Is God evil?

[Mirdath]

one thing that separates the scriptures from the rest of writings and history written by winners is the scripture shows all its ups and downs.

If it was true that the winners write then why did we learn that David lusted? that jonah jonah endied up in the fish why, he was avoiding, Paul denied Christ, if it was a rewritten history then those things would have been left out. But they are there, good and bad, for all to see.

My issue is not with the foibles and flaws of the protagonists, but with the portrayal of the antagonists. Do you seriously believe that the Canaanites were entirely, irredeemably evil? Do you believe that Joe the carpenter from Jericho never came home after a day’s work, kissed his wife, patted the kids on the head, sat down to dinner, and talked and laughed with his family at the table? Do you believe they were all Hollywood villains?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

My issue is not with the foibles and flaws of the protagonists, but with the portrayal of the antagonists. Do you seriously believe that the Canaanites were entirely, irredeemably evil? Do you believe that Joe the carpenter from Jericho never came home after a day’s work, kissed his wife, patted the kids on the head, sat down to dinner, and talked and laughed with his family at the table? Do you believe they were all Hollywood villains?

Probably not, I imagine some were happy at dinner. But I dont think its the point. Charles Manson probably had some happy times. .

This is from ole wikipedia

According to the Book of Jubilees, the Israelite conquest of Canaan, and the curse, are attributed to Canaan’s steadfast refusal to join his elder brothers in Ham’s allotment beyond the Nile, and instead “squatting” on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean, within the inheritance delineated for Shem.

Ok so lets look at this part, first off lets get rid of Hollywood and the underdog guy scenario, who hes right and everyones wrong. Hes taking his brothers bit, hes not participating in fairness, whatever his problem is, his pride or whatever ya wanna call it, is stopping him from any good judgement.

Hes falling a bad way and dragging others in with him. And obviously thumbing at God and laughing the whole way. Greed, pride, lust hes hitting the famous 7 because hes following a different voice other than Gods. And the people are following him. Really what good is going to come of it.??

If you notice, this whole thing didnt build up in a day, God could have taken him out earlier, but Hes not rushing. But now, enough is enough and God says so. Its distasteful to us, but whats it like for God? Whats is like from His side? Here He wants to bless the people and gives them everything and they keep messing it up, then blaming & hating Him for it, and doing everything they can to punish God for simply being.

Now, thats familiar, we today have learned that part well.

Anyway, so God says enough. Lets think of Him for a bit. When Adam and Eve vacated, did God zot them? or did He set them up and help them live? And they kept trying to follow what He set up for them by honoring HIm. Read the scripture for same story repeated over and over. Hes firm but He always is merciful. As a Father you have to be. And may I add, good Father, He knows whats best for His children, and will try to encourage them. And when they fall, or mess up or thumb at Him, He will press on.

But when Joes heart goes hard, and he lies to himself, Joe knows what he should do but hes taken the other path, he has a choice and he stays with it, so Joe will suffer the consequence of his decision.

There is stories of those escaping Gods wrath, and generally its quite simple to do, but they must choose to take His hand. And strive to live not for themselves. Those that do live for themselves.

 

[nucatholic]

Read the book of Job and you can then discern whether or not God is evil. So your telling me to worship a God who makes a deal with the devil and allows him to kill off all a righteous man’s children and animals to test his faith. Wait a second, I thought an omniscient God would know whether or not a person’s faith was sincere and unwavering…guess not! Not only this, but finally he plagues good old Job with an illness but poor old Job never curses God. “God giveth and God taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord”. I say that is nonsense. Your telling me that God will make a deal with the deivl to make my life miserable just to test the strength of my faith which he should know anyway? There is no other way of interpreting the facts of the story any differently unless you are simply being dishonest and deceptive. The book of Job is clear and concise about the details of the supposed factual events of the story. If anyone else in our lives acted this way, we would call them evil, selfish and paranoid. Why is God outside the standard of human morality? Because he was created by primitive people with a different sense of morality and anyone who doesn’t realize this is simply deceiving him or herself.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Free:

I think you would get better responses from us if you asked us a few questions. If we ask you a question for which you don’t have the answer, you can just say, “I don’t know; what do you think?”

