Is God all-loving

[underdog]

I think of it this way. I remember the wrath of my Mom when she was angry at me but she never stopped loving me. Her anger was out of love rather than hate. Can God be angry and show His wrath while still being a lovingkind God, absolutely. :twocents:

What do you think Jesus was pleading with His Father about letting this cup pass, but your will be done? What was this cup, but the wrath of God? Jesus being in agony, he prayed more earnestly and his sweat became like great drops of blood fallen down to the ground.

What do you think was poured out on the cross where Jesus cried “why have you foresaken me”?

I’m not sure your Mom’s wrath is in the same category for the wrath of God that was poured out on Jesus Christ on behalf of those who would believe.

 

[underdog]

IMO God loves everyone, some just don’t love Him back.

Are you trying to share official Roman Catholic teaching or personal beliefs? I thought Roman Catholicism was not about personal opinion, but rather the fullness of truth given to the church?

 

[ralphinal]

Both Jesus and the prophet are correct. Or are you saying that both Malachi and Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:21) are incorrect.

later in John 3, John says,

John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

That person on whom the wrath of God abides and shall not see life is not being bathed in God’s love just the opposite.

So how does God both love the World and hate it?

Unless you see that those whom God “hates” are those who love sin more than God.

 

[RubyT]

Thanks for your 2 cents…

But isn’t there a difference between wrath and chastisement? I agree chastisement and love are connected (eg, Hebrews 12), but I don’t see the connection between wrath and love.

God may show his love toward one group of people by pouring out his wrath on another group (eg passover in Egypt), but the group receiving his wrath (eg Egyptian firstborn during the passover) aren’t getting the feeling of God’s deep love for them…just the opposite…no?

If you knew my Mom you would call it wrath. lol

Rom3:5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous is He? (I am speaking in human terms).

Let’s use an example:

If the definition of wrath is Gods judgement(anger, vengence) than wrath is the consequence of His judgement after many warnings which Pharaoh did not heed. To give so many blatant warnings such as the Nile turning to blood, frogs, gnats, locust(insects), pestilence etc. and still Pharaoh was stubborn. Now if God wasn’t a loving God He would have just struck down the Pharaoh without warning and taken His people. Instead He gave Pharaoh warning after warning.The Pharaoh lied to Moses (and indirectly lied to God) saying He would release them but still Pharoah did not.

Yes, you can say that Gods wrath is rage, resentment, vengence. I still hold that God gave Pharoah more chances than he deserved out of love, because He had a loving nature rather than a wrathful nature. Thus, God is still all loving. How can God allow Pharaoh such obstinance without any consequence of wrath? After all He is God. I say He showed great loving restraint when it came to Pharaohs’ actions and lies. Pharaoh brought the wrath of God upon the Egyptian people. God did plenty to avoid showing His wrath. You know the story.

God gave the Pharaoh in Egypt many chances to free His people. Many signs, many ailments yet the Pharaohs heart was stubborn. Is that Gods fault? Didn’t He give the Pharaoh plenty of warning? Didn’t the Pharaoh have free will? Did Gods love show through the many chances He gave Pharaoh? I say yes; Gods love is apparent through His restraint with the Pharaoh.

My point is: Out of Love God gave Pharaoh more then enough chances. Why would God do this? IMO it is because He is a loving God not prone to swift wrathful actions.
:twocents: :twocents:

Much respect and many blessings. Good topic!

 

[RubyT]

Are you trying to share official Roman Catholic teaching or personal beliefs? I thought Roman Catholicism was not about personal opinion, but rather the fullness of truth given to the church?

I case you didn’t know IMO means in my opinion.

 

[underdog]

If the definition of wrath is Gods judgement(anger, vengence) than wrath is the consequence of His judgement after many warnings which Pharaoh did not heed. To give so many blatant warnings such as the Nile turning to blood, frogs, gnats, locust(insects), pestilence etc. and still Pharaoh was stubborn. Now if God wasn’t a loving God He would have just struck down the Pharaoh without warning and taken His people. Instead He gave Pharaoh warning after warning.The Pharaoh lied to Moses (and indirectly lied to God) saying He would release them but still Pharoah did not.

Yes, you can say that Gods wrath is rage, resentment, vengence. I still hold that God gave Pharoah more chances than he deserved out of love, because He had a loving nature rather than a wrathful nature. Thus, God is still all loving. How can God allow Pharaoh such obstinance without any consequence of wrath? After all He is God. I say He showed great loving restraint when it came to Pharaohs’ actions and lies. Pharaoh brought the wrath of God upon the Egyptian people. God did plenty to avoid showing His wrath. You know the story.

