Is God always the same?

[AtDawn]

Does the Catholic Church say anything about the nature of God, and if it is and has always been the same?

Can god changes his mind. Can he develop, and learn?

After the deluge, God promised to never kill of Earth’s population again. Why he made this promise is not explained, but it certainly looks like the God of the Old Testament has a long and sometimes tiring relationship with the stubborn humans. And he tries different versions of handling it.

First there’s Adam and Eve, who don’t obey. Then there’s the deluge and Noa. Then Abraham, and first after him Moses is given the ten commandments. And later, God gives his people zillions of rules to follow. Jesus said that he has not come to get rid of the law, but after the death of Jesus his disciples come to the conclusion that most of the Jewish law does no longer apply.

Why would God change the rules like this, unless he is trying out and learning? But if he can learn things, he doesn’t already know everything. Isn’t that contradict the statement that God is almighty?

 

[simpleas]

I was told that God does not change, it’s us that do.

We learn and grow closer to God as we become more aware that God is love and in turn love one another as he loved us first.

 

[friardchips]

Does the Catholic Church say anything about the nature of God,

Hi. To answer some questions:

• Three Persons in one God - one substance: The Mystery of the Holy Trinity.

…and if it is and has always been the same?

• Yes.

Can god changes his mind. Can he develop, and learn?

• God never changes or develops. He is all knowing and always was the beginning and the end. Rather, his will unfolds.

After the deluge, God promised to never kill of Earth’s population again. Why he made this promise is not explained, but it certainly looks like the God of the Old Testament has a long and sometimes tiring relationship with the stubborn humans. And he tries different versions of handling it.

• In human terms, we could say he quite long-suffering, to put it lightly. But no, he never tires of us. He is infinitely patient. Infinitely wise. All loving.
• God never changes. It is our growing understanding of Him that changes. People do evil to one another. He allows for free will and evil in the world in order that we might learn and come to Him. But God does not hurt us.
• God does help us in various ways and is always there for us besieging us from all sides with His love.

First there’s Adam and Eve, who don’t obey. Then there’s the deluge and Noa. Then Abraham, and first after him Moses is given the ten commandments. And later, God gives his people zillions of rules to follow. Jesus said that he has not come to get rid of the law, but after the death of Jesus his disciples come to the conclusion that most of the Jewish law does no longer apply.

• I do not understand what you mean by: 'after the death of Jesus his disciples come to the conclusion that most of the Jewish law does no longer apply.’

Why would God change the rules like this, unless he is trying out and learning? But if he can learn things, he doesn’t already know everything. Isn’t that contradict the statement that God is almighty?

God knows all. He is not just trying out things. He gives us help but He already knows what will be. No rules have been changed.

I hope this helps.

God bless.

 

[AtDawn]

• I do not understand what you mean by: 'after the death of Jesus his disciples come to the conclusion that most of the Jewish law does no longer apply.’

I believe it is the Book of Leviticus that is full of rules. When praying you should wear a tassle with a blue thread in it, and so on. Christians don’t have to eat kosher, rules of not letting metal come close to the face is ignored, etc. Christans typically say “oh, that’s only for the Jews”. So for some reason it was very important that the Jews did all this. Non-Jews were considered unclean, but Peter had a vision showing him he should not think this way (and the same vision probably also was responsible for getting rid of the kosher rules, no?)

Apparently different rules applies for different people in different times. You can call that “no rules have been changed” if you like, it is technically correct, but my question still holds. If God is the same, and doesn’t change. Then I have severe difficulties in understand the changes in the OT, and also the change from OT and NT.

(Has there ever been a heresy stating that God develops over time?)

 

[friardchips]

I believe it is the Book of Leviticus that is full of rules. When praying you should wear a tassle with a blue thread in it, and so on. Christians don’t have to eat kosher, rules of not letting metal come close to the face is ignored, etc. Christans typically say “oh, that’s only for the Jews”. So for some reason it was very important that the Jews did all this. Non-Jews were considered unclean, but Peter had a vision showing him he should not think this way (and the same vision probably also was responsible for getting rid of the kosher rules, no?)

Apparently different rules applies for different people in different times. You can call that “no rules have been changed” if you like, it is technically correct, but my question still holds. If God is the same, and doesn’t change. Then I have severe difficulties in understand the changes in the OT, and also the change from OT and NT.