 

[Greg27]

As an existing being, i see overwheming evidence that there is a God, from the world around me, and Big Bang cosmology. I also do not see any problem with the existence of evil and the existence of a perfectly good God. I also experience a sense of duty to be a perfectly good being, and i believe that there are in fact objective moral values. As a Catholic however, i have a problem reconciling the God of the old testement, with the God of the new testement. Here is one of the problems…

1. The God of the old testement takes life; i have no problem with that, because God is only removing man from the material world. But i do have a problem when he asks a living created being to take the life of others. That doesn’t bother me to much, as long as the reason being is perfectly just, as i am humble enough to take in to account the possiblity that i may be in error in how i percieve what i am reading. But the lives of innocent children; why ask somebody else to do it, why doesn’t God himself take the life?

By now you will probably realise that i have doubts about the Morality of the old testement, and maybe my belief system as a whole.

There is the posibility that some of the stories are purposely mythical, with logical errors and even moral errors, reflecting isreals ignorant and incomplete perceptions of God at the time. This is the veiw i usually consider when reflecting on what has been written in the OT. The whole warrior God thing was big in those times.

My problem isn’t so much that God has been said to give orders to kill, its just that when atheists demand an explanation to how these seemingly horrific monstrous acts can occur, Christian philosophers always seem to avoid answering the question; i my self cringe when i am challenged about these things.

What im asking is, can somebody give me some positive info on the matter, or give me a link to some free philosophical arguements; prefferably “audios”.

Thanks for you time.

Peace.

I agree the Old Testament contains some brutal accounts and episodes. However, the same can also be found in other works of religious and mythical literature in the world. Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey were regarded as inspired by the Greeks, yet Greek Philosophers distanced themselves from it because of the evident immorality of the Gods and their capriciousness.

What atheists and agnostics and freethinkers see as wrong is that the God of the Old Testament also seems very cruel and capricious. Christian theologians try to make a number of counter-arguments to justify God’s behaviour but I have to agree none are really convincing. That leaves two alternatives; one can accept the recorded events as being true but not reducible to rational explanation, or one rejects the Bible and belief in God.

The mystery of the One who gives us being and existence is a problem all world religions try to face and come to terms with, but generally end in silence. I feel in relation to Christianity, the words of Job after seeing God face to face are appropriate when trying to explain the problem of evil: ‘Lord, knowledge of you is too wonderful for me.’

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Read the book of Job and you can then discern whether or not God is evil. So your telling me to worship a God who makes a deal with the devil and allows him to kill off all a righteous man’s children and animals to test his faith. Wait a second, I thought an omniscient God would know whether or not a person’s faith was sincere and unwavering…guess not! Not only this, but finally he plagues good old Job with an illness but poor old Job never curses God. “God giveth and God taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord”. I say that is nonsense. Your telling me that God will make a deal with the deivl to make my life miserable just to test the strength of my faith which he should know anyway? There is no other way of interpreting the facts of the story any differently unless you are simply being dishonest and deceptive. The book of Job is clear and concise about the details of the supposed factual events of the story. If anyone else in our lives acted this way, we would call them evil, selfish and paranoid. Why is God outside the standard of human morality? Because he was created by primitive people with a different sense of morality and anyone who doesn’t realize this is simply deceiving him or herself.

Why do people do Jobs thinking for him? His so called friends tried for days and he would not relent. Why should he relent for us today if he didnt then. It was his decision and for us today to say Gods bad because of what He did to Job is plain wrong.

