Is God Eternity? Is Heaven Eternity? Is God Heaven?

[slh3016]

I am, admittedly, not a philosopher or a theologian but I just began reading Frank Sheed’s “Theology for Beginners” and he states (from what I can understand) that God is Eternity. God is not IN Eternity but IS Eternity and further that Eternity does NOT mean everlasting time on both ends of the continuum.

However, in discussing this with my BIL, he pointed me toward some resources of William Lane Craig who seems to equate eternity with time and states that God is IN time. It was some very deep and complicated reading but he seems to reject St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine’s philosophy on this issue. He does seem to makes some very good points and, well, I’m confused.

What is the Catholic position on this, if there is one?

Further, it seems to me that if God=Eternity and Heaven=Eternity, then God=Heaven. Is this a correct syllogism? Or is Heaven a place? How does that correspond to the Beatific Vision?

In trying to formulate a coherent argument for it all, it seems to me that God is both inside and outside of time. I picture a blank piece of paper that is God/Eternity. On that paper there is an oval drawn that is our universe and the continuum of time exists inside that universe. Inside the universe is our planet. Since God is spirit, He permeates the veil that separates the universe from eternity, but due to our finite beings we do not have the ability to see through the veil and experience God or Heaven. Jesus’ sacrifice, however, is the bridge that permeates that divide but we have to walk the path He laid for us to reach it.

I know this is an imperfect analogy but the glaring question I have is: Where does Hell fit into this picture? Is Hell the absence of God? That seems impossible since the presence of God is everywhere, although we may be able to perceive it. Or is Hell just the permanent inability to perceive God? If so, where is it located and is it subject to time? Is it part of the universe? Did it exist before the universe?

Thanks!

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I am, admittedly, not a philosopher or a theologian but I just began reading Frank Sheed’s “Theology for Beginners” and he states (from what I can understand) that God is Eternity. God is not IN Eternity but IS Eternity and further that Eternity does NOT mean everlasting time on both ends of the continuum.

However, in discussing this with my BIL, he pointed me toward some resources of William Lane Craig who seems to equate eternity with time and states that God is IN time. It was some very deep and complicated reading but he seems to reject St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine’s philosophy on this issue. He does seem to makes some very good points and, well, I’m confused.

What is the Catholic position on this, if there is one?

Further, it seems to me that if God=Eternity and Heaven=Eternity, then God=Heaven. Is this a correct syllogism? Or is Heaven a place? How does that correspond to the Beatific Vision?

In trying to formulate a coherent argument for it all, it seems to me that God is both inside and outside of time. I picture a blank piece of paper that is God/Eternity. On that paper there is an oval drawn that is our universe and the continuum of time exists inside that universe. Inside the universe is our planet. Since God is spirit, He permeates the veil that separates the universe from eternity, but due to our finite beings we do not have the ability to see through the veil and experience God or Heaven. Jesus’ sacrifice, however, is the bridge that permeates that divide but we have to walk the path He laid for us to reach it.

I know this is an imperfect analogy but the glaring question I have is: Where does Hell fit into this picture? Is Hell the absence of God? That seems impossible since the presence of God is everywhere, although we may be able to perceive it. Or is Hell just the permanent inability to perceive God? If so, where is it located and is it subject to time? Is it part of the universe? Did it exist before the universe?

Thanks!

We believe God existed before the universe was created.
I think this suffices to answer many of your concerns.

 

[slh3016]

We believe God existed before the universe was created.
I think this suffices to answer many of your concerns.

Yes, I believe this as well, but if I am trying to explain to a non-Catholic what happens at Mass in that, basically, Heaven/Eternity is made present to us on the altar, how do I explain this if they say that the resurrected Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father in Eternity and therefore, cannot possibly be made present on the altar? This issue spiraled into a question of God, eternity, heaven, time, etc. When I said that God exists outside of time and thus the sacrifice of Jesus is a timeless, eternal sacrifice made present throughout the ages on Catholic/Orthodox alters at the moment of consecration, they said that it was a once for all sacrifice and therefore, Mass is an abomination “from the pits of hell.”

