Is God Above Logic?

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My impression, from books such as Peter Kreeft’s Socratic dialogues, that Catholics generally hold that God is logical. That things that seem to be contradictions, like Christ’s divine humanity, are in fact logical in ways we cannot fully understand.
However, an Eastern Orthodox acquaintance of mine recently challenged this assumption, and as it is just that, an assumption, I am unsure what to say. I don’t believe there is any dogma on the issue?
 
It honestly sounds more like an argument about the definition of words to be perfectly honest. Are not both positions that God is beyond human comprehension? I think Peter Kreeft is simply arguing that it is still logical even though we cannot comprehend, and your Orthodox friend is thinking solely in terms of human intellect?
 
Thank you for your reply, but no, we’ve addressed that. He thinks that, since we know we will ever know about God here on earth for the time being, we know all logical truths there are about God. In other words, that everything about God we cannot explain is not logical, or “above logic” as he puts it.
Apparently this is a commonly held Eastern Orthodox view. He directed me to Orthodox podcasts and such saying the same
 
My impression, from books such as Peter Kreeft’s Socratic dialogues, that Catholics generally hold that God is logical. That things that seem to be contradictions, like Christ’s divine humanity, are in fact logical in ways we cannot fully understand.
Logic is just the scientific way by which we examine human thought. To say that God is “logical” is just to say that God is consistent with what is True. God IS truth, so necessarily God would not do anything contrary to what we would consider “logical”. That’s not to say that God will not do something that we may not understand according to our limited ability to analyze something logically. But that in no way means that it is illogical, but rather may just be paradoxical.

The hypostatic union of Christ is a paradox. Paradoxes are not necessarily contradictions.

Contradictions are senseless, they have no purpose. But we know that everything that God does, does have a purpose.
However, an Eastern Orthodox acquaintance of mine recently challenged this assumption, and as it is just that, an assumption, I am unsure what to say. I don’t believe there is any dogma on the issue?
EO’s as a matter of principle mistrust any such logical examination that is common among us in the West. The emphasis in the EO tradition is on the mystery of the Christian Faith. It seems that they believe that such analysis takes away the effect of the mystery.

But I may be wrong in this. I’m simply going by what I have read of other EO’s.
 
You should give Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s ‘Regensburg Address’ a read, it’s an invaluable source. It’s pretty easily available online. Nothing else to add, the other contributions are excellent. 👍
 
My impression, from books such as Peter Kreeft’s Socratic dialogues, that Catholics generally hold that God is logical. That things that seem to be contradictions, like Christ’s divine humanity, are in fact logical in ways we cannot fully understand.
However, an Eastern Orthodox acquaintance of mine recently challenged this assumption, and as it is just that, an assumption, I am unsure what to say. I don’t believe there is any dogma on the issue?
“Logic” refers to the limits of human reasoning. What is “valid” according to logic is what can be understood as “logic.”

People often don’t realize that when we ask if God is logical, we are falling into the trap of demanding God to submit to the limits of what we as humans recognize as logic.

To demand that a transcendent God be limited by logic or anything at all is, in itself, an illogical statement to begin with. (“You’re limited to the limits I set and to things I can conceive and accept, okay God?”)

When Someone (or something) is not limited to time and space, how can we say that what we witness from this Someone is ever contradictory? Unless we know exactly what constitutes “reasonableness” or “normalcy” in transcendent eternity we cannot charge God with being unreasonable or contradicting. We can only make such charges to persons and things limited to certain laws and rules that we know about and can understand (and that would, if one follows such logic, not include God).

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am quite certain there are no dogmas on this issue. A dogma stating that God cannot be held to dogma would be moot—and silly.
 
The root of this difference that you point out is actually serious philosophical difference between Catholics and Orthodox Christians, and one that will have to be worked out in order for reunion to occur (assuming it will). Look up the essence-energies division for my point.

