Is God Completely Omniscient?

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raikou said:
Yes. He is the ultimate cause of everything. He is the foundation of all that is possible - he sets the “mechanisms” by which things can take place. But in some cases, I think he is not the DIRECT cause, as in the case of free creatures. The free action is directly caused by the free being himself (ex. Sin), where God is only the indirect cause because the mechanisms by which the sin could be made are set by him. In this case though, the creature is the one responsible, and not God. It’s like the store owner sold a gun to this guy, and yet it’s still the guy who used it for murder.

But please do censure me if I am stating a heresy.
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👍

That sounds exactly right to me.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Well He DID come down to experience life as a human, actually.

Anyway, even if he’s not completely experienced, how would that limit omniscience? He would know exactly what it’s like to be completely experienced, down to the last detail.

I don’t see how it’s illogical to say He’s not completely experienced but still omniscient.
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I agree. Knowledge is acquisition of information and not necessarily experiencing it yourself. After all, even those who experienced things themselves will only deal wth that knowledge as a stored memory.

To spock, maybe you are confusing God with human experience? Sometimes when people say “I know how you feel” but haven’t actually experienced it, we feel that it’s somehow inaccurate. But God’s knowledge and reality is different from ours. He knows exactly how we feel and what we experience. He even knows us better than we know ourselves.
 
spockrates said:
I suppose that depends on how one defines omniscience. If we define the holy attribute as knowing all that is possible to know, then I don’t see how God can have omniscience. Please tell me: Is experience knowledge?
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Experience brings knowledge, but is not itself knowledge, no.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Not really. :confused:

[BTW, you realize your signature was actually originally said by Sherlock Holmes. 😃 ]
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Spock attributes the quote to one of his Vulcan ancestors. Given that this ancestor Spock quotes was exploring outer space at the time Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s ancestors were still living in caves, I’d say the Vulcans have a more compelling claim on that bit of logical wisdom!

😛
 
raikou said:
To spock, maybe you are confusing God with human experience? Sometimes when people say “I know how you feel” but haven’t actually experienced it, we feel that it’s somehow inaccurate. But God’s knowledge and reality is different from ours. He knows exactly how we feel and what we experience. He even knows us better than we know ourselves.
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I hope you won’t be offended by my asking this: Does God know what the pleasure of sexual intercourse feels like? (I won’t get any more explicit than that, but the question needs to be asked.)
 
God’s omniscience is a matter of intellect and observation. He apprehends by intellect everything that is possible, and additionally perceives directly everything that actually occurs in time and space.

It is not asserted that God has personally experienced every possible phenomenon, especially those that are inconsistent with His perfection. The Incarnation has reduced that list somewhat, but God is never going to “know” sin in an experiential sense.

Usagi
 
raikou said:
Yes. He is the ultimate cause of everything. He is the foundation of all that is possible - he sets the “mechanisms” by which things can take place. But in some cases, I think he is not the DIRECT cause, as in the case of free creatures. The free action is directly caused by the free being himself (ex. Sin), where God is only the indirect cause because the mechanisms by which the sin could be made are set by him. In this case though, the creature is the one responsible, and not God. It’s like the store owner sold a gun to this guy, and yet it’s still the guy who used it for murder.

But please do censure me if I am stating a heresy.
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Would you say God is the cause of every sinful thought, word, or deed I think, say, or do?
 
spockrates said:
Would you say God is the cause of every sinful thought, word, or deed I think, say, or do?
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God is the cause of all your thoughts, words, and deeds in the sense that He holds you constantly in existence and makes your activity possible. He is not a sufficiently proximate cause of your actions to make Him responsible for your actual choices.

S.
 
Usagi said:
God’s omniscience is a matter of intellect and observation. He apprehends by intellect everything that is possible, and additionally perceives directly everything that actually occurs in time and space.

It is not asserted that God has personally experienced every possible phenomenon, especially those that are inconsistent with His perfection. The Incarnation has reduced that list somewhat, but God is never going to “know” sin in an experiential sense.