The only way I can answer this, and I expect many more people on here can answer with more detail if you require, is that Jesus completed Scripture, not did away with, Scripture. So, there were various things that Jews didn’t understand, one being that God IS for everyone, including gentiles (people who were not Jews). Jews had their own rituals and so on. The apostles went onto to apply all Jesus had taught to the whole world because God is for all, and the disciples knew - for everyone. This of course was something the OT Jews would not have comprehended. They were God’s chosen people. So there were things in the OT that were expressions of love by the Jews for their understanding of God at that time - customs and practices. This is not to say that God changed the way He did things but rather that He reveals Himself through time, and so they did not know that these expressions of love would ever become less necessary for loving God. Not that He didn’t appreciate their offering, which He did, I’m sure. But when Jesus came, He was the King they had been waiting for, to take them out of exile, except they could not see it. But we know and the apostles knew that He was much more than rituals and offerings and little rules. He IS the sacrifice for us. He is what we need. His love and ways of living are what we need to grow in faith and love. The Jews, however, did show love in the ways they could and obedience to rules had a lot to do with it. But the reality of Jesus is bigger than these customs and rituals and He stretched out His hands with eternal love for everyone and shook the very foundations of the earth.

I hope someone gives you a better response but this is a start I hope.

God bless.

(Has there ever been a heresy stating that God develops over time?)

All I know is that Christians understand that God does not change over time. I am sorry I can’t expand on that without checking myself as to whether heresies existed.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

To me, God is always available in my “Cloud of the Unknowing” and that changes, so my perception of God changes over time even though God does not, as far as I know.

The hallmark of apophatic prayer and the Cloud of the Unknowing is to consider what we do not know about God, rather than what we think we do.

1 Cor 8:2
If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.

MS

 

[ready]

God is the same as always. We just get different glimpses of Him over time. He is always all perfect, all good, all wise, all knowing, everywhere present, all just (all fair); His holy Will is fixed, though He is moved by our prayers and sacrifices. God bless you.

 

[AtDawn]

God is the same as always. We just get different glimpses of Him over time. He is always all perfect, all good, all wise, all knowing, everywhere present, all just (all fair); His holy Will is fixed, though He is moved by our prayers and sacrifices.

That statement is not so difficult to make. Actually seeing it, in a comparison between the OT and the NT, is perhaps a tad bit more complicated?

 

[ready]

That statement is not so difficult to make. Actually seeing it, in a comparison between the OT and the NT, is perhaps a tad bit more complicated?

Do you doubt what I say: that God is always all perfect, all good, all wise, all knowing, everywhere present, all just (all fair)? Do you doubt that His holy Will is fixed, though He is moved by our prayers and sacrifices?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Do you doubt what I say: that God is always all perfect, all good, all wise, all knowing, everywhere present, all just (all fair)? Do you doubt that His holy Will is fixed, though He is moved by our prayers and sacrifices?

My interest is not in casting doubt, but like Mary asked, “how can this be?” How can God act in ways seemingly so contrary to the very rules of justice and morality He gave us to the best of our perception and understanding, without compromising on the statements you are asserting?

It would seem like a fair observation that God the Father, for example, was willing to take out entire cities and in fact once took out nearly everyone on the planet with floods, and to make bets against the devil that involved all but destroying them. (Job) And now God the Son comes in and has the theme of mercy and now these sins no longer result in God’s killing people.

Does it not seem it would create cognitive dissonance in even the most open of human minds? How does one deal with these different images? Is it that God the Father is still the same in the N.T. but Jesus is now acting as a buffer between us so we don’t have to fear the Big Guy anymore? I’d rather think Jesus was here to help us receive blessings than to hide us from His wrath – but now that I think about it the story probably implies both.

MS

 

[ready]

My interest is not in casting doubt, but like Mary asked, “how can this be?” How can God act in ways seemingly so contrary to the very rules of justice and morality He gave us to the best of our perception and understanding, without compromising on the statements you are asserting?

It would seem like a fair observation that God the Father, for example, was willing to take out entire cities and in fact once took out nearly everyone on the planet with floods, and to make bets against the devil that involved all but destroying them. (Job) And now God the Son comes in and has the theme of mercy and now these sins no longer result in God’s killing people.

Does it not seem it would create cognitive dissonance in even the most open of human minds? How does one deal with these different images? Is it that God the Father is still the same in the N.T. but Jesus is now acting as a buffer between us so we don’t have to fear the Big Guy anymore? I’d rather think Jesus was here to help us receive blessings than to hide us from His wrath – but now that I think about it the story probably implies both.

