Is God behind the Church?

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mcliffor

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If God wills the salvation of souls, why is the Church in the state it is? If God doesn’t desire apostasy, abuses, unbelief, etc., why is his Church filled with traders and why has it been deprived of its power to effect the world and culture? Why is it filled with bishops whose allegiances are too the secular world, and why has he let the liturgy become what it is? In short, why are the gates of hell prevailing against it?
 
mcliffor said:
If God wills the salvation of souls, why is the Church in the state it is? If God doesn’t desire apostasy, abuses, unbelief, etc., why is his Church filled with traders and why has it been deprived of its power to effect the world and culture? Why is it filled with bishops whose allegiances are too the secular world, and why has he let the liturgy become what it is? In short, why are the gates of hell prevailing against it?
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Because the gates of hell have ALWAYS been struggling mightily against it. It has ALWAYS been filled with worldly or misguided bishops (Starting with the treacherous Judas and the cowardly St Peter himself, along with the others who abandoned Christ. And need I mention John XII and Alexander VI?)

Why did God let so many of his early followers be persecuted by the Romans?

Why did he let so many fall victim to the Arian heresy, or the Orthodox schism, or the Protestant Reformation?

Why let so many atrocities be done to the Christians during the Crusades, and to Catholic clergy in particular during the French Revolution and Napoleon’s period in power?

For that matter, why did he let his chosen people of old, the Israelites, be taken into slavery, first in Egypt - for 400 years, then in Babylon? And suffer so much else besides?

God does things in his own time, but he has also given us free will and lets us suffer the consequences of our own pride and stubborn sinfulness, but his promises are sure, as is his victory.
 
As St. Pius X said, “They err greatly, therefore, who lose faith during the storm, wishing for themselves and the Church a permanent state of perfect tranquillity, universal prosperity, and practical, unanimous and uncontested recognition of her sacred authority.”
 
Matt. 8:24 And behold a great tempest arose in the sea, so that the boat was covered with waves, but he was asleep. 25 And they came to him, and awaked him, saying: Lord, save us, we perish. 26 And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

Jesus is on board with us, He’s in control, and He wins in the end. 🙂
 
More wisdom from St. Pius X 🙂 :

"But there is comfort for us: the Lord liveth and “He will make all things work together unto good to them that love God” (Rom. viii. 28). Even from these evils He will bring good, and above all the obstacles devised by human perversity He will make more splendid the triumph of His work and of His Church. Such is the wonderful design of the Divine Wisdom and such “His unsearchable ways” (Ib. xi. 33) in the present order of Providence – “for my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor my ways your ways, said the Lord” (Isai. Iv. 8) – that the Church of Christ is destined ever to renew in herself the life of her Divine Founder who suffered so much, and in a manner to “fill up what is wanting of the sufferings of Christ” (Coloss. i. 24). Hence her condition as militant on earth divinely constrains her to live in the midst of contentions, troubles, and difficulties, that thus “through many tribulations she may enter into the kingdom of God” (Act. xiv. 21), and at last be united with the Church triumphant in heaven.

“St. Anselm’s commentary on the passage of St. Matthew: " Jesus constrained His disciples to enter the boat,” is directly to the point: “The words in their mystical sense summarize the state of the Church from the coming of Jesus Christ to the end of the world. The ship, then, was buffeted by the waves in the midst of the sea, while Jesus remained on the summit of the mountain; for ever since the Savior ascended to heaven holy Church has been agitated by great tribulations in the world, buffeted by various storms of persecution, harassed by the divers perversities of the wicked, and in many ways assailed by vice. Because the wind was contrary, because the influence of malign spirits is constantly opposed to her to prevent her from reaching the port of salvation, striving to submerge her under the opposing waves of the world, stirring up against her all possible difficulties” (Hom. iii. 22). "
 
LilyM said:
Because the gates of hell have ALWAYS been struggling mightily against it. It has ALWAYS been filled with worldly or misguided bishops (Starting with the treacherous Judas and the cowardly St Peter himself, along with the others who abandoned Christ. And need I mention John XII and Alexander VI?)