Usagi
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Usagi:

Would you say everything that can be known is known by mere intellect and observation? Or are there some things that can only be known by experiencing them?
 
spockrates said:
I hope you won’t be offended by my asking this: Does God know what the pleasure of sexual intercourse feels like? (I won’t get any more explicit than that, but the question needs to be asked.)
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Yeah, why?

He knows what the PLEASURE of sexual intercourse is like. He just doesn’t need to actually engage in it to know it.

It’s not really offensive, the Bible covers this in “Song of Songs”. 🙂
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Yeah, why?

He knows what the PLEASURE of sexual intercourse is like. He just doesn’t need to actually engage in it to know it.

It’s not really offensive, the Bible covers this in “Song of Songs”. 🙂
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Yes, God can observe the sexual pleasure a husband and wife share. But is that the same as having the same experience himself? Consider this: Jimi Hendrix sang, “Have you ever been experienced? Well, I have.” So are you thinking God would know what what the experience Hendrix had experienced felt like, even though God had never had the same experience himself?

Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced?

If you can just get your mind together
Then come on across to me
We’ll hold hands and then we’ll watch the sunrise
From the bottom of the sea

But first, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Well, I have

I know, I know you probably scream and cry
That your little world won’t let you go
But who in your measly little world
Are you trying to prove that
You’re made out of gold and, eh, can’t be sold

So, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Well, I have

Let me prove you…

Trumpets and violins I can hear in distance
I think they’re calling our names
Maybe now you can’t hear them, but you will
If you just take hold of my hand

Oh, but are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful…
 
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Some say Hendrix was singing about the experience of getting high on acid. Are you thinking this experience is something God knows, even though he is not experienced? I’m thinking that experience is knowledge one can have only by experiencing. But perhaps I’m wrong. Do you know of an example of an experience one can know without experiencing it?
 
Or do you have a different definition of experience we may consider? I don’t see how experience is not a kind of knowledge God does not fully have. But if you believe experience is not knowledge, then please explain why.

🙂
 
spockrates said:
Some say Hendrix was singing about the experience of getting high on acid. Are you thinking this experience is something God knows, even though he is not experienced? I’m thinking that experience is knowledge one can have only by experiencing. But perhaps I’m wrong. Do you know of an example of an experience one can know without experiencing it?
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Hmmm, the problem here, I think, is that we’re trying to look at things from our views rather than God’s. God knows exactly how we feel at all times-everybody. He experiences what we do, because He knows what we know-including our experiences. Which He knew in advance, anyway.

[Yes, this DOES lead into “Problem of Evil” problems, but this isn’t really the thread to be exploring that.]
 
Does anyone disagree that God has not been completely experienced, and so there are some things we know, which he never will?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Hmmm, the problem here, I think, is that we’re trying to look at things from our views rather than God’s. God knows exactly how we feel at all times-everybody. He experiences what we do, because He knows what we know-including our experiences. Which He knew in advance, anyway.

[Yes, this DOES lead into “Problem of Evil” problems, but this isn’t really the thread to be exploring that.]
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Then I think you must have a different understanding of what experience is. I’m thinking experience is the kind of knowledge one can only have by experiencing it. You seem to be saying experience is the kind of knowledge God can have without experiencing it!

Now I believe God knows what it feels like to suffer, for he did suffer while incarnate. But I don’t see how he knows what it feels like to be sexually intimate, for he was celibate. No sexual intimacy, no knowledge of the sexual experience.

But I don’t want to misunderstand you. Please tell me what you believe experience is so we might compare notes.

🙂
 
spockrates said:
Then I think you must have a different understanding of what experience is. I’m thinking experience is the kind of knowledge one can only have by experiencing it. You seem to be saying experience is the kind of knowledge God can have without experiencing it!

But I don’t want to misunderstand you. Please tell me what you believe experience is so we might compare notes.

🙂
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I think Spock might’ve stole your signature from Sherlock Holmes.

Bill
 
spockrates said:
Then I think you must have a different understanding of what experience is. I’m thinking experience is the kind of knowledge one can only have by experiencing it. You seem to be saying experience is the kind of knowledge God can have without experiencing it!

But I don’t want to misunderstand you. Please tell me what you believe experience is so we might compare notes.

🙂
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Equivocating knowledge with experience will certainly lead to misunderstanding.
 
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