Catholics, in line with Thomas Aquinas, have held that God is actus purus, that is indivisible. This does not mean a denial of the Trinity - each person of the Trinity is distinct from the Others, but each Person is indivisible. The Orthodox generally hold, in accordance, with Gregory Palamas, that it is necessary to distinguish between God’s essence, or God in Himself, and God’s energies, the Revelation of God. According to Gregory Palamas, God, as He is, can never be known, but we can know Him in way He has chosen to reveal Himself. This distinction is not only virtual, that is from, our perspective, but real. This teaching has been accepted by the Orthodox since his time.

The Catholic Church has always condemned this as an error. While recognizing the good intention of hesychasm, a form of monasticism strongly dependent on this teaching, the Church nevertheless maintains that such a distinction is seriously erroneous. To say that God is divisible in such a manner is grossly inappropriate. We believe that God can neither deceive nor be deceived.

Now what does this have to do with your question? Well, it given this distinction between essence and energies that your Orthodox friend at least presumably holds, it is not surprising that He view logic as part of “God revealed”, but view “God Himself” as above and distinct in reality from logic. The Catholic will hold that God is not “higher” than logic, since logic and order are ‘part’ of His pure essence of love (like I said, God cannot be divided, but order presumes care, and care presumes love).

St. Augustine has a very interesting quote which you might find helpful: “If there is anything above truth, it is God; if not, than God is truth”.

I hope this was helpful,
Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas
 
“Logic” refers to the limits of human reasoning. What is “valid” according to logic is what can be understood as “logic.”

People often don’t realize that when we ask if God is logical, we are falling into the trap of demanding God to submit to the limits of what we as humans recognize as logic.

To demand that a transcendent God be limited by logic or anything at all is, in itself, an illogical statement to begin with. (“You’re limited to the limits I set and to things I can conceive and accept, okay God?”)

When Someone (or something) is not limited to time and space, how can we say that what we witness from this Someone is ever contradictory? Unless we know exactly what constitutes “reasonableness” or “normalcy” in transcendent eternity we cannot charge God with being unreasonable or contradicting. We can only make such charges to persons and things limited to certain laws and rules that we know about and can understand (and that would, if one follows such logic, not include God).
Hello Delson, I was wondering if you could clarify a few points of your response for me, as I’m curious. First, why do you suppose that logic is primarily concerned with the limits
of human reason? Traditionally, it’s defined as the art or science of right reasoning. Further, it would appear that the limits are not something inherent in logic, which is a system of objective structures and forms which man discovers in rational thought, but rather man reaches limits because his rationality may only extend so far in its efforts. What do you think of this possibility?

Next, it’s unclear to me that asking if God is logical is truly demanding that He submit to an inferior system. Logic is not something man-made, like traffic laws, but is a universal system of structures to which man may or may not adhere in reasoning. That said, if man chooses not to adhere to those laws, he ends up hopelessly lost in his efforts to reason. May I ask, is God truly limitless, do you think? Is He so utterly transcendent that He is bound by nothing? I submit that God recognizes logic far more readily than man does- indeed, God is limited by His very nature, He does not need man to impose false demands upon His being. God’s nature limits Him, to clarify that last sentence. For example, God is Truth, thus God cannot deceive. God is Good and Love, and thus cannot but love His creatures and will their Good, which is to glorify Him. It would be a mistake to exalt the transcendence of God over His rationality, because then we have a capricious God who is not bound by anything. God could, then, very well order us tomorrow to commit idolatry, and we would be obligated to do so because He said so.

We can certainly speak of things that are contradictory outside of space and time- there are things which are logically contradictory outside the temporal order. For example, we must either accept that God loves all His creatures, or does not love them all- there is not a third option. Either x, or non-x. The beautiful thing about the first principles of Aristotelian (and all) logic is that they apply to all things at all times. It has always been true, and will always be true, that if no angels are men, and I am a man, then I am not an angel. Why exactly do you think that “Unless we know exactly what constitutes “reasonableness” or “normalcy” in transcendent eternity we cannot charge God with being unreasonable or contradicting. We can only make such charges to persons and things limited to certain laws and rules that we know about and can understand (and that would, if one follows such logic, not include God)”?

