Is God Completely Omniscient?

[presidentjlh]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rZ6ButhYP04/TwZfR5WpB_I/AAAAAAAAA1c/FeXg_9IbJuY/s1600/genesis3.jpg

Does he know the experience of being evil? Are these words of the serpent the oldest truth, or the oldest lie about God?

“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

(Genesis 3:5)

God must surely know what is evil, as He knows all that is good. That which is not good, must be evil, for I would posit that all that is good is that which is at least morally neutral (For example, walking one single step is a morally neutral act in a context with no real implications to that act). Therefore, if He knows all, and He understand all things that are good, surely He must understand evil, but this does not imply that the serpent’s words are correct, for God is more than knowing good and evil. To know good and evil is one thing, to always and absolutely choose the good (for God is of free will) is another.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Dear Spockrates,
you wrote:
God will not be able to save all people from hell, as he desires. True?
Sorry, but
NOT TRUE! For
God certainly could save this disbelievers too, but since God is justice Himself, it would not be just to the faithful to save the unfaithful and evildoers as well.

Be aware that all you say, write, think; you do in the face of God!
So never write, say, think anything that could cause God’s wrath

Yours
Bruno

 

[spockrates]

Dear Spockrates,
you wrote:
God will not be able to save all people from hell, as he desires. True?
Sorry, but
NOT TRUE! For
God certainly could save this disbelievers too, but since God is justice Himself, it would not be just to the faithful to save the unfaithful and evildoers as well.

Be aware that all you say, write, think; you do in the face of God!
So never write, say, think anything that could cause God’s wrath

Yours
Bruno

Bravo, Bruno! Wisely said. Would you say it is unwise to be unjust? Would you also say wisdom is part of what God knows through his omniscience? If so, would you say, as well that God’s omniscience limits what he will do?

 

[spockrates]

When we say God knows all, perhaps the issue is not whether He can truly know all, but the extent to which we can comprehend that He truly knows all?

Hi, President. Yes, I agree. We cannot know God as fully as he knows us, but that is a noble goal to know him, I think. That’s my goal in having this dialog–to know Christ.

10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

(Philippians 3)

Is it not possible that God can defy logic yet obey it at the same time? For if all is possible with God, could God Himself not do such? I tend to think He can.

I’m thinking that when Jesus said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God,” (Mark 10:27) he did not mean nothing absurd is impossible with God. Instead he meant nothing reasonable is impossible with God. There is at least one thing impossible for God:

…it is impossible for God to lie…

(Hebrews 6:18)

Since God cannot lie, and God is omnipotent, doesn’t this mean that omnipotence is not actually doing everything, but is instead having the power to do only those things one chooses to do?

 

[JDaniel]

Are you saying power is love is wisdom?

Spocrates:

Not exactly, but there certainly is a very powerful affinity between them.

Are you saying omnipotence, omnibenevolence and omniscience are not three, but one and the same? There is nothing different about the triune attributes of God?

No, but there is certainly is a very powerful affinity between them. That fact is, they inhere in the same subject. Neither of the determinants can over-rule any other. They are wielded perfectly - together.

God bless,
jd

 

[BrunoMaria]

Would you say it is unwise to be unjust? Would you also say wisdom is part of what God knows through his omniscience? If so, would you say, as well that God’s omniscience limits what he will do?

God certainly does not limit Himself. You for instance neither limit yourself by NOT killing your enemy, even when you could and nobody ever could possibly find out. You would not, because your conscience tells you it’s wrong, and doing wrong, sinful things, spoils and smirches your soul. Your soul which is your actual “I” and yourself.

If then someone would say “you limit yourself”, or “you can not” because you do not, then you’d wonder about his lack of understanding - for you very well could, but doing such thing wouldn’t even come into your mind, so, why should you “limit” yourself by not doing what you could - killing your enemy.

With God it’s neither limiting Himself, for God is love itself (among justice and righteousness itself and goodness itself). But one must beware to challenge this love of God, for then it’s as Paul warned in Hebr 10,31: a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Yes, to be unjust is indeed extremely unwise, for justness is given to us by God together with our birth. Some though bury this justness for selfish reasons, and so cripple their soul, which is outmost unwise, as to live with a crippled soul is to live with a crippled self. It’s as unwise as to decide not to eat.