God gave the Pharaoh in Egypt many chances to free His people. Many signs, many ailments yet the Pharaohs heart was stubborn. Is that Gods fault? Didn’t He give the Pharaoh plenty of warning? Didn’t the Pharaoh have free will? Did Gods love show through the many chances He gave Pharaoh? I say yes; Gods love is apparent through His restraint with the Pharaoh.

My point is: Out of Love God gave Pharaoh more then enough chances. Why would God do this? IMO it is because He is a loving God not prone to swift wrathful actions.
:twocents: :twocents:

Much respect and many blessings. Good topic!

Who hardened Pharaoh’s heart in the begining, middle, and end? Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart from the begining to the end, but for His own glory and purpose. Sometimes the truth goes against our natural inclinations and personal opinions.

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,

Exodus 7:13
Still Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 7:14
The First Plague: Water Turned to Blood
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh’s heart is hardened; he refuses to let the people go.

Exodus 7:22
But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:19
Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:7
And Pharaoh sent, and behold, not one of the livestock of Israel was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Exodus 9:34
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Exodus 9:35
So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses.

Exodus 10:1
The Eighth Plague: Locusts
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,

Exodus 10:20
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go.

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

Exodus 14:8
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the people of Israel while the people of Israel were going out defiantly.

Exodus 14:17
And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Romans 9:17-18
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

[RubyT]

What do you think Jesus was pleading with His Father about letting this cup pass, but your will be done? What was this cup, but the wrath of God? Jesus being in agony, he prayed more earnestly and his sweat became like great drops of blood fallen down to the ground.

What do you think was poured out on the cross where Jesus cried “why have you foresaken me”?

I’m not sure your Mom’s wrath is in the same category for the wrath of God that was poured out on Jesus Christ on behalf of those who would believe.

Your absolutely right my Moms wrath is not the same as Gods it was an example.

So you think Christ in the garden sweating blood was because of Gods wrath? Actually it was because God loved the world so much He gave His only begotten Son.

When Jesus cried “My God why have thou forsaken me”, This also has nothing to do with wrath. It is because God had to remove Himself from the sins of the world which Jesus was atoning for through His death.

When Jesus asked “let this cup pass from me” it had nothing to do with Gods wrath. It is because Jesus was also human and knew how difficult the task would be. But trusting the Father and faithful to the Father He allowed Himself to suffer on the cross for our sins.He knew it was the Fathers will. This has nothing to do with wrath.

 

[underdog]

Your absolutely right my Moms wrath is not the same as Gods it was an example.

So you think Christ in the garden sweating blood was because of Gods wrath? Actually it was because God loved the world so much He gave His only begotten Son.

When Jesus cried “My God why have thou forsaken me”, This also has nothing to do with wrath. It is because God had to remove Himself from the sins of the world which Jesus was atoning for through His death.

When Jesus asked “let this cup pass from me” it had nothing to do with Gods wrath. It is because Jesus was also human and knew how difficult the task would be. But trusting the Father and faithful to the Father He allowed Himself to suffer on the cross for our sins.He knew it was the Fathers will. This has nothing to do with wrath.

Are you trying to represent the Catholic Church with your views? Does anyone know the official Roman Catholic teaching on the text of “let this cup pass from me”?

 

[davidv]

Are you trying to represent the Catholic Church with your views?

Trying or not, I find RubyT’s remarks in line with Catholic teaching.

 

[RubyT]

Who hardened Pharaoh’s heart in the begining, middle, and end? Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart from the begining to the end, but for His own glory and purpose. Sometimes the truth goes against our natural inclinations and personal opinions.

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,

Exodus 7:13
Still Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 7:14
The First Plague: Water Turned to Blood
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh’s heart is hardened; he refuses to let the people go.

Exodus 7:22
But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:19
Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:7
And Pharaoh sent, and behold, not one of the livestock of Israel was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Exodus 9:34
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Exodus 9:35
So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses.

Exodus 10:1
The Eighth Plague: Locusts
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,

Exodus 10:20
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go.

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

Exodus 14:8
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the people of Israel while the people of Israel were going out defiantly.

Exodus 14:17
And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Romans 9:17-18
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Okay so perhaps my example was off. I still hold that God is a Lovingkind God. This is not a personal opinion. This is written many times in the bible. This was the point to my post which you managed to avoid. You focus on the misgivings and ignore the points others are trying to portray. Whereas I can conceed to your point you ignore mine. Where’s the love Underdog?

John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Glory be to God
God Is Love.

 

[swariffin]

Here’s a more historical example of God’s wrath,

Ezra 5:12 “But because our fathers had provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this temple and deported the people to Babylon.”

So God’s wrath fell upon them, an historical fact, in the form of them being deported.

So then God does at times express his anger in the form of wrath? He can be wrathful?

If God was so mad with the Israellite at that time, why would God saved them later on? Do you think the israellite could come back to their land out of their own power? It does not sound as wrath, if later God saved them. To put them into a test, is a more precise meaning.