Why did God let so many of his early followers be persecuted by the Romans?

Why did he let so many fall victim to the Arian heresy, or the Orthodox schism, or the Protestant Reformation?

Why let so many atrocities be done to the Christians during the Crusades, and to Catholic clergy in particular during the French Revolution and Napoleon’s period in power?

For that matter, why did he let his chosen people of old, the Israelites, be taken into slavery, first in Egypt - for 400 years, then in Babylon? And suffer so much else besides?

God does things in his own time, but he has also given us free will and lets us suffer the consequences of our own pride and stubborn sinfulness, but his promises are sure, as is his victory.
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But in those examples, the faith itself was pure. There may have been horrible Popes, but at the end of the day, peoples spiritual lives were essentially the same. They didn’t have to worry about bishops standing in their way or promoting changes that would be disasterous to their spirituality.
 
Come on. . .the Church withstood the gnostics, the Arians, the monophysites, the Iconoclasts, the Great Schism, the Protesant Reformation, wars, pestilence, and natural disasters. . .

and we’re worried about what the baby boomers and Gen X have ‘done’???

:rotfl:

Ok, seriously, yes, there are problems today. Because they’re affecting us, because they haven’t ‘already happened’ in the distant past (or distant to us anyway:D ) we naturally ‘make more’ of what we ourselves experience.

And certainly we should be trying our hardest to correct first our own wrongs, and trying to do God’s will. We are the Church, aren’t we?

But don’t let’s get so caught up with presuming that we, and our times, are the ‘baddest of the bad’ and that we somehow have caused the gates of hell to triumph over the Church.

We aren’t, and we haven’t. . .and we won’t–God has promised this.
 
mcliffor said:
But in those examples, the faith itself was pure. There may have been horrible Popes, but at the end of the day, peoples spiritual lives were essentially the same. They didn’t have to worry about bishops standing in their way or promoting changes that would be disasterous to their spirituality.
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The “faith” is still as pure as it always was. It is only those attempting to live it out or ignore it or attack it who are not.
 
mcliffor said:
But in those examples, the faith itself was pure. There may have been horrible Popes, but at the end of the day, peoples spiritual lives were essentially the same. They didn’t have to worry about bishops standing in their way or promoting changes that would be disasterous to their spirituality.
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Are you kidding? The “woe is me things were so pefect before” is a pipe dream. Let me give you a quote:

“The doctrines of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the devices of innovators are in vogue in the Churches; now men are rather contrivers of cunning systems than theologians; the wisdom of this world wins the highest prizes and has rejected the glory of the cross. Shepherds are banished, and in their places are introduced grievous wolves hurrying the flock of Christ. Houses of prayer have none to assemble in them; desert places are full of lamenting crowds. The elders lament when they compare the present with the past. The younger are yet more to be compassionated, for they do not know of what they have been deprived.”

Sound familiar? That’s from St. Basil the Great in the 4th century.

Read about what St. Anselm had to deal with. Read about the Mass of Asses and the Mass of Fools in the middle ages if you want to see true liturgical abuse. Read St. Peter Damien’s “City of Gammorah,” read about the indulgence preachers of the 1400s and 1500s, read about all the junk going on in the 1700s and 1800s. Read the Epistles and see what the Apostles were dealing with right from the start. Read about the Arian heresy–you think the faith was pure in the Church then? The pope (Liberius) excommunicated St. Athanasius for professing Jesus as God! Some figures place about 90% of bishops as denying the Divinity of Christ. Things might not be that good nowadays, but they ain’t the worst.

Shoot, after all that, the fact we still exist is proof God is behind us 🙂
 
We are a Church of saints and sinners. Isn’t that what you would expect to find in His Church? Anti-Catholics frequently point to the failings of some of our members to attempt to discredit the Church and completely ignore the most beautiful testament to Christ’s presence in our Church - the saints.
 
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