 

[pianistclare]

You should talk about this with your pastor for clarification.
Of course the crucifixion happened once in history.
We’re not crucifying Christ over and over again.
Read this:
catholic.com/tracts/the-institution-of-the-mass

 

[GLam8833]

Love is as strong as death and
jealousy as severe as hell Cant. 8:6
God is Love, in Eternity, and Love
never ends 1 Cor. 13:8 heaven is
the epitome of Love, in fact Love is
NOT a feeling but a PERSON, Jesus
who died on a Cross for Love of the
Church, his Body!!

 

[slh3016]

You should talk about this with your pastor for clarification.

I will try but I’m not sure my pastor is that philosophical

Of course the crucifixion happened once in history.

Of course! I hope you didn’t think I was saying otherwise

We’re not crucifying Christ over and over again.
Read this:
catholic.com/tracts/the-institution-of-the-mass

Good read but the person I’m dealing with believes that we don’t need a sacrifice of the Mass. That’s what he thinks is an abominable practice. He says the sacrifice occurred ONCE in history {on this point we agree} and was presented ONCE and ONCE ONLY in history and that only ONE presentation was needed for all time. Therefore, he claims there is no need for Christ to be physically present on the altar and re-presented to us. IOW, we have no need to participate in the sacrifice of Jesus. I agree with him to an extent but I think his definition of eternity is flawed. The sacrifice is present and with God as this very moment and is timeless (IOW, eternal but not in the sense of everlasting time). It is fully present because God is changeless and all things are “now” to Him. This may or may not be sound theology or philosophy so please correct me if I’m wrong in how I understand Sheed’s book.

Then the whole conversation spiraled into the definition of eternity, time, etc. and exactly if God is in time (thus making the definition of eternity everlasting time on both ends of the continuum) or whether God is Eternity (I contend that he can’t be IN eternity because the preposition “in” denotes a place and since He is spirit, He is not bound by the constraints of place and time).

 

[slh3016]

Love is as strong as death and
jealousy as severe as hell Cant. 8:6
God is Love, in Eternity, and Love
never ends 1 Cor. 13:8 heaven is
the epitome of Love, in fact Love is
NOT a feeling but a PERSON, Jesus
who died on a Cross for Love of the
Church, his Body!!

The question is: Is eternity a place or is it God? If God is not bound by time and space and is changeless, then He can’t really be IN something, right? “In” denotes a space that something occupies.

This is where it gets really deep for me and my puny little brain just wants to stop thinking

 

[GLam8833]

The question is: Is eternity a place or is it God? If God is not bound by time and space and is changeless, then He can’t really be IN something, right? “In” denotes a space that something occupies.

This is where it gets really deep for me and my puny little brain just wants to stop thinking

I think it’s about time you welcome the
God of Eternity like a little child and
accept Him and His love for you, which
is Eternal!!

 

[Vico]

I am, admittedly, not a philosopher or a theologian but I just began reading Frank Sheed’s “Theology for Beginners” and he states (from what I can understand) that God is Eternity. God is not IN Eternity but IS Eternity and further that Eternity does NOT mean everlasting time on both ends of the continuum.

However, in discussing this with my BIL, he pointed me toward some resources of William Lane Craig who seems to equate eternity with time and states that God is IN time. It was some very deep and complicated reading but he seems to reject St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine’s philosophy on this issue. He does seem to makes some very good points and, well, I’m confused.

What is the Catholic position on this, if there is one?

Further, it seems to me that if God=Eternity and Heaven=Eternity, then God=Heaven. Is this a correct syllogism? Or is Heaven a place? How does that correspond to the Beatific Vision?

In trying to formulate a coherent argument for it all, it seems to me that God is both inside and outside of time. I picture a blank piece of paper that is God/Eternity. On that paper there is an oval drawn that is our universe and the continuum of time exists inside that universe. Inside the universe is our planet. Since God is spirit, He permeates the veil that separates the universe from eternity, but due to our finite beings we do not have the ability to see through the veil and experience God or Heaven. Jesus’ sacrifice, however, is the bridge that permeates that divide but we have to walk the path He laid for us to reach it.

I know this is an imperfect analogy but the glaring question I have is: Where does Hell fit into this picture? Is Hell the absence of God? That seems impossible since the presence of God is everywhere, although we may be able to perceive it. Or is Hell just the permanent inability to perceive God? If so, where is it located and is it subject to time? Is it part of the universe? Did it exist before the universe?

