Is God bound by logic?

[CeaselessMedik]

Why/why not?

 

[dsmantz]

No. Because I see absolutely nothing about Creation and our Salvation history to be logical, in any sort of means. It’s mainly emotional. Quick answer, short reply.

 

[JerryS]

God is not bound. Logic is certainly of God, though. Without logic, there is no way to discern truth. If there is no way to discern truth, there is no way to understand God.

If we don’t see something as logical, it seems more likely that our finite brains and limited awareness are to blame, not God being illogical.

 

[danserr]

Why/why not?

Yes. He cannot make a square circle, for example. Such an idea is simply nonsense, and, as CS Lewis says, nonsense remains nonsense even when we speak it of God. God remains omnipotent, he can do all things possible. But a square circle is not a thing; it is a meaningless combination of words. So if by “is God bound by logic?” you mean, “can God do things that are contradictory or logically impossible?” then the answer is “no,” and this is no limit to his omnipotence or power.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Why/why not?

Logic does not bind God any more than goodness does; indeed in God they are the same thing. God has infinite perfections. To be irrational, including to be illogical, is an imperfection and so cannot be attributed to God. This total adherence to logic and overall rationality does not limit God but frees God from error and chaos. Remember that the God the Son is Logos, a word related to “logic.” God is supreme Rationality.

 

[babylonsfalling]

Why/why not?

I don’t think anyone can answer that with certainty.

If the answer is yes, then how do you test it, allowing that God’s logic is so far beyond us, He could do something logical that would seem illogical by human standards. Parents behavior can seem illogical to a child. Multiply that by infinity when it comes to a human judging God’s logic.

I guess the best answer that allows for logic is, "God is not bound by human perceptions of logic.

Would we deem it logical to sacrifice our only Son for a group of insects?

 

[brianwalden]

I can’t disagree with you more dsmantz. Emotions are fleeting and don’t necessarily correspond to the truth.

I don’t know if saying God is bound by logic is the right way to put it, kind of like it would be incorrect to count God’s inability to sin as a defect. God is logic, He is the Logos. Something that’s illogical doesn’t exist - it’s a meaningless string of words describing something that can never happen.

For example take the old canard, “Can God create a rock so heavy he can’t move it?” The question is actually meaningless - anything that has mass by definition can be acted upon by a force. Such a thing as a rock that can’t be moved cannot exist, therefore God can neither create or move it. This is not a deficiency in God - if anything being able to describe something so meaningless is a deficiency in our language. I wouldn’t so much say this means God is bound by logic as it means reality is bound by logic.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Logic is simply a formal and systematic approach to inference and valid reasoning. It isn’t an essential force or cosmological constant. Saying God is bound by logic would be like saying that God is bound by philosophy. If you mean “bound by logic” in the sense that God cannot do something that is impossible (e.g. exist and not-exist at the same time) then I see what you are driving at. God is simply bound by possibilities.

 

[brianwalden]

Logic is simply a formal and systematic approach to inference and valid reasoning. It isn’t an essential force or cosmological constant. Saying God is bound by logic would be like saying that God is bound by philosophy.

God is Truth and God is Existence (among other things) - therefore there can only be one philosophy and one logic. They flow from God - so yes they are cosmological constants. If logic wasn’t a cosmological constant we wouldn’t be able to use it for reasoning. We wouldn’t be able to make the simplest logical conclusions like, “Given A=B and C=B, then A=C” because we’d have no assurance that A would in all instances equal C - the logic which makes that statement true could change with the wind.

One example to help understand this is by looking at philosophy. Theology and science are both subsets of philosophy. Theology studies revealed truths and science studies empirical truths. Theology and Science do not conflict each other because they are both portions of the one, universal philosophy. Incorrect philosophies (like bad theology or bad science) obviously conflict with this objective philosophy and usually conflict with each other.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

God is Truth and God is Existence (among other things) - therefore there can only be one philosophy and one logic. They flow from God - so yes they are cosmological constants. If logic wasn’t a cosmological constant we wouldn’t be able to use it for reasoning.

Logic isn’t a property of the universe but simply a methodology of reason. The Universe would operate just fine without logic. Logic can even fail as quantum superposition demonstrates.