Oh yes, God can be wrathful too, but at least He has not been in that situation from the earliest day of the creation until the moment which we don’t know later on.

 

[swariffin]

What about wrathful punishment on those whom he doesn’t love? Is it still corrective?

God hates sins, but God loves the sinners.

 

[RubyT]

Are you trying to represent the Catholic Church with your views? Does anyone know the official Roman Catholic teaching on the text of “let this cup pass from me”?

Rubyt;So you think Christ in the garden sweating blood was because of Gods wrath? Actually it was because God loved the world so much He gave His only begotten Son.

What no comment on this Underdog?

Rubyt;When Jesus cried “My God why have thou forsaken me”, This also has nothing to do with wrath. It is because God had to remove Himself from the sins of the world which Jesus was atoning for through His death.

What no comment on this Underdog?

Like I said you cannot conceed yet are quick to point out others misgivings. Again I say where’s the love?

I prayed for you today Underdog.

 

[Henning]

So how does God both love the World and hate it?

I admit that’s a tough one. But there can’t be a contradiction between John 3:16 and Rom 9:13. I’ll check CCC if anything on this topic. The way I see it is that I don’t think he hates the world but that he does end up hating certain individuals (the Esaus) *in *that world while loving others (the Jacobs).

I guess it comes to how to understand ‘world’. Does he mean in 3:16 all the world as in each and every human in that world (kind of reminds me of the problem with the all in Mat 3:5 “and went out to him all Judea”)? For example John 6:33, “For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” Jesus brings (offers) life into the world but that doesn’t mean that each and every person will have that life.

Unless you see that those whom God “hates” are those who love sin more than God.

yah, that makes sense too. (thanks for your replies BTW)

 

[swariffin]

But then how to understand Esau:

Romans 9:13 “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

-is from-

Malachi 1:2 "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

So there are those that the LORD hates.

That is the problem of being a sola scripturist (I am not saying that you are a sola scripturist). You can’t take the meaning of what is written too literally. Human description when describing a dichotomy tends to be extreme. The purpose is nothing but showing a difference. The style is tends to be a hyperbole. If God really really hate Esau, why created him anyway?

 

[swariffin]

Both Jesus and the prophet are correct. Or are you saying that both Malachi and Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:21) are incorrect.

later in John 3, John says,

John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

That person on whom the wrath of God abides and shall not see life is not being bathed in God’s love just the opposite.

Dear Henning,

If a man does not take the “Son”, that means such man does not take the word of God. And, the word of God is the only way such man can get to God. Not taking the word of God means such man is away from God. Once such man is away from God, he is no longer within God’s domain, and fall within the devil’s domain with all of the consequencies which come with. That condition is already a wrath of God. So, the wrath of God does not mean that God must show his strength by showing fearful thunder, high tsunami, big volcano, etc. Those things are only the imagination of human about God’s wrath.

 

[Henning]

That is the problem of being a sola scripturist (I am not saying that you are a sola scripturist).

Actually I was a sola scripturist , just picked up a bible one day and started reading without church or anything. Now I’m in RCIA.

You can’t take the meaning of what is written too literally. Human description when describing a dichotomy tends to be extreme. The purpose is nothing but showing a difference. The style is tends to be a hyperbole. If God really really hate Esau, why created him anyway?

I would answer with scripture
Romans 9:22 “What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”

 

[swariffin]

Actually I was a sola scripturist , just picked up a bible one day and started reading without church or anything. Now I’m in RCIA.

I would answer with scripture
Romans 9:22 “What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”

Welcome to the RCC, brother.

Please read Roman 9:21 too. All the suffering that the israellite in the OT, is part of the clay being formed by the Potter. It is nothing to do with “actual” wrath anyway.

 

[RubyT]

That is the problem of being a sola scripturist (I am not saying that you are a sola scripturist). You can’t take the meaning of what is written too literally. Human description when describing a dichotomy tends to be extreme. The purpose is nothing but showing a difference. The style is tends to be a hyperbole. If God really really hate Esau, why created him anyway?

Good point. These terms love and hate are a dichotomy. The difference may be less extreme than us humans can fathom.

Proverbs6:16 “There are six things which the lord hates,”

Rom12:9 “Let love be without hypocrisy”.

Good thought provoking post.

 

[ralphinal]

I think that this may be a case where we are using human words to describe an act of God in terms that Humans understand.

I think that he Loves the world. Jesus says that. He loves all individuals. Now, some people hate God. Some people love sin. God does hate sin, but he loves sinners so much that we had Jesus do what he did for us all. However, not all of us accept it. When a sinfull human sees God punish an unrepentant sinner, does that sinner blame the guilty or God?

In the world, when a judge sentences a guilty party, do the guilty get mad at themselves or the judge? What about other criminals?