Is God fair with Hell or Heaven

  • Thread starter Thread starter thirddec
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

thirddec

Guest
Just a little scenario to elicit some discussion. 2 muslim terrorists who were identical in their adherance to their faith and lived similar lives went out on a rampage of murder and mayhem. They were completely believing in the correctness of their cause. The police shot and killed one but the other just got wounded. The survivor after going to prison finally realised they were so wrong and converted to christianity and was full of repentance for his crime and previous life. Spent the rest of his life in prayer and fasting and died an old man after recieving last rights.

Did the first go to Hell; did the second get saved from Hell. If God allowed the second to live and was thus given an opportunity to be saved that the other wasn’t was it fair ?

Is Justice and fairness related?

Ok guys plenty there to let rip with lets see how the thread developes. I’m just gonna watch and see what I can learn. 😃

Love and Respect
 
God is justice, and mercy! 🙂

Maybe they both deserved punishment, but mercy was shown the the second one who was given more “time” because he was “spared” by God. Or maybe God didn’t spare him, but the police officer did…because he didn’t get enough sleep last night and was off a little bit on his aim…causing a non-fatal wound. One person surviving might have been spared due to human free will, not divine intervention.

But, since God exists outside of time, and time is an illusion, they both had the same opportunity to accept or reject God. One rejected, one accepted. This will probably be impossible for us to understand because we are limited by time…but I would think that in God’s eyes, they had equal opportunity to choose.

Interesting material for discussion though!
 
I won’t bite, but I’ll nibble just a wee bit.

For me these kind of questions are, um, well, I want to say ‘silly’ or something but that’s not my point.

Since God is all-knowing, all-loving, as well as merciful and just to boot, we KNOW that the two in your example WILL be treated with the fairness and mercy that only God is capable of. It may be an interesting mental exercise to think of the probabilities, but nothing more.

We also do not know what may happen at the moment of death – perhaps in the brief moments as mortal life is ending a person can see the Truth and maybe spend time in purgatory rather than going straight to hell. :confused: God only knows.
 
Friend :),

To be honest, I think this question falls under the heading: “thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test” or, perhaps, “what is that to thee? follow thou me”! I don’t mean to be harsh, but such questions are not your concern. You are not a Muslim terrorist, and your moral life tells you that you ought not to be. Pray for those who are terrorists, that they may all become Christians, not only half of them! 😉

I think God deals well with those who ignore the natural law imprinted in our hearts. Remember that though they may be ignorant of our Lord as terrorists, they still contain the innate will toward the cardinal virtues of justice, fortitude, temperance, and prudence. Anyone who goes around killing innocent people is sinning gravely against justice whether he’s a child of the true Triune God or not.
 
Glorious i don’t take it as harsh; I just find exploring deepens faith ; the truth is out there and God wont dodge a question set with a good heart. I bet by the time this thread finishes we will all learn something. Keep up the posts. 👍

Love and Respect
 
Whatever the Reginator say`s must be at the least close,he is my only friend,cheque mate!!
 
Just a little scenario to elicit some discussion. 2 muslim terrorists who were identical in their adherance to their faith and lived similar lives went out on a rampage of murder and mayhem. They were completely believing in the correctness of their cause. The police shot and killed one but the other just got wounded. The survivor after going to prison finally realised they were so wrong and converted to christianity and was full of repentance for his crime and previous life. Spent the rest of his life in prayer and fasting and died an old man after recieving last rights.

Did the first go to Hell; did the second get saved from Hell. If God allowed the second to live and was thus given an opportunity to be saved that the other wasn’t was it fair ?

Is Justice and fairness related?

Ok guys plenty there to let rip with lets see how the thread developes. I’m just gonna watch and see what I can learn. 😃

Love and Respect
This question doesn’t really bother me, as I feel that the man was most likely not spared by God, he was probably spared due to position of organs in his body, the place that the cop shot him, the way the bullet penetrated his body, the strength of his physique, his will to live, and many other concerns that have nothing at all to do with God’s intervention.

My question, in regards to this question, is: If the terrorists thought that what they were doing was moral, and were doing it in the name of a cause they truly believed was good and for God, will they still be held guilty for their sin since they had neither proper knowledge or intent?
 
Firstly, Justice is defined as giving to one what one is due. In justice (not being opposed to mercy), one is damned and another is pardoned forever. The question should be, “What is each one due by the demands of justice?”

Secondely, I think that perhaps this question presumes that all souls are identical, that the experiences of persons are the same, and that all receive the same graces (though all souls receive what is necessary for them to be saved from hell).

Each soul will receive all the time in this life that it needs. Each soul receives sufficient grace to come to a spirit of true repentance and love for God, even if not all souls come to an equal understanding of Him.

In your hypothetical scenario, we don’t know all that has transpired in the lives of both terrorists prior to commiting their actions.

The natural law is written on all of our hearts. Even if none of us had ever heard any teaching of the Catholic Church or even ever heard the name of Jesus, every single one of us (that are not impeded by some psychological disorder) are fully aware that murder is wrong. We can live our lives in such a way that little by little we chip away at our natural consciences and become warped so that we will do many, many things that we previously knew to be absolutely wrong. God will always give as much grace as we need in order to comply with His law. For those outside the Church, they will receive all the grace that they need in order to follow the natural law. How many natural religions warp the minds and hearts of humans by teaching them to violate the natural law? In my opinion, they all do, to one extent or another.