Thanks!

William Lane Craig states (in interview) that “God is timeless without creation and He is temporal since the moment of creation. So the decision to create, on God’s part, is a decision to enter into time, to take on a temporal mode of existence, in order to relate to His creatures.” He believes that God’s temporal status is not ***essential ***to God, rather it is essential that He is eternal, that is without beginning or end. He also states that once God has created time and enters into it, it would be impossible to revert back to timelessness, even if God annihilated creation.

 

[slh3016]

I think it’s about time you welcome the
God of Eternity like a little child and
accept Him and His love for you, which
is Eternal!!

I think you are totally misunderstanding me here. Have you even read my posts? I DO accept the God of Eternity and his love for me but I am in debate with a non-Catholic who questions the Church’s teachings on Mass based upon the questions I asked regarding eternity, time, etc. It has nothing to do with my relationship with God or His eternal love for me. I know that it’s eternal but I’m trying to figure out what the best definition of eternity applies! Some say eternity is everlasting time; others say eternity is the complete state of timelessness (as in did time exist before the creation of the universe or did time and the universe start together?)

 

[slh3016]

William Lane Craig states (in interview) that “God is timeless without creation and He is temporal since the moment of creation. So the decision to create, on God’s part, is a decision to enter into time, to take on a temporal mode of existence, in order to relate to His creatures.” He believes that God’s temporal status is not ***essential ***to God, rather it is essential that He is eternal, that is without beginning or end. He also states that once God has created time and enters into it, it would be impossible to revert back to timelessness, even if God annihilated creation.

Yes, I read that on his website, but he says that his view disagrees with Augustine and Aquinas.

So, [see bolded and underlined part], is Craig saying that the eternal God is now in time even if the universe was annihilated? Am I understanding that correctly?

Sheed says in his book, “Time is the measure of change. Things go on changing, and time measures the changes…Where nothing changes, there is nothing for time to measure, so there is no time. Our material universe is continuously changing, and time belongs to it. God is changeless, so time has no meaning in relation to Him. We are in time, God is in eternity.”

He goes on to say that “time and the universe started together” and that “Eternity does not mean everlasting time, time open at both ends.” He says, “Eternity is not time at all. It is God’s total possession of Himself.”

I think I’m going to hang this topic up for a while. I need to finish reading Sheed’s book and read Aquinas and Augustine to fully grasp it all.

 

[Vico]

Yes, I read that on his website, but he says that his view disagrees with Augustine and Aquinas.

So, [see bolded and underlined part], is Craig saying that the eternal God is now in time even if the universe was annihilated? Am I understanding that correctly?

Sheed says in his book, “Time is the measure of change. Things go on changing, and time measures the changes…Where nothing changes, there is nothing for time to measure, so there is no time. Our material universe is continuously changing, and time belongs to it. God is changeless, so time has no meaning in relation to Him. We are in time, God is in eternity.”

He goes on to say that “time and the universe started together” and that “Eternity does not mean everlasting time, time open at both ends.” He says, “Eternity is not time at all. It is God’s total possession of Himself.”

I think I’m going to hang this topic up for a while. I need to finish reading Sheed’s book and read Aquinas and Augustine to fully grasp it all.

OK. About eternity though, Sheed and Craig seem to agree about eternity: Eternal God means God with no beginning or end.

One other thing too, is that Craig holds to the A theory of time (the common view of time).

 

[slh3016]

OK. About eternity though, Sheed and Craig seem to agree about eternity: Eternal God means God with no beginning or end.

One other thing too, is that Craig holds to the A theory of time (the common view of time).

I’m still trying to figure out what Sheed’s view was: A or B Theory?

 

[Vico]

Yes, I read that on his website, but he says that his view disagrees with Augustine and Aquinas…

A, B, C series (of McTaggert) were not around when Aquinas wrote but seems that B or C would work with his ideas, Summa Theologica, Q57, A.3:
“God’s one glance is cast over all things which happen in all time as present before Him.”

C-series atemporal relations, which are mental states, replace the “earlier than” or “later than” relation of B-series, explaining why an illusion of change and temporal succession can really arise atemporally.

