Is God a Controller of the Universe?

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Why do you bother quoting me if you think my ‘bombastic nonsense’ is not worth reading, empther? Why do you even bother ‘countering’ this bombastic nonsense?

Nor did you knowingly create your son and his car from nothing (not directly, but through some intremedeiate causes), so why you think this analogy has any sort of relevance to what I said is beyond me.
God, creating me and you from nothing means that God either determined everything we will ever do, or that some actions have no explanantion at all.
If the first is true, then there is not even a hint of libertarian free will. if the second is true, our thoughts and actions are partly the result of how we were created and partly the result of purely random processes.
In neither case are we in any way responsible for anything, good or bad.

**( Notice that belorg doesn’t use the words “enable” and “determine” because that would make it plain that he’s trying to equate two unequal things. **

How would anybody ‘notice’ that without reading my ‘bombastic nonsense’, empther?
Do they just have to take your word on it?.
FYI, apparently you hacen’t read my bombastic nonsense either because, while I admit I did not use the word ‘enable’ (and for good reasons, because Aristotle’s deist God may merely enable things, the Christian God most certainly is believed to do a whole lot more) but I most certainly did use the word ‘determine.’
Seeing where this going and already know your fundamentals, I’ll just jump a few dozen pages and ask you to explain why would a timeless being, in which reason demands that time is contingent from a timeless source, is restricted to time once the act of creation takes place?
 
The universe is out of divine control in exact proportion to the extent that this planet is controlled by:
  1. Human beings
  2. Other planets controlled by rational beings (if they exist)
  3. The laws of nature (which are suspended when God intervenes)
 
belorg blabbered:
God, creating me and you from nothing means that God either determined everything we will ever do, or that some actions have no explanantion at all.
Why would God’s creation of us also determine everything we ever did? There is no connection between the two events. You haven’t even tried to explain a connection because you can’t.

Out actions do have an explanation. We have free will.
 
Seeing where this going and already know your fundamentals, I’ll just jump a few dozen pages and ask you to explain why would a timeless being, in which reason demands that time is contingent from a timeless source, is restricted to time once the act of creation takes place?
I haven’t got the slightest idea why this would have any relevance to anything I said, but I’ll try to answer your question anyway.
A timeless being would be restricted to time
beacue once time is in place, there is no such thing as ‘timelessness’ anymore.
 
Why would God’s creation of us also determine everything we ever did? There is no connection between the two events. You haven’t even tried to explain a connection because you can’t.
Well, since you obviously haven’t read my ‘bombastic nonsense’ I won’t bother trying to explain it. The explanation is in my bombastic nonsense.
Our actions do have an explanation. We have free will.
How do you explain the fact that I use my ‘free will’ differently than you?
 
I haven’t got the slightest idea why this would have any relevance to anything I said, but I’ll try to answer your question anyway.
A timeless being would be restricted to time
beacue once time is in place, there is no such thing as ‘timelessness’ anymore.
A timeless being is outside of the spacetime. The timelessness is still valid for the being.
The time is limiting factor for all creations inside of the spacetime.
 
NO!. It’s enabling, but not determining or even influencing.

See my last post. #16
Okay, in looking at this part
**You lend your car to your son for the evening. You hope he gets home safely. But if he gets drunk and causes an accident killing himself and 87 other people, you’re not responsible. You enabled. You didn’t determine. **
I think that sufficiently answers the question I asked on semantics.

Though in real life while one might not be held responsible for the accident one could still have liabilities for it. But I won’t go further down that trail (for now) as it raises some potential discussion points that could derail the conversation.
 
belorg has definitely lost it! 👍
Quote:
Originally Posted by empther
forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Why would God’s creation of us also determine everything we ever did? There is no connection between the two events. You haven’t even tried to explain a connection because you can’t.

Well, since you obviously haven’t read my ‘bombastic nonsense’ I won’t bother trying to explain it. The explanation is in my bombastic nonsense.

