tick off a secratary, cause they can and will make your life difficult. They are oftentimes the most intelligent people in the office

So it would appear that you chose a an education in an area where there is little demand. A person who gets a doctorate is theoretical physics but is not interested in teaching has few job opportunities as there is little demand. No one can dispute that such a man is poorly educated, just that the skills acquired have little commercial value.

 

[rpp]

I most respectfully disagree.

Motherhood and wifehood was viciously denigrated by feminists, who really hated both women and men.

Society as well as individuals are much, much better off when we accept that fact. We are equal in dignity in the eyes of God, but not equal in our tendencies and roles.

Quite true! Having both a the wife and husband spending all day working at their own jobs and careers has not done much for marital unity on the whole. It has also fed the consumerist ideals that now propel Western society.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

So it would appear that you chose a an education in an area where there is little demand. A person who gets a doctorate is theoretical physics but is not interested in teaching has few job opportunities as there is little demand. No one can dispute that such a man is poorly educated, just that the skills acquired have little commercial value.

Yes gerontolgy is a worthless field, because there are never people over the age of 65. SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!

I chose a field in a high demand, only to grow larger as the boomers choose to age in place. We can blow a boatload of money on the war in Iraq, but can;'t figure out a way to get me a 3% cost of living increase

 

[mchale]

Yes gerontolgy is a worthless field, because there are never people over the age of 65. SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!

I chose a field in a high demand, only to grow larger as the boomers choose to age in place. We can blow a boatload of money on the war in Iraq, but can;'t figure out a way to get me a 3% cost of living increase

This is off topic, but I think it is necessary to point out that there is a difference between a need and a demand, at least demand in the sense that capitalism thinks of it. Need describes what people really need, demand describes what people are willing to pay for it.

Unfortunately many elderly are poor and I suspect that the ones who need your services the most are the poor. Therefore while the need might be great, the demand (in the sense of how much people are willing to pay to meet that need) is relatively small.

Of course in time that might change, though considering how many teachers are still under paid, I wouldn’t bet on it any time soon.

–
Bill

 

[mchale]

In this general discussion, I think we need to clarify some terms here. Feminisim did not just begin in the 1960s. While I think there is definitely a strong movement among some feminists (who to a large measure tried to co-opt the movement starting in the 1960s) that is very much opposed to what for lack of a better term are considered traditional family values.

In any case, there are certain improvements that were and are necessary for women. As much as any of us might like the idea of a woman staying home and taking care of the kids, there are going to be situations where that is not possible. As someone who hopes to be married some day, I certainly hope my wife will be able to take time off to raise the kids, but at the same time, I want her to keep her job skills up to date just in case something happened to me.

Anyway, to get back on topic, yes, Marriage is instinctual, but it is an instinct that has been corrupted by our fallen state.

One last thought, yes many of us men do behave very badly with respect to women these days, but I think we need to keep in mind that it is a two way street. A lot of men treat women badly because women both allow it an encourage it. For any man who cheats on his wife with another woman, there is a woman allowing it (I will grant that some women don’t know the man is married, but many do, and even if they don’t, they actively participate in modern society’s sexual permissiveness). Yep, us men need to behave better, but women need to demand that we behave better and not let us get away with behaving badly.

–
Bill

 

[Sina]

People seem to be arguing the demand angle on job salaries.

A common scenario in my quadrant of downtown is as follows ( and exemplifies my household )

Male Engineer with a 4-5 year degree in the Oil and Gas industry with 3 or 4 years of designation experience worked makes $100,000.

Female financial analyst/CPA with a 4 year degree and 3 years post degree course work for a designation makes $60,000 in the oil and gas industry.

Same industry, same degree time, same smarts, same experience time, different skillsets.

Why the pay disparity? Same demand. Let’s face it, you cannot deny the fact that there are more men in the Engineering profession. More often than not, jobs that are male dominated are more valued.

Sorry to be off topic. I think getting married is instinctive I think for women to work, it is a necessity in my city, perhaps a joyful choice in other areas of our economy.

 

[Sina]

I cannot believe you would compare an administrative assistant position to a job in IT (Information Technology)? There is no comparrison. The skills, education and knowledge required to do clerical work is dramatically less than that of an IT specialist.

Sometimes the education levels are dramatically different, and sometimes they aren’t. I know plenty of IT specialists who didn’t get a university degree. They might have a diploma from a junior college or they might have experience in lieu of. Same goes for administrative assistants. Some went to college for at least two years. Some didn’t. The responsibilities on some of the levels are quite similar in my experience with dealing with both.

Obviously not ALL IT professionals are on par with adminstrative assistants, I just wanted you to give a pause for thought on the idea that women dominated professions are not as valued as male dominated professions. Who me an example where they are? Show me a women dominated profession that makes a lot of money? Or is your thesis that women purposely chose jobs that are lower pay? More maternity leave benefits etc??

