Is God Experienced?

[FloridaCatholic]

God knows our thoughts and our hearts. He knows our pain

 

[spockrates]

Knowledge can be had without experience, while experience can confirm knowledge, at least for a created, non-omniscient being. And God can actually infuse knowledge in fact.

So, you’re good with this definition, at least for the moment?

Knowledge is to know about something and what it entails. It is not experiencing something by way of participation.

 

[fhansen]

We often learn by experience but that’s not necessary as see it. No expert here tho.

 

[spockrates]

God knows our thoughts and our hearts. He knows our pain

“You have searched me, Lord, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely. You hem me in behind and before, and you lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.”
(Psalm 139:1-6)

While I can see that God knows the words I think, I’m not so sure he knows the hatred, lust and envy I feel in the way I experience them. Take lust, for example. To know the lust I feel, wouldn’t God have to feel lust? Or hate. To know the hatred I feel, wouldn’t God have to feel hatred?

I mean, you or I can empathize with the sinful feelings others have, because we’ve sinned by having the same feelings. In contrast to us, God doesn’t sin, so how can he feel the same sinful feelings?

 

[Sedona]

That’s easy. Yes, God is experienced, and He told us so through the great Oracle Jim Hendrix.

Now excuse me, while I kiss the sky…

All the best!

 

[spockrates]

@Sedona: Thanks for stopping by!

 

[spockrates]

We often learn by experience but that’s not necessary as see it. No expert here tho.

I know! Right? So, I don’t see a difficulty, there. For one might say, “Experience is a teacher,” but still say, “A teacher gives knowledge, but isn’t the knowledge she gives!”

 

[spockrates]

We often learn by experience but that’s not necessary as see it. No expert here tho.

After sleeping on it, it’s apparent you are saying knowledge is not perception. So, I can feel physical pain or pleasure, but this isn’t knowledge. I can feel emotional pain - such as rage - or pleasure - such as joy. But this is not knowledge. We can have knowledge about these perceptions - such as their causes and their effects - but this is not the same as experiencing them - the feelings they evoke in us - ourselves.

That being the case, we might say God does have knowledge of our sinful emotions and emotions we feel as a result of our own sins - their causes and effects on us - without experiencing them himself - without experiencing the emotions they evoke in us himself.

The upshot, I think is God cannot say, “I feel all of your pain.” For although he knows we feel lust, hatred, envy, shame and guilt, he doesn’t know how lust, hatred, envy, sham and guilt feel.

These sinful emotions and emotions caused by our own sins are foreign and the opposite of him. They cannot be part of God’s experience, since to experience lust is to be lustful, and to experience hatred is to be hateful, and to experience envy is to be envious, and to experience guilt is to be guilty, so on. But God is never lustful, hateful, envious, guilty and the like. These are things God cannot be without ceasing to be God, I think.

But what are your thoughts?

 

[fhansen]

God is so vastly, infinitely, superior to us that it’s just plain hard to know what He knows. And “in Him we live and move and have our being.” (Acts 17:28) He knows more about us than we do, and, of course, He created the very passions and desires you mention. And we’re made in His image. And when we see Jesus we see the Father, such that everything Jesus did was how God would act, how God did act, if He were human. And Jesus demonstrated plenty of passion. Lust is just normal sexual desire twisted and perverted and over-dwelt upon; it’s to make pleasure our god even if the pleasure, in itself, is not sinful. Same with gluttony. Guilt and shame are the natural reactions to doing wrong-God couldn’t experience them but could certainly know what they are-and why they would occur. We can know “what God is”, BTW, but not because we’re naturally capable of it but because we’re given that knowledge by Him via the Beatific Vision. This is sort of the reverse of how God may know what’s going on in us without actually experiencing it due to His own nature being opposed to it. He’s above it all; He knows everything, and more; what more can we say?

 

[StashLazarus]

God doesn’t experience the hatred of the murderer, He would be repulsed by that. God does experience the emotions and the wisdom that is experienced because of the murder. The shame of the killer and the sorrow of the victim’s family are experienced by God as God shares our journey to a degree that we are not aware.

I believe this is the main reason for creation, not there aren’t other reasons for creation.

 

[Gorgias]

When you say, “God is incapable of ‘experiencing’ something in the same sense that we do,” do you mean experiencing something is never the same as knowing something? That is, are experiences never knowledge, though one can have knowledge about experiences?

Physical experience is one way of coming to know something. Specifically, it’s one way that a physical being can come to know something.

Moreover, ‘experience’ isn’t ‘knowledge’… although experience can lead to knowledge.

Experience is not the only way of ‘knowing’.

Let’s consider an example: When my wife was pregnant with our first son, she began to pass a kidney stone, which sent her into labor. In the hospital, she passed the kidney stone, first then delivered the baby. Afterwards, she said passing the kidney stone was more painful than labor.

Would you say this revelation was or wasn’t knowledge?

Not knowledge. If you haven’t passed a kidney stone, you don’t “know” how painful it is. As you’ll never give birth to a baby, you’ll never “know” which is more painful.