 

[gus]

I will try but I’m not sure my pastor is that philosophical

Of course! I hope you didn’t think I was saying otherwise

Good read but the person I’m dealing with believes that we don’t need a sacrifice of the Mass. That’s what he thinks is an abominable practice. He says the sacrifice occurred ONCE in history {on this point we agree} and was presented ONCE and ONCE ONLY in history and that only ONE presentation was needed for all time. Therefore, he claims there is no need for Christ to be physically present on the altar and re-presented to us. IOW, we have no need to participate in the sacrifice of Jesus. I agree with him to an extent but I think his definition of eternity is flawed. The sacrifice is present and with God as this very moment and is timeless (IOW, eternal but not in the sense of everlasting time). It is fully present because God is changeless and all things are “now” to Him. This may or may not be sound theology or philosophy so please correct me if I’m wrong in how I understand Sheed’s book.

Then the whole conversation spiraled into the definition of eternity, time, etc. and exactly if God is in time (thus making the definition of eternity everlasting time on both ends of the continuum) or whether God is Eternity (I contend that he can’t be IN eternity because the preposition “in” denotes a place and since He is spirit, He is not bound by the constraints of place and time).

In the Mass we are enabled by God to not only share in his sacrifice and resurrection,but we obtain the bread of life whivh sustains us for our own resurrection .
We are like the Jews who ate the manna that sustained them but only nourished them for thrir journey ,they still died. The bread we receive will enable us never to die its the food of our own resurrection.
This requires true faith, it did 2000 yesrs ago ,it did throughout history,it certainly does in this synical age.
It’s the hardest teaching of God ,yet very simple,you don’t eat,or eat unworthily or without faith in Jesus’s words in John 6 you die.
Calling yourself Catholic, isn’t enough ,processing you have faith in Chtist but ignoring this is an empty faith and certainly not enough
Paul understood this
Peter understood this
Ignatius of Antioch knew this
Justin Martyr knew this
I think serious Protestants who’ve given up everything to convert to Catholism know this better than most Cradle Catholics

 

[Vico]

I’m still trying to figure out what Sheed’s view was: A or B Theory?

I never saw any opinion on that (A, B, C series) from Frank Sheed (1897-1981), but he did write that time and the universe began together. From Theology and Sanity:

Eternity is not time, however much we may try to glorify the concept of time. The philosophic definition of eternity is in two Latin words, tota simul, which may be roughtly translated as “all at once”. God’s eternity means that He possesses the totality of what He is, not in successive acts as we do, but in one single act. Just as time is the duration of that which changes, eternity is the duration of that which simply is, the duration of the Being who, in one infinite act of being which does not change and does not cease, is all that He is, and all that He does.

 

[slh3016]

I never saw any opinion on that (A, B, C series) from Frank Sheed (1897-1981), but he did write that time and the universe began together. From Theology and Sanity:

Eternity is not time, however much we may try to glorify the concept of time. The philosophic definition of eternity is in two Latin words, tota simul, which may be roughtly translated as “all at once”. God’s eternity means that He possesses the totality of what He is, not in successive acts as we do, but in one single act. Just as time is the duration of that which changes, eternity is the duration of that which simply is, the duration of the Being who, in one infinite act of being which does not change and does not cease, is all that He is, and all that He does.

Yes, he says essentially the same thing in Theology for Beginners. I have the other book which will be my next read

No, he doesn’t say “A Theory” or “B Theory” in the book I’m reading and his concept of an eternal God corresponds perfectly with Craig’s UNTIL the moment the universe was created. Sheed doesn’t really elaborate anymore on his position, which makes me think that the one stated is applicable before and after the universe/time came into existence, whereas Craig’s view is, as we’ve already stated, that God is now temporal (A Theory of time) because of the creation of universe/time.

I’m still not convinced that Craig is correct nor am I convinced that God cannot be inside and outside of time even though he ascribes to the Trinity. In my mind (feeble as it is), God the Father (the Creator) can be eternal (outside of time) but the Son came into time at the Incarnation, while God the Father did not, meaning that God was both inside and outside of time (eternal).