So women who want a family and wish to balance their life with career and children/husband have no choice but lower paying jobs?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Sometimes the education levels are dramatically different, and sometimes they aren’t. I know plenty of IT specialists who didn’t get a university degree. They might have a diploma from a junior college or they might have experience in lieu of. Same goes for administrative assistants. Some went to college for at least two years. Some didn’t. The responsibilities on some of the levels are quite similar in my experience with dealing with both.

Obviously not ALL IT professionals are on par with adminstrative assistants, I just wanted you to give a pause for thought on the idea that women dominated professions are not as valued as male dominated professions. Who me an example where they are? Show me a women dominated profession that makes a lot of money? Or is your thesis that women purposely chose jobs that are lower pay? More maternity leave benefits etc??

So women who want a family and wish to balance their life with career and children/husband have no choice but lower paying jobs?

Do you see what damage years and years of feminist indoctrination have done? It’s like wallpaper; you don’t even notice it.

You CANNOT serve two masters.

You can’t be a mommy and a make-believe business exec. At least, not until the kids are older. If that’s offensive to some, fine—it only serves to show how the feminists have won in their battle to destroy the dignity of both sexes.

 

[Sina]

Women aren’t all seeking to be the business executives. I certainly am not. I do want to have the same opportunity of pay for the same hard work and education though.

I think it is a privelege for women to be able to stay at home with their kids when they are young.

On a lighter note, when I took a Womens Studies course, there was one theory being thrown around the class that Martha Stewart ( conspiracy theory of course ) was trying to get women back into their homes and away from the office by luring them in with her glossy magazines and placing importance on cooking, decorating, planning home based events and making life at home seem very appealing and chic.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

My mother and all of my aunts have done it. My fiance’s mother did it. My friends mother’s have all done it. It can be done, believe it or not.

Frankly, I don’t want to be a stay at home mom. Not because I am a snob, not because I don’t think being a mom is important, but because I’m not built that way. I get bored staying home from work, I like going to work. I love my job. It’s just about prioritizing your day. From 7 AM til 859 AM is my time. From 9-5 it’s my job/client’s time. From 5 til I go to bed is time I spend with my fiance or at school. I don’t feel like my life is lacking because I don’t have children at the moment. I don’t feel like my life would be lacking if I was unable to have children.

While I applaud women who feel compelled to stay at home and care for the children and the home, I don’t think it’s fair to say that it is for every woman. I don’t think it’s fair to say that a woman who decides she wishes to have a career outside of the the four walls of her abode makes her a horrible person who is shirking her responsibilities as a Christian female. I think ALL of us, regardless of what genitalia we were born with have gifts that God gave us, and that it is a waste of those gifts to not utilize them to the best of our abilities to help others. Someone might be an artist, should she not paint because she needs to handwash diapers? Should a social worker not aid those in a crisis because she has laundry to do? Should an engineer stop building and creating new technologies, or a briliant chemist stop pursuing the cure to cancer simply because something has sprung forth from her loins?

I don’t think they should stop simply because some people think that staying at home is better than not staying at home.

It’s the same in reverse. I don’t believe that a woman, or a man for that matter ,should stay in the workforce when they really and truly wish to remain at home and be the primary caretaker of the household simply because some say everyone should work.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

My mother and all of my aunts have done it. My fiance’s mother did it. My friends mother’s have all done it. It can be done, believe it or not.

Frankly, I don’t want to be a stay at home mom. Not because I am a snob, not because I don’t think being a mom is important, but because I’m not built that way. I get bored staying home from work, I like going to work. I love my job. It’s just about prioritizing your day. From 7 AM til 859 AM is my time. From 9-5 it’s my job/client’s time. From 5 til I go to bed is time I spend with my fiance or at school. I don’t feel like my life is lacking because I don’t have children at the moment. I don’t feel like my life would be lacking if I was unable to have children.

While I applaud women who feel compelled to stay at home and care for the children and the home, I don’t think it’s fair to say that it is for every woman. I don’t think it’s fair to say that a woman who decides she wishes to have a career outside of the the four walls of her abode makes her a horrible person who is shirking her responsibilities as a Christian female. I think ALL of us, regardless of what genitalia we were born with have gifts that God gave us, and that it is a waste of those gifts to not utilize them to the best of our abilities to help others. Someone might be an artist, should she not paint because she needs to handwash diapers? Should a social worker not aid those in a crisis because she has laundry to do? Should an engineer stop building and creating new technologies, or a briliant chemist stop pursuing the cure to cancer simply because something has sprung forth from her loins?

I don’t think they should stop simply because some people think that staying at home is better than not staying at home.