MS

Everything God does and has ever done has been perfectly fair, so I experience no cognitive dissonance when thinking about Him and His judgments and designs. Remember, He rewards the just in Heaven. God bless you.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Everything God does and has ever done has been perfectly fair, so I experience no cognitive dissonance when thinking about Him and His judgments and designs. Remember, He rewards the just in Heaven. God bless you.

In order to avoid the cognitive dissonance, you must be viewing it from a higher order “dimensionality” for lack of a better word, than the divisions that make sense to most of us humans.

For me, I can sort of imagine ways in which the OT and NT versions do not conflict, but they are pretty abstract so I’ve never tried to describe them in words.

For those parts of the “dissonance” that I cannot come up with a sufficient way to view them that makes sense, I have to chalk up to “mystery” or even “in the Cloud of the Unknowing.” I’m OK with not knowing things that a) nobody really understands anyway and b) I don’t need to understand to know what I have to do at any given moment.

Peace,
MS

 

[ready]

In order to avoid the cognitive dissonance, you must be viewing it from a higher order “dimensionality” for lack of a better word, than the divisions that make sense to most of us humans.

For me, I can sort of imagine ways in which the OT and NT versions do not conflict, but they are pretty abstract so I’ve never tried to describe them in words.

For those parts of the “dissonance” that I cannot come up with a sufficient way to view them that makes sense, I have to chalk up to “mystery” or even “in the Cloud of the Unknowing.” I’m OK with not knowing things that a) nobody really understands anyway and b) I don’t need to understand to know what I have to do at any given moment.

Peace,
MS

Yes, I am looking at things from a higher order (from reason enlightened by supernatural faith and directed by supernatural charity), and yes, there is mystery involved. Thank you for your good response – I feel very blessed to have no cognitive dissonance. God bless you.

 

[AtDawn]

Do you doubt what I say: that God is always all perfect, all good, all wise, all knowing, everywhere present, all just (all fair)? Do you doubt that His holy Will is fixed, though He is moved by our prayers and sacrifices?

I doubt everything. I am not a believer; I am searching.

I fail to see, though, how that affects my question in itself.

 

[ready]

I doubt everything. I am not a believer; I am searching.

I fail to see, though, how that affects my question in itself.

You are searching, but do you pray? If you are not a believer then pray for faith and keep searching. You will not arrive at divine truth unless you keep searching and begin praying (for faith, etc.): and you will not be able to arrive at the knowledge that God is always the same unless you keep searching and praying. Your doubting and not having faith has everything to do with your not understanding that God is always the same (your question). God bless you.

 

[AtDawn]

You are searching, but do you pray? If you are not a believer then pray for faith and keep searching. You will not arrive at divine truth unless you keep searching and begin praying (for faith, etc.): and you will not be able to arrive at the knowledge that God is always the same unless you keep searching and praying. Your doubting and not having faith has everything to do with your not understanding that God is always the same (your question).

Well, actually I do. Although I do not feel to share much details. It is a very private matter, still, to me. I

The only way I can understand your post is that in essence, you are telling me “this can not be intellectually understood”. I.e. “here’s one of the inconsistencies that lots of people struggle with”. Which is fine… but I much prefer if it is said openly. (Unless, of course, if I have completely misunderstood you.)

 

[AtDawn]

For me, I can sort of imagine ways in which the OT and NT versions do not conflict, but they are pretty abstract so I’ve never tried to describe them in words.

Yeah. Guess so.

This is difficult.

 

[ready]

Well, actually I do. Although I do not feel to share much details. It is a very private matter, still, to me. I

The only way I can understand your post is that in essence, you are telling me “this can not be intellectually understood”. I.e. “here’s one of the inconsistencies that lots of people struggle with”. Which is fine… but I much prefer if it is said openly. (Unless, of course, if I have completely misunderstood you.)

No, I am not saying at all that this can not be intellectually understood – it can be, with grace. I have arrived at my knowledge and confidence in God’s goodness etc. through supernatural grace: faith in God (in His goodness and Providence) and in the teachings of His Church about Him, and also through reading about God’s loving and merciful Providence and His goodness and through reading about His good reasons for doing what He did in the OT. Faith enlightens my reason, and the charity God gives me allows me to really trust that everything He does or ever did in the OT is for the benefit of His people. There is an article that I read by Tim Staples about the OT and killings that will help you. I’ll see if I can find it for you, okay? God bless you.

EDIT:

Here is the article I mentioned above. It was written by apologist Jimmy Akin, not Tim Staples.

jimmyakin.com/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html