So, having refused the grace to follow the natural law and refrain from murdering his fellow humans, I would speculate that the first hypothetical terrorist is indeed damned; although, no one could know the state of his heart at the moment of death. If he were indeed invincibly ignorant, it could be that while under fire from the police he cooperated with the grace of true repentance for his sins and perfect contrition to what little he knows of God immediately prior to being struck with a bullet and dying. All in a flash of a moment he would have become the thief on the cross, muttering to God that his own death was true justice.

“Believing” with natural faith in a natural religion will never be sufficient reason to justify murder. If the religion of your birth conditions you to murder others all day long, does it remove your obligation to cooperate with grace and obey the natural law which all humans have written on their hearts? No.

As far as why one may be given more time on this earth and end up being saved and another is immediately required for judgement for the same action, I would submit to you that our human souls are not identical, and so we do not, in justice, require the same temporal treatment.

God’s perfect justice is served, but we can’t see it yet.
 
Pray for those who are terrorists, that they may all become Christians, not only half of them! 😉
That is very clever!!😃

Our Lord answers your question in the parable of the workers in the vineyard (St. Matthew 1:20). The repentant Muslim is like the worker who arrives at the eleveth hour - he receives the same denarius as the worker who arrived at sunrise.

For my sake, I pray that the Father is not “fair” - at least, not by the world’s standards!
 
Just a little scenario to elicit some discussion. 2 muslim terrorists who were identical in their adherance to their faith and lived similar lives went out on a rampage of murder and mayhem. They were completely believing in the correctness of their cause. The police shot and killed one but the other just got wounded. The survivor after going to prison finally realised they were so wrong and converted to christianity and was full of repentance for his crime and previous life. Spent the rest of his life in prayer and fasting and died an old man after recieving last rights.

Did the first go to Hell; did the second get saved from Hell. If God allowed the second to live and was thus given an opportunity to be saved that the other wasn’t was it fair ?

Is Justice and fairness related?

Ok guys plenty there to let rip with lets see how the thread developes. I’m just gonna watch and see what I can learn. 😃

Love and Respect
God told us what we need to do to be saved. He gave us free will to choose.

In your example the first one chose to reject Christ and therefore died in a state of mortal sin. He would go to Hell.
The second one chose Christ and died in a state of grace and would be saved.
 
To expand on what COLOS said, justice is rendering to both God and one’s neighbor what is due to them.

Therefore, it would be unjust of us to suppose that God is not all Merciful - because we would not be giving Him his due. Another thing that comes to mind when I read the title of the thread Is God fair with Hell or Heaven, is that if we don’t think He is fair, it means we think we have a better idea than Him …:hmmm:… I seem to remember someone(s) in the Garden of Eden having a similar idea … funny how some things don’t ever really seem to change much.

The proper order or perspective according to St. Thomas Aquinas is that Mercy does not deny Justice - Mercy presupposes Justice ; in simpler terms , before knowing we’re going to be spared, we have to know what we deserved (what we’re being spared from).

The person in your first example could have just as easily gotten into Heaven if he had contrition in his heart as he was dying or, if as he experienced the particular judgement were to ask for God’s Mercy.

Simillarly, if by the “last rites” you mean the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick, the second guy could have still messed it up afterwards, or perhaps he wasn’t totally open to the sacrament when he received it - we don’t know; or as the Reginator says, “God only knows.”

Where so many of us seem to trip up is by reducing God who “the Heavens cannot contain” to a being that only our feeble limited minds can contain. The story of St. Augustine and the little child by the seashore provides us with an adjustment.

If we’re interested in a personal view of How our Blessed Lord describes his Mercy and Justice to us in terms we might be able to grasp, St, Faustina Kowalska’s diary is a good read. (Here’s her Diary in a different layout which might be easier to read).

Several excerpts :
  1. On one of her visits to Pugatory
Diary No. 20 (Vision of Purgatory)

"One day I asked the Lord, ‘Lord, who else should I pray for?’ Jesus said that on the following night He would let me know for whom I should always pray for.

The following night, I saw my Guardian Angel who asked me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames which were burning them did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call her ‘The Star of the Sea.’ She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of the prison of suffering. * which said, My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it. Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls."
  1. Our Blessed Lord describing his Mercy to St. Faustina:
My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity.”

(so you don’t have to dig for this second one, it can be read at the top of this page.

In real life, God will always offer His Mercy to the sinner - even at the very last possible moment. The key, is that we must accept.

How could we ever answer whether God is just, or fair , or not, with one or another when his Mercy is so great we can’t even conceive it ? Well, if His Mercy, as He says, surpasses even our own best estimation or concept of mercy in such immeasurable superabundance to a point we can’t even imagine, then, we with our flawed minds must certainly say He is fair … much fairer than any human could ever even imagine being.

To say or imply anything less, is to risk not giving God his due, or, as I heard a priest say in one sermon: :We humans, who are created in God’s image, seem to have this tendency to recreate God in our own image."

:)*
 

Therefore, it would be unjust of us to suppose that God is not all Merciful - because we would not be giving Him his due.

🙂
I don’t believe that I’ve ever heard it put that way before. Well said! 🙂

Peace,
Andrew
 
God gives us all a sense of what is right and wrong since we are made in His image and likeness. On an individual basis, God is the perfect judge of each man’s justification. But just because you believe in, for instance, Hitler or Stalin’s cause and murdered people because of that, will not necessarily serve as a reason for justification at one’s Particular Judgement.
 
so is this a fair summary so far

We can never hope to understand the full nature of God including his Justice and his Mercy and we must always go to God in ****Trust of his Ultimate Justice and in Hope of His Infinate Mercy, and leave God to to Gods job.

Love and Respect
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top