We know all that and a lot more about God and our relation to God, through God’s owen revelation to us. God revealed Himself to us (through Moses - the Prophets, Jesus Christ - who is God himself in God, and finally through His Church, to an extend as we are able to grasp; which of course is a limited revelation, as we simply won’t be able to hold it or understand more. Jesus said so in John 16,12: I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
So; we couldn’t even bear more - not even to speak of comprehending.
We simply wouldn’t be able to bear more, than what God has revealed to us anyhow. But this is so much already, that 2000 years research and explanations still leaves many clueless.
But they who simply think they are unable to understand - and even say “the world can not really comprehend” must let them being asked if they REALLY knocked - if they REALLY asked in prayer - if they REALLY in confidence and love ASKED GOD to help their disbelief. Mark 9,24: “I believe; help my unbelief!”
We and the world of course can understand - if we really want to!

Fully though, we will never understand God - neither here nor later in heaven - not even the Angels do nor ever will, as God is never knowable. But we in all our wisdom still only know a very tiny fragment of the lot God revealed about Himself.

Yet: If one keeps on with buts and ifs about God, he’ll never be given the grace to be allowed to understand. For not all are allowed to, but only those who are given the grace to believe, as they REALLY knocked - REALLY asked in prayer - REALLY in confidence and love ASKED GOD to help their disbelief. For he who knocks, will be opened. He who knocks in disbelief and convincement that there is anyhow nothing behind (this door) - he will never be heard nor opened.

So, let’s lay all our confidence in God, then we really meet God, are heard and loved.

Yours
Bruno

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Spockrates,

Are you being serious?

God is One - we as humans can not work with that as a concept becaue it goes beyond human ability. So, we try to give God ‘parts’ like Justice, Mercy - and, yes, He is Omniscient, too! But, these attributes are for our benefit - in an effort to know a little more about God. We can not DE-fine God or set limits on Him - all this is for us, so we can handle thinking about an Infinite God with our finite minds.

To try and play word games on this is not appropriate.

Personally, I think you owe BrunoMarie an apology.

God bless

Bravo, Bruno! Wisely said. Would you say it is unwise to be unjust? Would you also say wisdom is part of what God knows through his omniscience? If so, would you say, as well that God’s omniscience limits what he will do?

 

[spockrates]

God certainly does not limit Himself. You for instance neither limit yourself by NOT killing your enemy, even when you could and nobody ever could possibly find out. You would not, because your conscience tells you it’s wrong, and doing wrong, sinful things, spoils and smirches your soul. Your soul which is your actual “I” and yourself.

Thanks for the info, but I did not ask if God limits himself. I asked if God limits his actions.

If then someone would say “you limit yourself”, or “you can not” because you do not, then you’d wonder about his lack of understanding - for you very well could, but doing such thing wouldn’t even come into your mind, so, why should you “limit” yourself by not doing what you could - killing your enemy.

With God it’s neither limiting Himself, for God is love itself (among justice and righteousness itself and goodness itself). But one must beware to challenge this love of God, for then it’s as Paul warned in Hebr 10,31: a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Would you say justice is wise, and so, it is a kind of wisdom? Would you also say, then that God is both love and wisdom?

Yes, to be unjust is indeed extremely unwise, for justness is given to us by God together with our birth. Some though bury this justness for selfish reasons, and so cripple their soul, which is outmost unwise, as to live with a crippled soul is to live with a crippled self. It’s as unwise as to decide not to eat.

We know all that and a lot more about God and our relation to God, through God’s owen revelation to us. God revealed Himself to us (through Moses - the Prophets, Jesus Christ - who is God himself in God, and finally through His Church, to an extend as we are able to grasp; which of course is a limited revelation, as we simply won’t be able to hold it or understand more. Jesus said so in John 16,12: I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
So; we couldn’t even bear more - not even to speak of comprehending.
We simply wouldn’t be able to bear more, than what God has revealed to us anyhow. But this is so much already, that 2000 years research and explanations still leaves many clueless.
But they who simply think they are unable to understand - and even say “the world can not really comprehend” must let them being asked if they REALLY knocked - if they REALLY asked in prayer - if they REALLY in confidence and love ASKED GOD to help their disbelief. Mark 9,24: “I believe; help my unbelief!”
We and the world of course can understand - if we really want to!

Fully though, we will never understand God - neither here nor later in heaven - not even the Angels do nor ever will, as God is never knowable. But we in all our wisdom still only know a very tiny fragment of the lot God revealed about Himself.