Job should say if it was wrong and he did not. If fact he would not. How can we be judgemental of the man? He is to be a example of Christs sacrifice and a example to us. We can say we have it bad, but not as bad as Job. I wouldnt wish that on anyone, but Job was able to go through what he could handle. We should respect his strength not be mad, he had the will, we do not.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Read the book of Job and you can then discern whether or not God is evil. So your telling me to worship a God who makes a deal with the devil and allows him to kill off all a righteous man’s children and animals to test his faith. Wait a second, I thought an omniscient God would know whether or not a person’s faith was sincere and unwavering…guess not! Not only this, but finally he plagues good old Job with an illness but poor old Job never curses God. “God giveth and God taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord”. I say that is nonsense. Your telling me that God will make a deal with the deivl to make my life miserable just to test the strength of my faith which he should know anyway? There is no other way of interpreting the facts of the story any differently unless you are simply being dishonest and deceptive. The book of Job is clear and concise about the details of the supposed factual events of the story. If anyone else in our lives acted this way, we would call them evil, selfish and paranoid. Why is God outside the standard of human morality? Because he was created by primitive people with a different sense of morality and anyone who doesn’t realize this is simply deceiving him or herself.

I think you need to read Job more closely. I have. God is not evil.

Contrary to your bizzare claim, God made no deal (arrangement for mutual advantage) with Satan. If you disagree, please cite the chapter and verse were a “deal” was made. Nor did God make a “bet” with Satain, which is another common misunderstanding of those “usually utterly confused” as you describe yourself in your bio.

On the contrary, God simply allowed Satan to have freewill. God neither asked for nor demanded anything in return from Satan. He simply gave him freedom. Perhaps you think that when God gives his creatures freedom, it is a bad thing. I disagree. I kinda like freedom.

It is obvious to those who have actually studied the Book of Job, that Satan chose to use his freedom poorly, to do harm to Job and his loved ones. This Satan chose of his own freewill. This was the evil consequence of the wrong use of freedom on Satan’s part. Lesson: use freedom poorly, wicked things result.

It is a common misconception that God made a bet with Satan. Yet, there was nothing God was going to gain from Satan. Instead, the account speaks of a lesson that God wanted to teach to both Job and his friends, and to reveal to us. It was an important lesson, points to Christ. Sometimes the righteous suffer for the benefit of others.

Job and his friends erroneously believed that only the wicked suffer. Job and his friends were wrong. Even the righteous suffer. But when the righteous suffer while enduring steadfast in faith, they will gain even greater rewards from God, for themselves and others. Job was faithful throughout his suffering, which made this lesson clear.

God brought good ought of evil. The book you claim to have read is nothing like the Book of Job in Sacred Scripture. I recommend you more carefully study that which you seem “utterly confused” about.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hey Dave

thanks I stand corrected on the understanding of the bet thing, I must admit when a lie is told enough one does believe it.

buts thats why we talk and discuss stuff to learn right?

 

[nucatholic]

Job 2:3 “He still holds fast to his innocence although you incited me against him to ruin him without cause.” NAB

After this God takes the bait and allows Satan to do it again, this time by making him ill. We can see that God’s intention was not initially to teach Job a lesson because he clearly states “to ruin him without cause.” If God was truly intending to teach Job a lesson from the beginning, then the whole bit about Satan is unnecessary and counterproductive. So even if the moral is that God brought good out of the situation, it started out with God succumbing to Satan’s claim that Job would cave under pressure.

Also, I generally am confused often but this is not because I am not diligent or exhaustive in my scholarship. It is simply that I am open minded and I consider the best arguments from both sides of the story. The more you learn about the history of ideas, arguments, philosophy and perspectives on all aspects of human life, the more unsure you become in your beliefs. Absolute certainty is a sure sign of ignorance or insecurity. It was inappropriate for you to mention this part of my profile several times in such a way as you did.

 

[blessedtoo]

Wait a second, I thought an omniscient God would know whether or not a person’s faith was sincere and unwavering…guess not!
Your telling me that God will make a deal with the deivl to make my life miserable just to test the strength of my faith which he should know anyway?

