Is God as good as we think?

[Longing]

I am a catholic, but recently something has been bothering me. I don’t know if I’ll get a proper answer for it.

There is a God - about that there is no doubt. However, is He as good as we think? I mean, if we were created to bring pleasure to God, then why did He put us here on earth and not up in Heaven with Him? Many will say it is to test us. But if we were created perfect and in the image of God, then why must we be tested? Clearly if something is perfect, it need not be tested.

Also, there are literally millions of galaxies out there. So if God is so good, why would He banish the devil to earth when there are billions of other planets? Surely if you are good then you won’t want to punish and cause harm to that which brings you pleasure.

 

[Robert_Sock]

That’s an honest question that I think a lot of people ask. I sure do, but it’s my inner experiences of LOVE that caused me to reject the idea that God is not good. Yes, He may have created us for instrumental reasons, which is scary indeed, but I feel Him working in my life, which provides me with great hope.

 

[Bill_Martin]

Which is greater: a human being or a computer?

A being with free will is greater than a being without it. Free will is what makes us in the image and likeness of God because it makes us capable of doing good. When I write code on my computer and it executes properly, I don’t consider it to have done a morally good thing because it lacks free will to choose to work or not–it either is correct code and works or it isn’t and fails.

In the same way, without free will we would not be able to do good things because we would just be executing our instructions as programmed, making all actions morally neutral. In order to be made in the image and likeness of God, who does good and is good, we must be able to do good ourselves. Thus we have free will, and thus we are capable of misusing it.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes. I would add:
Would you prefer a shotgun wedding?
Or a marriage where you freely give your love to one another?

 

[Longing]

Which is greater: a human being or a computer?

A being with free will is greater than a being without it. Free will is what makes us in the image and likeness of God because it makes us capable of doing good. When I write code on my computer and it executes properly, I don’t consider it to have done a morally good thing because it lacks free will to choose to work or not–it either is correct code and works or it isn’t and fails.

In the same way, without free will we would not be able to do good things because we would just be executing our instructions as programmed, making all actions morally neutral. In order to be made in the image and likeness of God, who does good and is good, we must be able to do good ourselves. Thus we have free will, and thus we are capable of misusing it.

I don’t mean any sort of offense, but this reply does not fit with my question.

Yes, free will is what makes good and bad things happen. However, my question was more on why we need to be put through the good and bad things when we were made by God for his pleasure? Why would you want to see something that you created suffer? How does that bring pleasure to someone that is good?

I’m not asking these questions to be funny. I know that they are hard and that only self inner reflection can truly answer them.

 

[Longing]

That’s an honest question that I think a lot of people ask. I sure do, but it’s my inner experiences of LOVE that caused me to reject the idea that God is not good. Yes, He may have created us for instrumental reasons, which is scary indeed, but I feel Him working in my life, which provides me with great hope.

Thanks for your honest reply. Yeah, it definitely is something to think about.

 

[Bill_Martin]

I don’t mean any sort of offense, but this reply does not fit with my question.

Yes, free will is what makes good and bad things happen. However, my question was more on why we need to be put through the good and bad things when we were made by God for his pleasure? Why would you want to see something that you created suffer? How does that bring pleasure to someone that is good?

I’m not asking these questions to be funny. I know that they are hard and that only self inner reflection can truly answer them.

I understood your question, and I still think it’s relevant. Suffering comes from the misuse of that free will. It is not God’s intention that we should suffer because sin was not the purpose or intention of free will. God doesn’t derive pleasure from our suffering because suffering is the result of sin, which was certainly not why we were created.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Absolutely not.

Because he is better.

 

[fred_conty]

I think the best answer is to look at your loving savior hanging from the cross for three hours. Don’t say a word, but just in your mind see him there hanging in terrible misery for a few minutes. This makes sense of it all and anything else we may see going on in this world…his complete giving of himself to us without reserve. We may not be able to explain many, many things, but this one thing makes everything else pale…his personal dedicated special love for us. Then all else doesn’t hold a candle to this.

If we trust in Jesus, and his love for us, then we may not know his ways, but we do know he loves us in his way regardless of what we may not know.

 

[spiderweb]

Originally Posted by Longing

There is a God- about that there is no doubt. However, is He as good as we think? I mean, if we were created to bring pleasure to God, then why did He put us here on earth and not up in Heaven with Him? Many will say it is to test us. But if we were created perfect and in the image of God, then why must we be tested? Clearly if something is perfect, it need not be tested.