Yet: If one keeps on with buts and ifs about God, he’ll never be given the grace to be allowed to understand. For not all are allowed to, but only those who are given the grace to believe, as they REALLY knocked - REALLY asked in prayer - REALLY in confidence and love ASKED GOD to help their disbelief. For he who knocks, will be opened. He who knocks in disbelief and convincement that there is anyhow nothing behind (this door) - he will never be heard nor opened.

So, let’s lay all our confidence in God, then we really meet God, are heard and loved.

Yours
Bruno

Yes, I’ll keep on knocking.

 

[spockrates]

Hi, Spockrates,

Are you being serious?

God is One - we as humans can not work with that as a concept becaue it goes beyond human ability. So, we try to give God ‘parts’ like Justice, Mercy - and, yes, He is Omniscient, too! But, these attributes are for our benefit - in an effort to know a little more about God. We can not DE-fine God or set limits on Him - all this is for us, so we can handle thinking about an Infinite God with our finite minds.

To try and play word games on this is not appropriate.

Personally, I think you owe BrunoMarie an apology.

God bless

Doesn’t Paul put a limit on what God can do when he writes to the young priest this?

God…cannot lie…

(Titus 1:2)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Spockrates,

This is silly.

In the same way, humans are not limited because they do not have crystalized brains and metalic organs - it is not in their nature. It is in their nature to have living flesh that makes up their bodies.

In the same way God is not limited because there is something outside of His Nature He can not do. He can not lie - because to lie (to whom would he lie, anyway? because it is against His Nature.

Now, I am wondering what the point is in re-hashing this material - it has been answered. You continue to posit the same statements as though you have not read the resposes. Please, if you have a difference of opinion, just state it and the reason for this - then we can move into a meaningful discourse.

God bless

Doesn’t Paul put a limit on what God can do when he writes to the young priest this?

God…cannot lie…

(Titus 1:2)

 

[BrunoMaria]

God…cannot lie… (Titus 1:2)

Now, don’t try to be in the right, when you know you are not. narrow minded nit-picking on views on words, to prove the wrong to be right, doesn’t bend the truth.
It says in Titus 1,2: …in hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago… - but you caught a translation where it says instead; …God, who can’t lie…
Never mind, for both is right - if understood rightly. Since many however tend to misunderstand things - some even deliberately so, the three words …WHO NEVER LIES… respectably …WHO CAN’T LIE… in many common Bibles had been left away and there it simply says: …in hope of eternal life which God promised ages ago…

Let’s be reasonable. I don’t speak proper English, but I know the phrase …you can’t… is used so often, when you jolly well could, but never would. Sure you know: You can lead a horse to water (but you can’t make it drink). Which fits on some stubborn whom we can teach, but we can’t make them understand if they refuse to comprehend.
Or take “Can’t you be quiet?!” or “You can’t be serious”.
All these “can’t” do certainly include that it (whatsoever in question) definitely can be done, but never would. Like “You can’t beat that child” (which of course you could, but never would).

I suppose you heard and understood the first time, but simply wanna insist that there’s somet God can’t.
Let’s be aware that there is NOTHING God can’t!
Match Jer 32,27 or Mat 19,26
And try to mind as I said before:
Whatever we say, write, think - we say/write/think in the face of God. So; let’s not doubt God nor ever tempt God, for that’s deadly.
Romans 14,23: The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God; … for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
And Mat 4,7: ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’

Yours
Bruno-Maria

 

[spockrates]

Hi, Spockrates,

This is silly.

In the same way, humans are not limited because they do not have crystalized brains and metalic organs - it is not in their nature. It is in their nature to have living flesh that makes up their bodies.

In the same way God is not limited because there is something outside of His Nature He can not do. He can not lie - because to lie (to whom would he lie, anyway? because it is against His Nature.

Now, I am wondering what the point is in re-hashing this material - it has been answered. You continue to posit the same statements as though you have not read the resposes. Please, if you have a difference of opinion, just state it and the reason for this - then we can move into a meaningful discourse.

God bless

Yes, sorry for rehashing, Tom. When I’m having a dialog with several people at a time, I sometimes tend to forget what I’ve asked of whom.



I do agree that the things outside of God’s nature do not limit who God is. My thought is that these things do limit what God can do. So omnipotence cannot be the power to do unlimited kinds of actions. For God’s nature–specifically his love and wisdom–limits what he can do to that which is loving, or wise. That’s what I now see. How about you; do you agree?