 

[brianwalden]

Logic isn’t a property of the universe but simply a methodology of reason. The Universe would operate just fine without logic. Logic can even fail as quantum superposition demonstrates.

Logical reasoning is a type of reasoning based on logic but logical reasoning is not logic itself. We can’t even imagine a universe without logic. Take the most basic logical statement: A=A. I can’t comprehend a universe where that could be untrue. What would it be like if one instance we were ourselves and the next we were not (this is what would happen if A was not equal to A (or if you were not equal to you).

Is mathematics merely a naming system that helps us organize and calculate numbers, or is mathematics the discovery of universal principals? Math is a type of logic.

God is the Logos: He is logic. I don’t see how you can say logic is merely a form of reasoning.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

You all are wonderful with circumlocution, so let me simplify: God can circumvent logic. If so, why can’t he make everyone good gods?

 

[Ignatius]

Why/why not?

Logic is a means of discerning the truth; God IS TRUTH itself.

 

[brianwalden]

You all are wonderful with circumlocution, so let me simplify: God can circumvent logic. If so, why can’t he make everyone good gods?

There is no such thing as multiple good gods. God, by definition, is the fullness and completeness of goodness. God, by definition, is the fullness and completeness of existence. If there were multiple beings who were independently good instead of deriving our goodness from God like we all do, then each of these beings would lack the goodness of the other. If there existed multiple gods who were the cause of their own existence, then by definition they would not be God because each would lack the other’s existence.

Getting back to logic. I don’t see where you’ve shown that God can circumvent logic. If by logic you mean the wikipedia definition that everyone is throwing around, then yes God can defy logic. If by logic you mean the internal reasoning of the Truth, no God cannot defy that - all attempts to imagine something that could defy that logic merely create strings of absurd and meaningless words like “multiple good gods” or the square-circle that someone else mentioned.

 

[brianwalden]

Logic is a means of discerning the truth; God IS TRUTH itself.

I think you’re taking one definition of logic and trying to make it the only definition.

You’ve already admitted that there is one universal truth which subsists in God. We also know that that truth is reasonable and rational. It has it’s own logic. This is why if the Church were, for example, to change it’s teaching on birth control it would create a fundamental misunderstanding of marriage which in turn would create a fundamental misunderstanding of who Man is which would create a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God which would create a fundamental misunderstanding of who God is. God can no more defy this logic than he can defy truth.

We need a Thomist to chime in here. I may not possess the… well… logic, for lack of a better term, to explain it clearly. But I’m pretty sure that logic is just as universal as truth, love, justice, and mercy are.

 

[brianwalden]

Logic is a means of discerning the truth; God IS TRUTH itself.

Sorry for the mulitple posts, but another way of responding to this is with the question: Why is logic a valid means of discerning truth? I would submit that the answer is that the truth is, in and of itself, logical.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

It seems to me you’re saying “it’s this way because God says so.” And as for logic and truth: everybody st sees “truth” as something found a posteriori - what we can observe. you seem to take everything at face value, or because it seems incomprehensible.

 

[brianwalden]

It seems to me you’re saying “it’s this way because God says so.” And as for logic and truth: everybody st sees “truth” as something found a posteriori - what we can observe. you seem to take everything at face value, or because it seems incomprehensible.

I’m not saying that at all. In fact my position wouldn’t change even if we had no revealed truth. Aristotle seemed to figure a lot of this stuff out without revelation.

The truth exists regardless of what we can experience and observe. Who is this “everybody”?

What exactly am I taking at face value. I don’t really follow the way you’re interpreting my comments. Maybe I’m not expressing myself clearly.

I hold the position I do because of reason (of course, my reasoning may be wrong) - so I think much of this is very comprehensible. Are you talking about how I said, it’s impossible to imagine a universe where A=A is false? If that’s what you’re referring to, give it a shot then. Describe for me what a universe would like like where a thing is not equal to itself. It’s my position that such a universe defies logic - it can’t possibly exist, hence God who is existence himself could not produce such a universe.

 

[razredge]

Yes, he is definitely bound by metaphysics and logic.

Otherwise we get problems with omnipotence and the like.