It’s the same in reverse. I don’t believe that a woman, or a man for that matter ,should stay in the workforce when they really and truly wish to remain at home and be the primary caretaker of the household simply because some say everyone should work.

I’m old enough to see the correlation between women in the workforce and the damage done to the traditional, nuclear family. And frankly I’m a little surprised to see that so many Catholics aren’t stopping to consider that women working outside the home equals a slew of damage to society.

Satan must be laughing somewhere.

 

[Sina]

What damage to society are you speaking of specifically? What damage does married women/mothers at work have in society?

I think it is VERY dangerous for women if they were not able to fiancially support themselves and educate themselves to the same degree that men do. In a perfect world, there would be no single motherhood, no divorce, but we do not live in a perfect world.

 

[rpp]

What damage to society are you speaking of specifically? What damage does married women/mothers at work have in society?

I think it is VERY dangerous for women if they were not able to fiancially support themselves and educate themselves to the same degree that men do. In a perfect world, there would be no single motherhood, no divorce, but we do not live in a perfect world.

The problems you cite are caused by the very behavior you are promoting. Looking at history, that is obvious.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I think our society has changed in a way that has not allowed women to work and have families. Long ago there were family businesses that allowed a talented woman to earn a living and assist her husband. While there is no job more taxing and taking more innovation and intelligence than forming the identities and talents of their children, not every woman is given children. Not every woman has the luxury of staying home. And why would God give a woman a tremendous talent and then have her hide it under a bushel basket?

I think the pendulum is swinging back and women are finding ways to combine motherhood and the use of their talents so they actually have a career to return to once the children are grown.
Women working from home has changed the notion that a woman’s only dignity came from producing children and raising them. As if she stopped counting as a person and her talents stopped counting once she got a husband. And while he grew in prestige and success, she sat in the shadow. Hoping he wouldn’t dump her for his secretary when he got to the top of his pyramid.

I am not a feminist. But I have seen traditional men use their mentality to victimize women on many occasions. And to say Satan is pleased when a woman has a job is ludicrous.

The traditional nuclear family was damaged by MEN who invented birth control pills so they could use women as sex objects without any repurcussions.

The traditional nuclear family was damaged by MEN who passed laws allowing the unmitigated slaughter of the unborn.

The traditional nuclear family was damaged by MEN who passed laws allowing for no-fault divorce so they could walk away from wives with their wallets intact.

My traditional nuclear family was damaged by a MAN who walked away. And my being a traditional wife and SAHM didn’t save me. But it made me a financial victim who had to find a way very quickly to feed and house three young children with over ten years of empty space on my employment record.

It would be funny if every mother that worked stayed home for a day. Some of these gentlemen would be surprised at the schools that had no teachers, the hospitals left without nurses and doctors, the stores left without clerks, the offices left without workers. And don’t say those jobs can be quickly filled by willing men.

We really aren’t doing Satan’s work.

 

[rpp]

I think our society has changed in a way that has not allowed women to work and have families. Long ago there were family businesses that allowed a talented woman to earn a living and assist her husband. While there is no job more taxing and taking more innovation and intelligence than forming the identities and talents of their children, not every woman is given children. Not every woman has the luxury of staying home. And why would God give a woman a tremendous talent and then have her hide it under a bushel basket?

I think the pendulum is swinging back and women are finding ways to combine motherhood and the use of their talents so they actually have a career to return to once the children are grown.
Women working from home has changed the notion that a woman’s only dignity came from producing children and raising them. As if she stopped counting as a person and her talents stopped counting once she got a husband. And while he grew in prestige and success, she sat in the shadow. Hoping he wouldn’t dump her for his secretary when he got to the top of his pyramid.

I am not a feminist. But I have seen traditional men use their mentality to victimize women on many occasions. And to say Satan is pleased when a woman has a job is ludicrous.

The traditional nuclear family was damaged by MEN who invented birth control pills so they could use women as sex objects without any repurcussions.

The traditional nuclear family was damaged by MEN who passed laws allowing the unmitigated slaughter of the unborn.

The traditional nuclear family was damaged by MEN who passed laws allowing for no-fault divorce so they could walk away from wives with their wallets intact.

My traditional nuclear family was damaged by a MAN who walked away. And my being a traditional wife and SAHM didn’t save me. But it made me a financial victim who had to find a way very quickly to feed and house three young children with over ten years of empty space on my employment record.

It would be funny if every mother that worked stayed home for a day. Some of these gentlemen would be surprised at the schools that had no teachers, the hospitals left without nurses and doctors, the stores left without clerks, the offices left without workers. And don’t say those jobs can be quickly filled by willing men.

We really aren’t doing Satan’s work.

Such a misandrist post is sad to see. It is good to not that women are not responsible to this huh? Neo feminists have had no impact on the family, eh?

For my part, I will not draw a circle around 1/2 the population of the planet and blame them for my personal woes.