 

[spockrates]

Now, don’t try to be in the right, when you know you are not. narrow minded nit-picking on views on words, to prove the wrong to be right, doesn’t bend the truth.
It says in Titus 1,2: …in hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago… - but you caught a translation where it says instead; …God, who can’t lie…
Never mind, for both is right - if understood rightly. Since many however tend to misunderstand things - some even deliberately so, the three words …WHO NEVER LIES… respectably …WHO CAN’T LIE… in many common Bibles had been left away and there it simply says: …in hope of eternal life which God promised ages ago…

Let’s be reasonable. I don’t speak proper English, but I know the phrase …you can’t… is used so often, when you jolly well could, but never would. Sure you know: You can lead a horse to water (but you can’t make it drink). Which fits on some stubborn whom we can teach, but we can’t make them understand if they refuse to comprehend.
Or take “Can’t you be quiet?!” or “You can’t be serious”.
All these “can’t” do certainly include that it (whatsoever in question) definitely can be done, but never would. Like “You can’t beat that child” (which of course you could, but never would).

I suppose you heard and understood the first time, but simply wanna insist that there’s somet God can’t.
Let’s be aware that there is NOTHING God can’t!
Match Jer 32,27 or Mat 19,26
And try to mind as I said before:
Whatever we say, write, think - we say/write/think in the face of God. So; let’s not doubt God nor ever tempt God, for that’s deadly.
Romans 14,23: The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God; … for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
And Mat 4,7: ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’

Yours
Bruno-Maria

Not sure I understand, Bruno. When you say, “Let’s be aware there is NOTHING God can’t,” do you mean Saint Paul the apostle was wrong and God certainly can lie?

Now I’m thinking there are things God cannot do if they go against his nature to love and act according to his wisdom. So how can omnipotence be the power to do anything imaginable? Isn’t omnipotence, instead the power to do anything that is in God’s nature to do, rather than the power to do every sinful thing you, I and Jimi Hedrix could do?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Spockrates,

Sure … no problem What we are saying is that God can create a contradiction - like a ‘square circle’. Given the definition of what a square is (4-sided figure with four 90 degree angles) and that of a circle (succession of points where no two connecting points are in a straight line) - then there can never be a ‘square circle’.

Now, if it makes you feel better to identify that God is ‘limited’ by not being to create a contradiction - fine - you are welcomed to it. For me, however, marveling at what He did create out of nothing is simply more the I can handle!

So, what is the point that you wish to make that will edify all who read it?

God bless

Yes, sorry for rehashing, Tom. When I’m having a dialog with several people at a time, I sometimes tend to forget what I’ve asked of whom.



I do agree that the things outside of God’s nature do not limit who God is. My thought is that these things do limit what God can do. So omnipotence cannot be the power to do unlimited kinds of actions. For God’s nature–specifically his love and wisdom–limits what he can do to that which is loving, or wise. That’s what I now see. How about you; do you agree?

 

[JDaniel]

Yes, sorry for rehashing, Tom. When I’m having a dialog with several people at a time, I sometimes tend to forget what I’ve asked of whom.



I do agree that the things outside of God’s nature do not limit who God is. My thought is that these things do limit what God can do. So omnipotence cannot be the power to do unlimited kinds of actions. For God’s nature–specifically his love and wisdom–limits what he can do to that which is loving, or wise. That’s what I now see. How about you; do you agree?

Spockrates:

Why must “full power” equal the “potential for destruction?” Why must God employ “variable” power or speed? Cannot God exercise His full power Providentially? Cannot God exercise His full power to create or sustain the object(s) of His Divine Will? There can be no lessening of His power. The human mind may view it like that, but, there is no sufficient reason why it must be like that. Creation is creation, no matter what it is that is created. There is no necessity that demands variability of God. He is not a child. There’s no need to fear that He may use too much power, or too little. He is infinite. All things that we see, at the explicate level, taking place across time, are started and completed by Him in less than a Planck second.

Remember, even in our view of Time, the Now is not a part of it. Analogously, God’s Eternal Now, is not part of any God-time. What God does must be done within an infinitesimally tiny duration, if I may use that word without muddying things up.

When we are building something, like say stitching up a wound, we want to be careful precisely because we are variable and we know that our variability can and does get away from us at times. How can that happen to God, who stitches all things up in less than a nano-second?