I look forward to your reply!

In Christ,
Nick
 
…I look forward to your reply!

In Christ,
Nick
“Logic” as I was speaking of in my post refers to the “philosophical” and “vernacular” forms which often attempt to make God fit standards (and limits) set by human reasoning. The definition of “logic” can be very subjective, and thus I can only offer that my answer fit this form (and thus may not be “logic” as you are defining it).

God is rarely spoken of by the Church in connection with the subject of logic. But one of the few times logic has been the subject of discussion in religion was in the work of St. Augustine of Hippo (which is how I was using the term as well). He wrote:

The science of reasoning is of very great service in searching into and unraveling all sorts of questions that come up in Scripture, only in the use of it we must guard against the love of wrangling and the childish vanity of entrapping an adversary.–On Christian Doctrine II, 48.

Outside of this type of logic Augustine also acknowledges that there was more to “logic” than the logic of arguments and reasoning. There was also the non-philosophical logic of science, but he did not presume to suggest that God was subject to what can be learned through this methodology.

While you ask very good questions—many of which I have asked myself—there are very few definitive doctrinal answers for them. Your answers to these questions would therefore be just as good if not better than mine as I don’t presume to offer opinion when I write things on this forum.

I try to stay as subjective as possible by repeating, citing, and/or quoting Church authority and Her official teachings. My own feelings and views could never be the basis of giving an answer that was truly valid and helpful. This way I can offer a “truth” that I may still be working on fully appreciating or accepting without adding my “personal baggage” to cloud things.

Along these lines I can only offer the following, that God is not “limited by his nature,” as you put it. God is the definitive and infinite reality of his attributes. It isn’t that God cannot lie, it is that God is so much the perfect embodiment of good or justice that he doesn’t. Love, as defined by God, is so benevolent, and his wisdom so unending, that God only offers that which is true.–CCC 40-43.

That is why God “cannot” lie. It isn’t because he’s incapable or limited by this “rule.” It’s because he is Truth. And there is no darkness or falsehood in that which is Light and True. “God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.”–1 John 1:5.

As it is written elsewhere in Scripture:

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.–John 14:6

What came to be
through him was life,
and this life was the light of humanity;
this light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness has not overcome it.–John 1:3-5.
 
Yes, the definition of logic can be subjective, but ought not to be. Until we’re able to furnish a better definition than “the art or science of right reasoning”, we ought not to adopt a different definition because it seems to be most close to the true understanding of logic. The truth is this: when the intellect reasons correctly, it aims at and achieves understanding of the truth, which is the good of all intellects, via logic. The thing that is important is that we come to the objective definition of logic, not butt heads with subjective definitions, or else neither of us can really be sure if what the other is saying is actually the case.

Moreover, what exactly do you mean by ‘logic of science’? Logic, strictly speaking, is the art or science of right reasoning. Anything that is true must be logical, even if we don’t understand why. But I’m not suggesting that God is subject to the methodology of natural sciences.

Let me clear something up first, as I realize that what I said is imprecise- when I speak of God as being “limited” by His nature, perhaps a better word is “restricted”. I am not presuming to say that God is “subject to what can be learned through this methodology”, but that God is logical by His very essence as Truth, for example. In Truth there can be no falsity, no contradiction. Once more, I am not saying that God is subject to anything created, but rather saying that God is only subject to things or bound by things inasmuch as they are a part of Himself. As such, I’m saying that God is logical not because He must conform to some outer standard of logic, but that the determining standard of Truth and Logic is God and, because He is so, He cannot be anything but Truthful and Logical.

