Is God a moral monster?

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Eaglejet23

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Okay, so one thing my non-believing friends challenge me with is God’s morality specifically in the old testament. The most common objection is God has killed billions while Satan killed only 10. Another would be how Jesus pushed a kid off a roof but that’s the gospel of Thomas so this objection fails. My question to anyone who reads is why was God justified to kill so many whether using scripture, background knowledge of the culture, interpretations, or philosophy. God bless.

Also, any books that explain goes over this would be nice to know.
 
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God didn’t kill billions in the OT, and life belongs to God. He can take it when He wills and it is good. There is nothing remotely immoral in the OT.
 
He holds to the view that God can’t do anything after the creation of the world. Though this is an interesting take.
 
avemariagratiaplena said:
There is nothing remotely immoral in the OT.
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That’s actually a good point. I’m wondering what the OP’s friend judges as the basis of morality, if said friend does not believe in God, or believe that God is a “moral monster”.
 
That would be deism, and there’s not really an historical background to that until about the (misnamed) Enlightenment
 
His question would be why would God is the essence of morality?
 
Eaglejet23 said:
He holds to the view that God can’t do anything after the creation of the world.
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So he says that, but he also says “God killed people after the creation”?

By the way, if your friend is a determinist, you could tell him: When God wills it, nature’s laws are overcome. God is free to do anything (including suspending His laws) because He’s sovereign to them.
 
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Eaglejet23 said:
Okay, so one thing my nonbelieving friends challenge me with is God’s morality specifically in the old testament. The most common objection is God has killed billions while Satan killed only 10. Another would be how Jesus pushed a kid off a roof but that’s the gospel of Thomas so this objection fails. My question to anyone who reads is why was God justified to kill so many whether using scripture, background knowledge of the culture, interpretations, or philosophy. God bless.
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Satan is a liar. God is truthful and the author of life and gives eternal life. Considering only the short term is futile.

Job 1
21 And said: Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: as it hath pleased the Lord so is it done: blessed be the name of the Lord.
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Isaiah 45
6 That they may know who are from the rising of the sun, and they who are from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is none else:
7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
8 Drop down dew, ye heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain the just: let the earth be opened, and bud forth a saviour: and let justice spring up together: I the Lord have created him.
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He has no interest in religion so I have to be more knowledgeable to compensate.
 
Eaglejet23 said:
My question to anyone who reads is why was God justified to kill so many whether using scripture, background knowledge of the culture, interpretations, or philosophy. God bless.
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Perhaps consider farming.
When one wants to grow/develop a particular crop from seeds, there is a time to destroy all vegetation to prepare the area, there is a time to allow weeds to grow among crops, there is a time to collect the harvest and rid of the weeds.

God is developing us into something greater than we are. Since some of us choose to be developed into the greater being God is calling us to be, and others of us choose not to be developed. There is a time to rid of those who choose not become the greatness they are called to be.
 
Eaglejet23 said:
The most common objection is God has killed billions while Satan killed only 10.
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Okay, first of all, there was no concept or word for “billion” in the Bible day’s.

I’m afraid the people who run around chanting “God is mean” aren’t looking at the entire Bible as a coherent whole.

The same God who passed judgement and commanded certain people to be put to death, later turns around, takes on our humanity and allows Himself to be subjected to the judgement (and death) at the hands of humans.

Hardly the portrait of an evil puppet master.

On a side note, does your atheist friend believe abortion should be legal?
See, that’s a trap, because of he does believe it should be legal, then he’s revealed himself to be a hypocrite treating himself to a hissy-fit.
 
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He would believe in proportionalism so he views that abortion should be legal be for rape and for the women’s health. He also believes it should be legal to advance the sciences.
 
Eaglejet23 said:
He would believe in proportionalism so he views that abortion should be legal be for rape and for the women’s health.
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Ahh. So he gets to decide who lives and who dies but how dare the Creator of the Universe make those determinations.

That’s the part where this person loses all credibility for me.
 
*Is God Arbitrary or does he give reasons for judging people in the old testament?
He gives reasons. He doesn’t just wake up one morning like a mob boss and go “Canaanites, I want them dead!” He’s got reasons. The biggest reason after 400 years of warning is that that the Canaanites were sacrificing their children for the idol-god known as Molech. They would heat up an idol of Molech until it was molten hot and place their children onto the arms of it and watch them sizzle to death.

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In fact the Greek Plutarch wrote that the villagers would beat their drums louder so the parents wouldn’t hear the screams of their own children being sacrificed.

I don’t think anyone would care to shed a tear for the destruction of the Canaanite culture and religion. Good riddance.

*Is God committing murder by ending lives on Earth?
When somebody dies does God murder them? God can’t murder anyone because he is the creator of life. So when he takes life that’s up to him! He can resurrect life. We can’t do that so we don’t have the authority to take life but God does. So if God wants take somebody’s life he can. He might explain the reason or he might not. Either way he has the authority to do that. God has the right to usher people into the next life whether they are 2 years old or 82 years old.
 
Yes it’s extremely hard to challenge when he holds to a untraditional belief in God. I just wish I was better at pointing this things out.
 
I kind of get where your nonbeliever friend sees dissonance, in that ‘thou shall not murder’ and whoosh–there go all male babies under two, whoosh–there’s the sea crashing down upon armies, and so on. But to understand scripture, it must be considered as a whole and in context, in keeping with the time during which it was written. We have this propensity to look at the past through the lenses of contemporary morality and reason. Right now, we’re in a ‘cancel culture’ wherein many are trying to erase history and harshly judge those who lived in completely different circumstances. Colonisation…now we understand the horror it can create for indigenous people. In Europe, there are centuries of marching in, taking land for one’s country whilst killing or raping everyone who was there…later that country marches over to take land back… So we look at the OT and see what we now understand to be bad things but we’re looking through contemporary lenses.

Also, God is in charge of His creation, and that is something accepted on faith. Ultimately, do you believe God is a Loving Father, Saviour Son, and Holy Spirit? Books like Mere Christianity (CS Lewis) lay out the reasoning of the faith better than I could hope to, but I think it all comes down to faith.
 
Eaglejet23 said:
Also, any books that explain goes over this would be nice to know.
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Actually, there is literally a book with the title “Is God a Moral Monster?” by Paul Copan that covers this–when I saw this topic title, I thought it was about the book! God Behaving Badly by David Lamb covers similar ground. I haven’t personally read them so I can’t really attest to their quality, but I have seen others suggest them.

This site has some good information also, though it’s sort of scattered throughout so I can’t really link to any specific pages. But if there’s a specific passage you have questions about you could look over to their passage index and see if there’s a note they have on it (in the “By Passage” drop-down menu under the “Browse Articles” on the left).
 
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