The evil that exists and is inflicted upon man is not permitted by God so that we can “prove” to Him that we have faith. It is, rather, so that WE may learn how profoundly we love HIM and how abundant is the GIFT of faith that He bestows on us.

There is no other way of interpreting the facts of the story any differently unless you are simply being dishonest and deceptive. The book of Job is clear and concise about the details of the supposed factual events of the story.

Actually, there are numerous ways of interpreting the brilliant book of Job. Countless books have been written by both Jewish and Christian scholars and theologians to assist in fully understanding this rich and wise love poem to God. I highly doubt you have pegged the definitive meaning yourself.

Why is God outside the standard of human morality?

So you are of the belief that our human standard of morality is greater or higher than that of God’s? If I believed that man was the final arbiter of morality and truth, I too would be deeply troubled and confused.

 

[blessedtoo]

You know, I saw a real life, living, breathing Job interviewed on 60 minutes last night. He is one of a handful of Holocaust survivors still with us and he spoke of how every member of his family was gassed within two days of his arrival at Dachau. He was 13 years old. He remarked that while he remained in the camp, he knew there wasn’t one soul on earth who thought of him, prayed for him, or knew of him - everyone who would have loved him was dead. At the end of the intereview, he pulled up his shirt sleeve to show his tattoo from the camp. And he said that when he is laid in his coffin, he wants his sleeve to remain rolled up so that when God sees that mark on his arm, he will escort him right to the front of the line.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

blessedtoo

wow there are some things in this world we will never know the half of.

 

[blessedtoo]

blessedtoo

wow there are some things in this world we will never know the half of.

You are so right. But the beautiful witness of this man’s love for God made my heart yearn to meet him someday in heaven.

 

[Clovis]

Joh:4:21: Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh:4:22: Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh:4:23: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh:16:12: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh:16:25: These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

These texts are proof that there are many things still deeply laid secret in the bosom of Christianity.

 

[freesoulhope]

Not that this is an excuse, but there is an arrogant assumption going around on this thread, that anybody can be a theological expect on the bible. Some of the Bible is hundreds of years old, yet I see allot of people on this thread, who are not expects, claiming that they have the right interpretation. For that reason, allot of the arguments that are made in favor of God being evil, I simply cannot take seriously, like some theist claims that I must just accept that God is good and that’s that, and do not question; I cannot accept that line of reasoning. I have faith that God is good; what I want to know is how those things in the bible can be reconciled to a good God; if nobody knows, then fair enough.

What I would say on my part, is that the killing of child is evil because you are destroying “Gods creation”; not because he or she is a “child”; in other words, the true “Objective” value of a child, is the “ultimate source” of the Childs being. The arguments from the atheist camps, are based only upon a false sense of morality; the fallacious idea that some thing is immoral. There is no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil, if we live in a world where God does not exist. Such concepts are totally subjective to the culture in which they are born in, and have no objective truth about them, other then what somebody has made up to suit themselves, understandably in a scary world; a world where the fittest survive and the weak get pushed to the side.

If God does exist, which I believe he does, and Big Bang cosmology, to my mind, seems to show this to be true, then morality is ultimately a product of this super nature, since God has given me the capacity to know that something is wrong, because Gods perfection reveals the imperfections that are oposed to it; a reflection of an ultimately perfect being upon which we measure whether or not an act is perfect or imperfect/moral or immoral.
It would simply be unreasonable of me (if the God of the universe is the God of Christianity) to pass judgment upon a being by which I measure whether or not something is right or wrong.

To my mind, there are three possibilities.

1. There are human errors in the bible,
2. There is a Good reason for God s actions, and it’s a matter of interpretation, or we simply do not understand why God has done what he has done.
3. The God of the Old Testament is not the God of the universe.
   (An idea that was heretical in the old days but was believed by some.)