A diminution of any power is a referent to imperfection.

God bless,
jd

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JDaniel,

Excellent!

God bless

Spockrates:

Why must “full power” equal the “potential for destruction?” Why must God employ “variable” power or speed? Cannot God exercise His full power Providentially? Cannot God exercise His full power to create or sustain the object(s) of His Divine Will? There can be no lessening of His power. The human mind may view it like that, but, there is no sufficient reason why it must be like that. Creation is creation, no matter what it is that is created. There is no necessity that demands variability of God. He is not a child. There’s no need to fear that He may use too much power, or too little. He is infinite. All things that we see, at the explicate level, taking place across time, are started and completed by Him in less than a Planck second.

Remember, even in our view of Time, the Now is not a part of it. Analogously, God’s Eternal Now, is not part of any God-time. What God does must be done within an infinitesimally tiny duration, if I may use that word without muddying things up.

When we are building something, like say stitching up a wound, we want to be careful precisely because we are variable and we know that our variability can and does get away from us at times. How can that happen to God, who stitches all things up in less than a nano-second?

A diminution of any power is a referent to imperfection.

God bless,
jd

 

[Abbyristal]

Wich means he allowed satan to tempt them and then he acted all shocked when they ate from the tree.
try this website

 

[BrunoMaria]

Since Jesus Christ our savior was before the first humans where created - and as God knows (Mt 6,8) what we want before we ask for it, God is never “shocked” nor surprised as to what we do, let, sin, accomplish.
Woe unto the world because of offenses! For it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense come! (Mt 18,7).

As to “God allowed Satan to tempt“: If there’d be no temptation, there’d be no probation for heaven, no test if we are sort of worthy enough to reach eternal life in heaven with God. Earth would be reluctant altogether, we could be in heaven in the first place.
Even Angels where tempted by Satan and rebelled against God. They where banned off heaven. It would be ever so unfair, if we too had no temptation to decide for or against God, but had it all presented. Just as unfair, as if all had their food without work (Genesis 3,9).
Temptation is omnipresent. It starts at school and even earlier. We all where tempted not to learn and instead play. If we fell for it, we are poor the rest of our life. All falling’s got bad consequences – as to be righteous (diligent, good) encloses good consequences all the same. Cockayne for all; – no way! But - Jesus Christ; God Himself is ready any time we ask Him to help us in our despair and helplessness when we are tempted.
Here as in all our requests, precondition is to believe!

As to the by many doubters put conviction, that “Givens must limit what God can do, and so omnipotence cannot be the power to do unlimited kinds of actions, because God’s nature - specifically His love and wisdom – would limit what God can do to that“ - leads in many ways straight into atheism, for it disregards that all there is, has been created by God – including all laws of nature. We all know, that what so ever being left alone in it’s development, will proliferate like cancer, wild, shape-and formless, jumbled. Nothing like the beauty of the harmony we marveling adore in God’s creation.

But belief can’t be given to anyone, nor can a disbeliever acquire belief by simple Bible-Studies like studying any subject, for belief isn’t a subject, but togetherness with God on earth. Belief is given to those who ask God for it. But one can’t ask his father for anything – if one doesn’t love his father.

Now, I was told: A disbeliever can’t love God who’s existence he doubts! So, how can he ask God?
The answer is simple: He who knocks in real desire to be opened – without the preconceived opinion that there is anyhow nothing behind that door, so why should I knock – will be opened! Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened for you. (Matthew 7,7 - 7,14) and heavens will rejoice moreover you, than over many who never went astray (Matt 18,13)
Since whatever in life is, all try to get to the bottom of, why not try to get to the bottom of disbelief too. It’ll end in the void. He who dares to push open the door to belief, will be overwhelmed about what’s really behind, and regret the days he lived in doubts.

Yours
Bruno

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Wich means he allowed satan to tempt them and then he acted all shocked when they ate from the tree.
try this website

This objection has been raised a billion times and there are a billion replies to it, as well as some interesting back and forth. Try another thread.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Abbyristal,

Welcome to CAF!

I went to the link you provided - and it was FansEdgePromo Code…? maybe you copied and pasted the wrong link… Anyway, just what do you mean by, “…acted all shocked…”?

God bless

Wich means he allowed satan to tempt them and then he acted all shocked when they ate from the tree.
try this website