:rotfl: :rotfl::extrahappy:
Quote:
Our actions do have an explanation. We have free will.
How do you explain the fact that I use my ‘free will’ differently than you?

Simple. You have free will.

:rotfl::rotfl::extrahappy:
 
A timeless being is outside of the spacetime. The timelessness is still valid for the being.
The time is limiting factor for all creations inside of the spacetime.
If the timelessness is valid for the being, then said being cannot influence time once time is around.
That’s actually one of the reasons why Ariistotle’s God is a deist God.
 
If the timelessness is valid for the being, then said being cannot influence time once time is around.
That’s actually one of the reasons why Ariistotle’s God is a deist God.
Are there any writings on this proposition that I, or others, can read to understand the entirety of this point?

Reason why I brought this up is because it seemed to be the reason why you gravitate to a Calvinistic-like stance, because the reasons why Calvinists do are illogical to begin with. As I see your stance, correct me if I’m wrong, if God has foreknowledge then it is only by determinism for He is bound to time once time began and cannot know what is to be for he is no longer outside of time. Proper understanding of eternity and pure act would void this argument but once again, I may be mistaken of why you side with determinism.
 
Are there any writings on this proposition that I, or others, can read to understand the entirety of this point?
This is a logical consequence of the Aristotelean (and Thomist) concept of God as a-temporal and unchanging. Once time is set in motion, the only way to influence anything in time would be by changing your mind; something an unchanging being by definition cannot do.
Reason why I brought this up is because it seemed to be the reason why you gravitate to a Calvinistic-like stance,
I am not gravitating to a calvinistic-like stance. I am telling you that your position of a God controlling everything through ‘intermediate causes’ leads to a Calvinistic stance.
because the reasons why Calvinists do are illogical to begin with.
You should take that up with Calvinists.
As I see your stance, correct me if I’m wrong, if God has foreknowledge then it is only by determinism for He is bound to time once time began and cannot know what is to be for he is no longer outside of time.
No, that is not my stance. I am not even talking about foreknowledge here.
Proper understanding of eternity and pure act would void this argument but once again, I may be mistaken of why you side with determinism.
Proper understanding of eternity and pure act inevitably leads to an Aristotelean deist God.
 
Correction:

The universe is out of divine control in exact proportion to the extent that:
  1. This planet is controlled by human beings
  2. Other planets are controlled by rational beings
  3. The universe is controlled by the laws of nature
 
If the timelessness is valid for the being, then said being cannot influence time once time is around.
That’s actually one of the reasons why Ariistotle’s God is a deist God.
Why not? God is creator of the timespace. As the Creator he can influence His creation.
What would be your foundation of the statement that it’s not possible?
 
This is a logical consequence of the Aristotelean (and Thomist) concept of God as a-temporal and unchanging. Once time is set in motion, the only way to influence anything in time would be by changing your mind; something an unchanging being by definition cannot do.
Not true. From God’s point of view He knows movement of the whole universe and everything what is in it from the beginning of the time till its end. He is not changing anything. He is not changing His mind.

It’s a different story from our human point of view. We are limited by spacetime.
 
Not true. From God’s point of view He knows movement of the whole universe and everything what is in it from the beginning of the time till its end. He is not changing anything. He is not changing His mind.
I do not think you realize this, Jaaanosik, but you are in fact saying exactly the same thing as I. The universe what it is at creation and will never be any different. So God is in total control of everything. God set the whole universe in motion and can rest on His two ears for eternity. As I said, a deist God.
It’s a different story from our human point of view. We are limited by spacetime.
Yes, we experience the universe as changing and we experience ‘free will’, but that’s because we are limited by spacetime.
 
I do not think you realize this, Jaaanosik, but you are in fact saying exactly the same thing as I. The universe what it is at creation and will never be any different. So God is in total control of everything. God set the whole universe in motion and can rest on His two ears for eternity. As I said, a deist God.
Not exactly. God sustains the universe in being. It does not exist by its own power.
 
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