I know that the atheists, that have joined us on this thread, would very much like to entertain the 3rd possibility, but since you would wish to entertain the possibility that the world “popped out of nothing”, you simply do not have any authority on this matter.

The “Deist”, on the other hand, is free to comment and be critical; however, although your comments are of value to me, I opened this thread to learn about my faith (Catholicism) and the scriptural interpretations that I might acquire about the behavior of God in the Old Testament. I not really interested in debates at this moment in time. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Peace and God bless.

 

[blessedtoo]

Not that this is an excuse, but there is an arrogant assumption going around on this thread, that anybody can be a theological expect on the bible.

That’s true. I am wondering if you read any of the links that were suggested, especially the one I posted. In addition, if you are looking for theological expertise, it might be helpful to read some of the early Church Fathers.

I have faith that God is good; what I want to know is how those things in the bible can be reconciled to a good God; if nobody knows, then fair enough.

It’s wonderful that you are keeping an open heart and mind. I think it’s safe to say that there are many interpretations of the bible that are capable of explaining the OT in a way that will help you come to terms with the Catholic belief that He is all good. I don’t think there is a Christian alive who hasn’t wrestled with this issue and there are certainly no new questions today that haven’t been asked, and answered, before.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Not that this is an excuse, but there is an arrogant assumption going around on this thread, that anybody can be a theological expect on the bible. Some of the Bible is hundreds of years old, yet I see allot of people on this thread, who are not expects, claiming that they have the right interpretation. For that reason, allot of the arguments that are made in favor of God being evil, I simply cannot take seriously, like some theist claims that I must just accept that God is good and that’s that, and do not question; I cannot accept that line of reasoning. I have faith that God is good; what I want to know is how those things in the bible can be reconciled to a good God; if nobody knows, then fair enough.
…

Free:

My oldest son, when he was a child, wrote on a bookmark he kept in his Bible, “I know God is real because every question i’ve ever had about Him has an answer.” My son is more intelligent than i think i was at his age, but there are certainly atheists who know more about a great many things than he does. Why is it, then, that they do not understand the simple truth that he understands? It’s not for lack of intelligence, it’s for lack of wisdom. It’s simply unwise to say, “I know, without a doubt, that God does not exist!”

Whenever an atheist says this to me, i smile and ask this question:

“In all the scholarly journals in all the libraries and universities and Web servers throughout all the world, what percentage of that accumulated knowledge do you know and fully comprehend?”

When she says she does not know, i suggest that she is more intelligent than i am an might know as much as 0.001%, and ask her if this is reasonable and she says it is. My next question is this:"How do you know that in the 99.999% of all the knowledge in all the world that you know nothing about there is no convincing evidence that the God the Bible describes exists?"I have never yet had an atheist answer this question. The truth, of course, is that it is impossible to know for certain God does not exist. The more reasonable position to take is that of the agnostic. Rather than say, “I know for certain there is no God” the agnostic says, “I’m not yet convinced there is no God; show me what evidence you have.”

One thing about the truth is you don’t have to defend it, the truth defends itself. Another thing about truth is you don’t have to be intelligent to have it (though it sometimes helps to be smart enough to articulate it or understand why it is true). My son is not more intellectually adept than most atheists, he is simply more blessed than they are. Jesus prayed:

*“I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.” *(Matthew 11:25)

 

[Gareth]

That is why faith comes before reason (as I’m continually harping on).

No that’s why you’re continually harping on

The NEED to believe is the first “reason” to believe, but it has nothing to do with human “reasoning”.

WANTING or NEEDing something to be true doesn’t make it true. This person virtually admits…

God isn’t evil, he’s imaginary.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Job 2:3 “He still holds fast to his innocence although you incited me against him to ruin him without cause.” NAB

The literal translation of Job 2:3 is “thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!’” (Young’s Literal Translation).

Yet, neither translation supports the absurd claim that there was a “deal” made (arrangement for mutual advantage). God gained nothing (as before and after the account, God lacked nothing). Satan gained nothing. ***The one who clearly benefitted from it all seems to be Job!! ***I pray God is moved against me in a similar way, just as he was moved against Job!

