Is God Against Reason?

[Thomas_White]

Why did God give us intellect if we are supposed to always do what He says? What is the point of having wisdom, the fruit of experiences, if we are supposed to follow a normal routine? God doesn’t do vain.

God provided mankind with free will and reason so that he would have the freedom of choice to do good or to do evil.

 

[ffg]

Yes. But you need the knowledge of evil or wrong in the first place to avoid eating the fruit. That was something they didn’t have since they haven’t yet eaten the fruit so they should be blamed.

You are skipping step 1.

First comes instruction. let’s look at it specifically -

Gen 2:16-17
16 The LORD God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17 except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.

From this instruction, specifically from God (foundation of truth), the human with the gift of reason, can determine what is right and what is wrong with no room for confusion.

The consequence (to die) of the act of the disobedience, evil, is not necessary to be **understood** before taking the disobey action. 

In disobedience being the FIRST sin, it seems all more likely that they would be clueless as to what exactly God meant.

If mortality wasn't a 'thing' yet, the humans couldn't have known it.

Then in Chapter 3, since there was disobedience, God details the consequence(s) (mortality being one).

 

[ffg]

Supposedly Adam and Eve had no idea that they were naked, had never before encountered deception or guile, yet were somehow supposed to be aware of “stranger danger”. While what you describe is in a way common sense, there is a better term for it: savvy. Why do we ingrain it into our kids to not take candy from strangers or take rides from them? Because they are not born with the savvy that there are people that want to hurt them. Most glaring of all we don’t punish children who fall victim to another’s machinations, especially when it’s all new to them.

I don’t see anywhere in chapters 1 and 2, before the snake (temptation) enters the scene in chapter 3, that says anything about being aware of evil (stranger danger).

Sly, sinister, cunning are only so because the audience is unknowing of intent.

We can ingrain all we want, inclusive of full sheltering, but our children still don’t necessarily understand ‘why’ (see the consequence).

It takes faith to obey a parent and not reach for that candy.

There is no ‘victimhood’ of the first parents that covers for their disobedience. Their sin is theirs.

Very important distinction:

Remember, the use of a snake is specific, it’s not meant to be ‘another human’, it symbolizes temptation. Something we all have poking at us all the time.

They were not victims of another person, they are humans acting with freedom on temptation without understanding the consequence.

Quite similar to good parenting, they were punished for their disobedience, not the temptation.

It’s important to see the difference vs. another human attacking our children.

Another puzzle piece is obviously a source for our temptation to disobey, but that source (creature) is also punished in chapter 3.

A cautionary tale for those seeking to sway the mind of a human away from a relationship with God.

 

[STT]

We were made in His image and likeness, endowed with free will and reasoning ability.

Because we are endowed with free will and reason and given God’s laws, we need the ability to use our reasoning based on our own experiences as well as observation of other’s experiences to make the choice to follow God’s laws.

As a parent, I would be extremely gratified if my children blindly accepted my ethical teachings but used their God given intellect and reasoning to become great doctors, scientists, writers or whatever have you. However, they will at points have to use their reasoning when faced with moral and ethical choices in the course of their work, never mind outside of it.

Without reason and intellect we would not be images of God; we could not have dominion over the earth and animals; we would not have the ability to search for God through science, prayer, etc. In other words, without free will and reasoning there would have been no point for mankind.

But you need experience in order to gain wisdom. How Adam and Eve could possibly gain wisdom if they have just followed the instruction given by God?

 

[STT]

There’s no such thing as “a normal routine”! No one is ever in precisely the same circumstances every moment of the day, every day, every week, every month and every year. Nor does everyone have precisely the same talents, abilities, opportunities, responsibilities and obligations. There is an incredible amount of richness and variety in even the apparently most ordinary life given the power of our intelligence and imagination. Even apparently doing nothing gives scope for individuality and creativity. The devil may find work for idle hands but God offers far more…Negativity leads nowhere… There’s no such thing as “a normal routine”. No one is ever in precisely the same circumstances as others every moment of the day, every day, every week, every month and every year. Nor does everyone have precisely the same talents, abilities, opportunities, responsibilities and obligations. There is an incredible amount of richness and variety in even the apparently most ordinary life given the power of our intelligence and imagination. Even apparently doing nothing gives scope for individuality and creativity. The devil may find work for idle hands but God offers far more…

We are talking about Adam and Eve. They didn’t really have anything to do, just eat, sleep and have sex. The only entertaining thing in the Garden was the tree of knowledge which they should avoid. So their lives were simple routine if they wanted to follow the instruction of God.

 

[STT]

You are skipping step 1.

First comes instruction. let’s look at it specifically -

Gen 2:16-17
16 The LORD God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17 except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.

You didn’t get my point.

From this instruction, specifically from God (foundation of truth), the human with the gift of reason, can determine what is right and what is wrong with no room for confusion.

What possibly the tree of knowledge of good and evil could grant if Human can determine what is good and evil based on reason?

The consequence (to die) of the act of the disobedience, evil, is not necessary to be understood before taking the disobey action.

But they couldn’t know that their act is evil without eating the fruit in first place.

 

[ffg]

You didn’t get my point.

What possibly the tree of knowledge of good and evil could grant if Human can determine what is good and evil based on reason?

But they couldn’t know that their act is evil without eating the fruit in first place.

I get the sense you are not really looking to understand.

Either that or you are losing context by doing so much cutting up of posts.

For your second line:

In the **allegorical** story - 

The trees are varying choices.

Thus - The need for the contra choice. The need should be self-evident in 'varying choices'. 

This indicates there is freedom for the Human.

No choice + no instruction = robot.

That is not the case.

Choice + instruction = a creation free to decide 'right or wrong'. (aka stay in relationship with God, or not)

With your last - reread my point here -

"In disobedience being the FIRST sin, it seems all more likely that they would be clueless as to what exactly God meant.

If mortality wasn’t a ‘thing’ yet, the humans couldn’t have known it.

Then in Chapter 3, since there was disobedience, God details the consequence(s) (mortality being one). "

It is not a disagreed point that they did not know they did evil.

What’s the first thing a kid (or nowadays an adult) says when they hurt another person?

It’s not ‘sorry’ - it’s a self focused shift of the blame ‘it was an accident!’ or a quick point of the finger, or as younger adults down to children are tending towards the self focused ‘my bad’.

I find it very interesting that we have to inform children that accidents are when you say you are sorry.

If you do something bad on purpose, with the expectation of a bad outcome, you are not sorry (but if you are breathing, you can always repent).

What does this mean? Consequences are RARELY understood before we act (or even after, many times. We don’t see the whole picture of our acts).

We can’t see the future, even if we make a good guess.

 

[tonyrey]

There’s no such thing as “a normal routine”. No one is ever in precisely the same circumstances as others every moment of the day, every day, every week, every month and every year. Nor does everyone have precisely the same talents, abilities, opportunities, responsibilities and obligations. There is an incredible amount of richness and variety in even the apparently most ordinary life given the power of our intelligence and imagination. Even apparently doing nothing gives scope for individuality and creativity. The devil may find work for idle hands but God offers far more…

We don’t know anything about our first ancestors apart from the fact that they committed a serious sin knowing it was wrong and had to obtain food and shelter to keep themselves alive. Only Fundamentalists believe Genesis is literally true in every detail.