Now when you say that “it isn’t that God cannot lie… [it is] that He doesn’t”, may I ask what you mean by that? Are you saying that God could choose to do otherwise, but doesn’t because He is so good? Or do you mean that God does not do these things (lie, etc.) because He never could? I feel like we are saying the same thing, even though I was not as precise as I ought to have been earlier, when you say that “That is why God ‘cannot’ lie… it’s because he is Truth.” So if you could please clear up my confusion about what you have said, as I expressed in my question earlier in the paragraph, I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks for your reply, I’m enjoying this immensely!

In Christ,
Nick
 
Hi Pound Coolish,

In the Western Church, logic is not something above God, partly because logic is abstract and abstract objects don’t stand in causal relations. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, God’s being omnipotent means that he can do whatever is logically possible. So, his “inability” to create a square-circle (a logical impossibility) has no bearing on God’s omnipotence.

Usually when we say that one entity is “above” another, we mean that it has greater power, but logic has no power for the reason mentioned above. Therefore, I think it would be inappropriate to say that logic is above God. In fact, if conceptualism is true, then logic is actually dependent on God as a divine mental concept (but not as something caused).
 
Hi Pound Coolish,

In fact, if conceptualism is true, then logic is actually dependent on God as a divine mental concept (but not as something caused).
If conceptualism is true, then is logic is dependent on the logically functioning mind of God?
 
If conceptualism is true, then is logic is dependent on the logically functioning mind of God?
I’m not sure I understand the question, belorg. Could you restate it? The way you have it phrased seems identical to my claim that if conceptualism is true, then logic is dependent on God. Logic would exist as a mental concept in the divine mind.
 
Moreover, what exactly do you mean by ‘logic of science’?..

Now when you say that “it isn’t that God cannot lie… [it is] that He doesn’t”, may I ask what you mean by that? Are you saying that God could choose to do otherwise, but doesn’t because He is so good? Or do you mean that God does not do these things (lie, etc.) because He never could? I feel like we are saying the same thing, even though I was not as precise as I ought to have been earlier, when you say that “That is why God ‘cannot’ lie… it’s because he is Truth.” So if you could please clear up my confusion about what you have said, as I expressed in my question earlier in the paragraph, I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks for your reply, I’m enjoying this immensely!

In Christ,
Nick
Hi Nick. God’s blessing to you in this New Year!

As to your first question regarding the “logic of science:” I’m a scientist. As such I have performed many experiments in my day. There is a “logic” that is followed (and even produced) by the methodology itself when one does so. The term as I used it doesn’t mean anything more than that.

Some people confuse science, which is a methodology, with logic itself, and even use the terms interchangeably. It’s not entirely incorrect, just more of a “clouding up” of things for some of us when that happens.

There are two main facets of “logic,” namely the philosophical and the school of the study of human reasoning (or a branch thereof). With the latter you end up with things like mathematical and computational logic which are used in science itself, and therefore in the vernacular the two get mixed up in our proverbial basket of fruit. All of it is fruit to be sure, but there is a big difference between biting into an apple and when one bites into a lemon.

It is this second type I referred to in the phrase “logic of science.”

As for your second question, you are correct. We are saying basically the same thing. I was speaking a little bit more in the terms of the original Biblical language expressions which come from a Semitic culture. I’m of Jewish ancestry, and as we read right to left, we also reason differently when it comes to speaking of good and evil. This “logic” is found in Scripture as a result, even in the Greek Scriptures.

To illustrate: St. Luke stumbles to get the salutation of the angel Gabriel correct in the Greek when he wrote what is now Luke 1:28. The Hellenistic world (as well as our Western culture) did not have a way to express what Mary heard from the angel. Likely speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic, the angel said: “Salutations, you who have been filled up with grace” or even “O you favored with grace.” Luke even invented a Greek word that doesn’t appear anywhere in any other extant literature, and today the expression makes for constant controversy.