 

[slh3016]

In the Mass we are enabled by God to not only share in his sacrifice and resurrection,but we obtain the bread of life whivh sustains us for our own resurrection .
We are like the Jews who ate the manna that sustained them but only nourished them for thrir journey ,they still died. The bread we receive will enable us never to die its the food of our own resurrection.
This requires true faith, it did 2000 yesrs ago ,it did throughout history,it certainly does in this synical age.
It’s the hardest teaching of God ,yet very simple,you don’t eat,or eat unworthily or without faith in Jesus’s words in John 6 you die.
Calling yourself Catholic, isn’t enough ,processing you have faith in Chtist but ignoring this is an empty faith and certainly not enough
Paul understood this
Peter understood this
Ignatius of Antioch knew this
Justin Martyr knew this
I think serious Protestants who’ve given up everything to convert to Catholism know this better than most Cradle Catholics

I don’t disagree with you at all. I’m a convert and I’m constantly amazed at the depth and breadth and soundness of Catholic theology. However, I’m discussing these matters with a deep thinking Protestant and I don’t want to espouse Sheed’s view of these things as the official “Catholic view” if indeed, William Lane Craig’s view is an acceptable Catholic view as well and doesn’t contradict any Catholic theology regarding Jesus’s sacrifice and the Mass.

I’m a little perplexed at what you were trying to implicate about my faith

 

[Vico]

Yes, he says essentially the same thing in Theology for Beginners. I have the other book which will be my next read

No, he doesn’t say “A Theory” or “B Theory” in the book I’m reading and his concept of an eternal God corresponds perfectly with Craig’s UNTIL the moment the universe was created. Sheed doesn’t really elaborate anymore on his position, which makes me think that the one stated is applicable before and after the universe/time came into existence, whereas Craig’s view is, as we’ve already stated, that God is now temporal (A Theory of time) because of the creation of universe/time.

I’m still not convinced that Craig is correct nor am I convinced that God cannot be inside and outside of time even though he ascribes to the Trinity. In my mind (feeble as it is), God the Father (the Creator) can be eternal (outside of time) but the Son came into time at the Incarnation, while God the Father did not, meaning that God was both inside and outside of time (eternal).

Really the Person of the Son did not come into being but is eternal (true for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The Person of the Son assumed the incarnation (the human soul and body of Jesus Christ). Also the Trinity is the Creator.

Veni, Creator Spiritus - sung at Pentecost
Come, Holy Spirit, Creator blest,
and in our souls take up Thy rest;
come with Thy grace and heavenly aid
to fill the hearts which Thou hast made.

Catechism:

291 "In the beginning was the Word. . . and the Word was God. . . all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made."129 The New Testament reveals that God created everything by the eternal Word, his beloved Son. In him "all things were created, in heaven and on earth… . all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."130 The Church’s faith likewise confesses the creative action of the Holy Spirit, the “giver of life”, “the Creator Spirit” (Veni, Creator Spiritus), the “source of every good”.131

129 Jn 1:1-3.
130 Col 1:16-17.
131 Cf. Nicene Creed: DS 150; Hymn “Veni, Creator Spiritus”; Byzantine Troparion of Pentecost Vespers, “O heavenly King, Consoler”.

Gospel of John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
…
14 *And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us: and we saw his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Dr. Craig is not Catholic so he may feel less restricted in assenting to dogma as Frank Sheed was. I am not saying that there is a conflict however.

 

[slh3016]

Really the Person of the Son did not come into being but is eternal (true for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The Person of the Son assumed the incarnation (the human soul and body of Jesus Christ). Also the Trinity is the Creator.

That wasn’t what I was implying I was meaning that God the Son entered time and space at the Incarnation, not that He came into being at the Incarnation. He existed eternally with the Father and Holy Spirit

If I understand Craig correctly, he seems to say that the only way that God can relate to us is by coming from the state of timelessness (eternity) into everlasting time and that He cannot go back to being timelessness. However, that may be true if one does not consider the Blessed Trinity in which each person is fully God yet three persons. Could not the Person of the Son come into time from eternity and yet God the Father remain in timelessness?

Or maybe this whole thing is like a cat chasing its tail

I just know that the more I contemplate the implications, the deeper my faith gets. As a Protestant, I never heard sermons based upon the deep mysteries of God. They were all shallow and superficial.