However, the information your wife relayed is something that you could think about, and decide whether or not to hold as true. You might assert that you “know about” passing kidney stones or giving birth… but that’s not exactly the same thing, is it?

(BTW – we do say that God has knowledge of particulars, so He does know all things – not just “experience” or “know about” them.)

 

[spockrates]

God doesn’t experience the hatred of the murderer, He would be repulsed by that. God does experience the emotions and the wisdom that is experienced because of the murder. The shame of the killer and the sorrow of the victim’s family are experienced by God as God shares our journey to a degree that we are not aware.

I believe this is the main reason for creation, not there aren’t other reasons for creation.

Yeah, yeah! You might be right. But if you are, does that mean omniscience isn’t knowing everything, since God would not know the experience of one’s hate?

 

[StashLazarus]

Yeah, yeah! You might be right. But if you are, does that mean omniscience isn’t knowing everything, since God would not know the experience of one’s hate?

The experience that God gains through creation was always part of God. For this reason, I believe that the reason for creation must be an inevitable reflection of God’s unchanging essence. The infinite God must have the wisdom that is gained by the experience of creation, it is impossible that the infinite God would not have this wisdom. Creation must exist for the wisdom that is gained by creation to exist.

But to address your point, I think that hate and evil are merely tools that are necessary to gain wisdom, but there is nothing in hatred or evil to be desired.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates:

When you say, “God is incapable of ‘experiencing’ something in the same sense that we do,” do you mean experiencing something is never the same as knowing something? That is, are experiences never knowledge, though one can have knowledge about experiences?

Physical experience is one way of coming to know something. Specifically, it’s one way that a physical being can come to know something.

Agreed! Would you agree that it’s the only way to know some things?

Moreover, ‘experience’ isn’t ‘knowledge’… although experience can lead to knowledge.

Makes sense.

Experience is not the only way of ‘knowing’.

True.

Let’s consider an example: When my wife was pregnant with our first son, she began to pass a kidney stone, which sent her into labor. In the hospital, she passed the kidney stone, first then delivered the baby. Afterwards, she said passing the kidney stone was more painful than labor.

Would you say this revelation was or wasn’t knowledge?

Not knowledge. If you haven’t passed a kidney stone, you don’t “know” how painful it is. As you’ll never give birth to a baby, you’ll never “know” which is more painful.

However, the information your wife relayed is something that you could think about, and decide whether or not to hold as true. You might assert that you “know about” passing kidney stones or giving birth… but that’s not exactly the same thing, is it?

(BTW – we do say that God has knowledge of particulars, so He does know all things – not just “experience” or “know about” them.)

Yeah, yeah! But I can only infer my wife’s assertion about the degree of pain is true. I cannot know this with the same certainty. So, I wonder how God can know the pains he has never experienced. I mean, he can know the physical reactions my wife had to the pains, but he could not know the pains themselves, since he does not experience them any more than I do, I think.

To experience my wife’s pain, he would have to indwell her, similar to the way - but, of corse not the same way as - he indwelled Christ and felt his stuffing on the cross.

 

[FloridaCatholic]

Didn’t Jesus grow in wisdom? So I guess Jesus experienced something new. I don’t know. Good question.

 

[spockrates]

Didn’t Jesus grow in wisdom? So I guess Jesus experienced something new. I don’t know. Good question.

Jesus the man? I’d say yes. For an infant always has much to learn. Jesus the Son of God? I’d say no. However, if he lives outside out time (and so is and always ha been in the future) then all he experienced while in the flesh he would have always remembered, and so already knew! Right?

 

[FloridaCatholic]

I don’t know. Sounds fishy

 

[Gorgias]

Agreed! Would you agree that it’s the only way to know some things?

No, although I might agree that, in some contexts, it’s the only way for humans to know some things.

So, I wonder how God can know the pains he has never experienced.

Because He created us and sustains our very existence. It doesn’t mean that we believe in panentheism – that God is everything – but it does mean that He is omniscient. He knows. Full stop.

he indwelled Christ and felt his stuffing on the cross

That’s a theological error / heresy, known as patripassionism.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates:

Agreed! Would you agree that it’s the only way to know some things?

No, although I might agree that, in some contexts, it’s the only way for humans to know some things.

How about a different example, such as an angel, who has not fallen? Would you agree it would not know what it feels like to hate, feel shame, feel guilty, or even feel physical pain?

So, I wonder how God can know the pains he has never experienced.

Because He created us and sustains our very existence. It doesn’t mean that we believe in panentheism – that God is everything – but it does mean that He is omniscient. He knows. Full stop.

Yeah, I don’t know! I mean, what does omniscience mean? Consider omnipotence. Does it mean God can do anything? If we ask if God can make a weight heavier than he can lift, we’d say, no. God can only do what is good and in his nature to do.

Now, consider omniscience. Does it mean that God knows everything? Or does it mean God can only know what is good and in his nature to know?

he indwelled Christ and felt his stuffing on the cross

That’s a theological error / heresy, known as patripassionism.

And “stuffing” is also an error in spelling! @&$# auto correct! LOL!

 

[spockrates]

I don’t know. Sounds fishy

…said Peter when Christ said to try casting his net on the other side of the boat! LOL!