The reason? It is because in the world of the Hebrews (in fact in all the Semitic world) people are seen as vessels, like a gas tank if you will. They don’t possess a quality in the negative like “sinless” or “ageless” or “selfless.” Instead of having “less” or none of the quality, the languages used say they are “full” of the opposite.

Instead of “selfless” the person is “rich in giving.” One is not “ageless,” they are “eternal.” And Mary is not called “sinless,” she is called “full of grace.” Like a gas tank, if it is full it cannot receive anymore fuel. The same with a person. If they are full of a quality, the Semitic logic sees this as incapable of having any other.

So while we are saying the same thing, I tend to say things using the Semitic formula found in Biblical syntax. It isn’t that God is limited by some force to keep him from lying. It is that God is “full of grace and truth,” (John 1:14) and therefore there is no lying that comes from God. Lying is impossible when you don’t possess falsehood. Without a lie in your heart, being full of truth, you cannot lie. Get it?

Sorry for the winded pontification.
 
Your question is slightly ambiguous, but hopefully this covers everything:
  1. The Principle of Non-Contradiction applies to all reality, including God. (The PNC is: “A and not-A cannot both be true at the same time and in the same way.”)
  2. God does not use logic like we do. When we think, there are three types of mental actions: simple apprehension, judgement, and deductive inference. The human mind can grasp some truths that are not readily apparent to it, e.g. binomial theorem. Not so with angels and God. They don’t need to reason to conclusions, but rather grasp truths immediately. The difference is that angles don’t know all truths and God does.
With reference to (1), I like Chesterton’s quote from the Fr. Brown story, The Blue Cross:
“Ah, yes, these modern infidels appeal to their reason; but who can look at those millions of worlds and not feel that there may well be wonderful universes above us where reason is utterly unreasonable?”
“No,” said the other priest; “reason is always reasonable, even in the last limbo, in the lost borderland of things. I know that people charge the Church with lowering reason, but it is just the other way. Alone on earth, the Church makes reason really supreme. Alone on earth, the Church affirms that God himself is bound by reason.”
The other priest raised his austere face to the spangled sky and said:
“Yet who knows if in that infinite universe–?”
“Only infinite physically,” said the little priest, turning sharply in his seat, “not infinite in the sense of escaping from the laws of truth.”
Valentin behind his tree was tearing his fingernails with silent fury. He seemed almost to hear the sniggers of the English detectives whom he had brought so far on a fantastic guess only to listen to the metaphysical gossip of two mild old parsons. In his impatience he lost the equally elaborate answer of the tall cleric, and when he listened again it was again Father Brown who was speaking:
“Reason and justice grip the remotest and the loneliest star. Look at those stars. Don’t they look as if they were single diamonds and sapphires? Well, you can imagine any mad botany or geology you please. Think of forests of adamant with leaves of brilliants. Think the moon is a blue moon, a single elephantine sapphire. But don’t fancy that all that frantic astronomy would make the smallest difference to the reason and justice of conduct. On plains of opal, under cliffs cut out of pearl, you would still find a notice-board, `Thou shalt not steal.’”
 
I’m not sure I understand the question, belorg. Could you restate it? The way you have it phrased seems identical to my claim that if conceptualism is true, then logic is dependent on God. Logic would exist as a mental concept in the divine mind.
Does God’s mind function logically or not?
 
Why does it function logically?
God’s mind can be said to function logically because God is the epitome and origin of all that is logical.

Logic as we know it is but a reflection of a perfection of God that the Almighty possesses. Because God is all-knowing and the origin of all things, all that there is to know is dependent on the Origin of all that can be conceived. When it comes to what is and what is not logical, God is the ultimate measure.

One cannot be logical about something that does not exist. and all that exists owes its existence to God. Scriptures teaches authoritatively this as a fact when it states:

All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing came to be.–John 1:3.

God possesses all reasonableness and logic in what the Church calls an “infinitely perfect” state. By saying this, the Catholic Church teaches that God possesses this perfection without limit.
 
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