God did indeed give Satan the freewill to commit evil acts against Job, saying: “to Satan, ‘Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand,’” later giving Satan even more freedom, saying, “Behold, he is in your power; only spare his life.” This is the only sense in which God was moved against Job.

Yet, what is the consequence of this freedom which God gives, even when exercised by those who would use it for wickedness? God knew what Satan would do. God also knew how Job would react. God also knew that in the end, Job would gain from the experience, “the LORD restored the fortunes of Job…and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.” (Job 42:10).

The more you learn about the history of ideas, arguments, philosophy and perspectives on all aspects of human life, the more unsure you become in your beliefs."

That’s not my experience. I may have sought out to create a heresy of my own making. But when I put the final touches upon it, I discovered it was orthodoxy.

Absolute certainty is a sure sign of ignorance or insecurity.

Errrrrr…2+3=5. Only the ignorant or insecure would claim to know such a thing with absolute certainty, however.

It was inappropriate for you to mention this part of my profile several times in such a way as you did.

Are you absolutely certain it was inappropriate? I’m not so certain about that.

Furthermore, your certainty with regard to your characterization of the Book Job is worthy of much doubt. Perhaps with more diligent study of Sacred Scripture, you will begin to have doubts about your doubts.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

With regard to the original post, first the question must be asked, “What is the objective standard of what is good or evil?”

If we cannot come to a common understanding with regard to this answer, then the rest is difficult to discuss. As Catholics, we use Catholic epistemology that answers the above question: God.

Thus, we come to believe things are true based upon three kinds of evidence:

1. Experience
2. Reason
3. Testimony of others

If we believe behavior X is good or behavior Y is evil, we come to that believe because of the kind of evidence that I’ve described above. I can think of no other evidence (perhaps one might add something else?).

From a Catholic perspective, the PRINCIPLE norm for determining good or evil moral acts, is from testimony–that is, God’s testimony as promulgated by the magisterium of the Church. If one’s experience and reason conflict with the testimony of God Himself as promulgated by the Divinely established magisterium, then one’s experience or reason must be flawed. Many have difficulty admitting that the flaw must reside within their own reason or experience, and prefer to blame the teachings of God as presented by the Church. But that is contrary to a Catholic epistemology.

A watch, for example, behaves either GOOD or BAD if it behaves in accord with its purpose. If a watch doesn’t keep time, it does not act in accord with its purpose, and keeps time badly. Humans are no different. God is no different. Yet, who knows God’s purpose perfectly enough to assert that He has behaved contrary to his own purpose?

Our purpose as human beings is to know, love, and serve God. It certainly is not to judge God. In the service of God, we must behave according to His will for us for the purpose he created us. The Lord is the giver of life. He is also the taker of life. He can give and He can take life directly, but He also gives and takes life through others.

He gives the gift of life with every new breath a person takes. This is a undeserved gift. If God were to decide not to continue to give this gift, there would be no breach of justice in doing so for any person, or even the entire world. Thus, the Lord of life decides both whether we shall continue to live, or the manner in which we shall die.

If God should decide to punish others through rulers instead of directly, then this too cannot be a breach of justice. For instance, St. Paul describes how such rulers are doing the ministry of God through the use of the sword in executing the wrath of God upon evildoers.

Rom 13:3-4 "For rulers are not a terror to good conduct…he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. "

This New Testament view is the same as in the Old Testament.

When the Hebrews were told to utterly destroy the Amelakites by God, it was no less just than when God flooded the earth. The Lord Himself decided it, and he is the objective standard for what is good and evil.

To try to attribute to God an immoral act is to claim that there is a different standard than God as to what is good and evil, which should be trusted other than God. If this is the claim, that what is the more trustworthy standard of moral behavior than the being which created everything? Our limited experience? Our fallible reason?