There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings in what you are saying. God does not need man in order to “bring Him pleasure”, nor did God create man for that purpose. God created man for our own benefit in order to partake in His life. In a sense you could say that God created us in order to “bring us pleasure” through him. The one word that best describes God is Love. We cannot partake in the love of the Trinity if we ourselves do not love. But as a previous poster was trying to say, in order to love we must be able to do so freely as love cannot be forced, otherwise it would be coercion or God forcing his will upon us and not love at all.

From a Catholic perspective, the definition of “Heaven” is the “beatific vision”. It is a partaking of the Divine Nature of God (2 Peter 1:4), where we know Him even as He knows us (1 Cor 13:12). If God was to create us in Heaven (i.e. Beatific Vision), we would not have the freedom to love God because the love of God would essentially be forced upon as like a computer program, which of course is not love. It would be God’s Will imposed on us from the moment of our creation. Not even the angels were created in “Heaven”, they had to make a choice to love God and enter into the Beatific Vision, or to reject God and be excluded from it.

Being “made in the image of God” means that we can know, and following what we know, we can then choose to love by an act of will. These three elements (know, will, and love) are actions of our spirit. Just as God is a spirit (John 4:24), he created us with our own spirits made in his image so that we can know, will, and love. Our spirits were made good (in the sense that they work properly), but not perfect (in the sense that we use it properly). Now our knowing is very limited, our will is weak choosing both vice and virtue, our love is fickle. We will only be perfected in the beatific vision of heaven. Therefore, we “must be tested” in order to grow in knowledge and to choose vice or virtue, and ultimately to demonstrate by those choices whether we love God or not. I would say it’s not so much a “testing” rather it is an ongoing opportunity to grow in knowledge of God, love of God, and demonstrating it by practicing virtues. Our time on Earth is the time of “courtship” with the goal of the wedding feast in heaven. The closer we become during the “courtship” phase of life, the happier we will be during the “marriage” phase of eternity.

 

[spiderweb]

Originally Posted by Longing

Also, there are literally millions of galaxies out there. So if God is so good, why would He banish the devil to earth when there are billions of other planets? Surely if you are good then you won’t want to punish and cause harm to that which brings you pleasure.

I believe what you are referring to is Revelation Chapter 12. As you well know, Revelation uses all kinds of symbolic depictions of events and as such I would just caution on reading it too literally. A very literal reading of Chapter 12 creates all kinds of contradictions. You have the woman bringing forth the male child (Jesus) in verse 5 and he ascended to his throne. But only after that is the devil and his angels cast to earth when we know that they were active on earth before that. Jesus also says “Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world (satan) be cast out” (John 12:31). The demons are also referred to as being cast down to hell into darkness and reserved there until the day of judgment (2 Pet 2:4, Jude 1:6). But Paul refers to satan as still being at work in this world among the children of disobedience (Eph 2:2). So what gives?..

First, to be clear God didn’t “banish” the devil to earth. He may permit devils to be here or at work here but they are not banished here. Another look at Revelation 12:3-4 and it is the dragon (satan) himself who cast them to earth possibly for the sole purpose of making war with those who love God (Rev 12:7).

But I think your real question is even if God didn’t banish the devil to earth, why does he permit him to cause harm to us? Except in very rare incidences, God does not allow the devil to directly cause us harm. When he does it is usually only for very Holy people and for a specific purpose (Padre Pio and several saints come to mind). But he does allow him to “instigate” harm. This is often forms of temptation which by our own free will we either follow satan or follow God. The devil does not punish us directly, we freely choose to cooperate with him in opposition to God, and the consequences of that is our punishment. Often times our sins affect others as well. But it is our doing, at the instigation of satan to be sure, but it is still our decision to do it. Just as God can’t force us to freely love him, the devil can’t force us to love sin. We choose with our will what we will love and thereby what we will do with that love. The love of money, power, sex, etc., has caused the greatest amount of harm to mankind. That can’t be blamed on the devil, because he cannot force us to sin or to love sin.

Ultimately, I think we undervalue how good God is to give us the freedom to love. He didn’t have to create us at all. He certainly didn’t have to create us with the capacity to love at all or to even know that we are loved even by others on earth. He definitely didn’t have to give us the opportunity to share in His own Perfect love for eternity. This short time on earth that we have to develop this love relationship with God in which we have to overcome some difficulties is nothing compared to eternity. “Is God as good as we think?” No, he is far better than anyone can even imagine. Even though this world has many ugly things in it (most of which are caused by the sins of man either directly or indirectly), there is so much good, joy, and beauty that I think most people would be content to live on this earth, even as it is, for eternity (as long as they didn’t have to grow old). But He created us with something far better in store for those who choose to love him.