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Cybophonia
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Is God fair? Provide your best proofs and examples.
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MatthewTrainor
Guest
God’s fairness is a given and not subject to logical proofs. Our capacity to understand God’s infinite justice is limited by our finite nature.Is God fair? Provide your best proofs and examples.
No, God is not fair. He is fully and perfectly Just.Is God fair? Provide your best proofs and examples.
Because God is Just, it follows that everything he does is also Just, no matter what that is.
He is not “fair” in our human sense of the word. Clearly he gives more to some and deprives others. But regardless of what he gives or deprives, to whom and from whom, it is Just.
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Cybophonia
Guest
Prove it!No, God is not fair. He is fully and perfectly Just.
Because God is Just, it follows that everything he does is also Just, no matter what that is.
He is not “fair” in our human sense of the word. Clearly he gives more to some and deprives others. But regardless of what he gives or deprives, to whom and from whom, it is Just.
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Cybophonia
Guest
Why is life so unjust sometimes?God’s fairness is a given and not subject to logical proofs. Our capacity to understand God’s infinite justice is limited by our finite nature.
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MatthewTrainor
Guest
It only seems unjust because we always have imperfect information. I think what you are really asking is another form of “Why do bad things happen to good people?” The best answer I can give is that this life on earth isn’t everything. God balances the scales in eternity.Why is life so unjust sometimes?
The oldest person ever recorded lived almost 123 years. If someone were to live 150 years with nothing but pain and misery, and remained faithful to God, praying as Jesus did in the garden “Thy will be done Lord,” then God has all of eternity to repay that person with His beatific vision. All of the possible suffering in this life is (literally) infinitely small compared to the unlimited and unending joy of Heaven.
See also the Book of Job
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Dorothy
Guest
While we are still on this earth there will be trials and tribulations. Our Lord gives us what we need in order to get through them and be spiritually strengthened. Life is short. We can use it to gain the victory with Christ and be with Him in His Kingdom forever.Why is life so unjust sometimes?
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Rbaker
Guest
I think that if God were a human, he would not be “fair”. But since he is a supreme perfect being, that whatever he decides, is a perfect decision. We may struggle in this world, but he gives us the opportunity to become our perfect selves in the next. Heaven will make all the “unfairness” go away.
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spiderweb
Guest
Appearances can be deceiving. It may be raining on a “just” person and the sun shining on an “unjust” person and if that is all we see by appearances, that seems really unfair.That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who makes his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and rain upon the just and the unjust. Matthew 5:45
God being outside of time knows what is good for us, not only in this life, but also for eternity. We don’t know our own futures or how future good may come out of current difficulties that we may experiencing right now.
One example I’ve heard and like is this: If a child is very sick, he may need a shot, or terrible tasting medicine. The parent of that child wants what is best for the child and permits the doctor to administer whatever the child needs. From the childs perspective this is really unfair and their parent is causing them hardship. Only later in life will they realize that this was for their own wellbeing.
We are like the child…we can’t see our own future in this life let alone in the eternity after this life. Therefor it is impossible to say that God is unfair because we don’t know what he knows. Perhaps this is why he tells us that we must become “like little children” to enter into the kingdom of God (Matthew 18:3). Have faith and trust in the Lord Jesus.
I would also ask the question: Was it unfair that Jesus, who is God, suffered a horrible and torturous execution even though he was completely innocent? And he allowed this to happen even though he could have stopped it or prevented it completely. This is my “proof” that God is not unfair.
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Trident_H
Guest
Oh boy. Don’t get me started on this one. Is God fair? I don’t think so. But then don’t listen to me either. I mean what do I know?
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Cybophonia
Guest
As days pass by I am more convinced that God is unfair and malevolent and a cheater, someone not to trust. The world itself is proof enough for that and no 1000000000000000000 Jesuses’ can fix that balance. Why would anyone bother with God? Can you trust God not to be tired of you and your worship and destroy all of you after a certain thousands of years in heaven? What proof do you have that he will not do that, or not cross against his word? Look at the two testaments at the multitude of religion, if God is real and really cares of people knowing him why didn’t he make his message clear so that everyone exists and why did he made so many religions? And the devil… Common, God cannot have any rival… The only reason an entity such as the devil would exist is again because of the malevolence of God.
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Trident_H
Guest
Hey Cybophonia. Ok. I get what you’re saying. I mean I understand you’re sort of low down and feeling bad. But I don’t think you’ve got it really the right way round to say that God is unfair. I mean if God was unfair you’d never have a nice day. You’d just have bad ones. But that’s not true is it?As days pass by I am more convinced that God is unfair and malevolent and a cheater, someone not to trust. The world itself is proof enough for that and no 1000000000000000000 Jesuses’ can fix that balance. Why would anyone bother with God? Can you trust God not to be tired of you and your worship and destroy all of you after a certain thousands of years in heaven? What proof do you have that he will not do that, or not cross against his word? Look at the two testaments at the multitude of religion, if God is real and really cares of people knowing him why didn’t he make his message clear so that everyone exists and why did he made so many religions? And the devil… Common, God cannot have any rival… The only reason an entity such as the devil would exist is again because of the malevolence of God.
I mean the very fact that God lets you judge Him without bursting into flames should tell you that He’s reasonable. I’m not very imaginative and yet even I can think of a lot of things He could do to make life worse. So I think you’ve got to give Him a bit more credit.
Now if you want to know who’s not fair, it’s other people. I mean you wouldn’t be having any troubles at all if it weren’t for them right? But then again you wouldn’t have anyone’s love either. So I think you’ve got to be fair to everyone. I think we’re all in this together. We’ve got to help each other. We’ve got to care.
And I mean God’s looking down on us and waiting. He’s a patient guy. He’s not in a hurry like the rest of us. I mean how would you be if you had all of eternity to do stuff? Would you zap things into shape or would you take 1000 years to get something done? (And I mean don’t look at me because I’m a procrastinator. I’d probably still be working on making the firmament. Or whatever.) But God doesn’t have to do anything. Not for us. Not for anyone. But He does. I mean He didn’t have to make anything sweet. Or anything even taste good. He could have made eating to be a really painful process. I mean imagine if He didn’t care and just made all of us without teeth so we’d either have to swallow things whole or cut them up into a million tiny pieces. So that when we came along to a burger place we’d just unhinge our jaw like a snake and drop it all in. (Actually, I think I might have seen some people eat like this. Not pretty.)
Then maybe we’d have to go into like a torpid state while we digested. Imagine all of us lying all over the sidewalk all torpid-like. Eyes glazed and everything. I mean a pick-pocket’s paradise.
Well anyway I think I got off track. But the point is that God does care. That’s why He made a church for us to go to. A place for us to feel safe and loved once in a while. A place to remind us that He’s waiting for us. That He’s got plans for us.
And I mean even if those plans involve later getting bored of us and setting us aside at least we had the experience of living. We could have just been a bunch of rocks. By the side of a mountain. Or something.
Peace.
-Trident
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
I think you are describing man who you know, rather than God, who you do not know.As days pass by I am more convinced that God is unfair and malevolent and a cheater, someone not to trust.
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Trident_H
Guest
Wow I think you said that a whole lot quicker than I did. I mean I went all the way around to the other side of the shed and back when the shovel was just behind me.I think you are describing man who you know, rather than God, who you do not know.
Good job man.
Peace.
-Trident
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Cybophonia
Guest
A church who has killed millions in his name. Answer my questions what proof do you have that God will not destroy or mock those in heaven after he gest bored of them? I’m sure a few millions of years of alelujah from scared ants in heaven would be boring even for God.Hey Cybophonia. Ok. I get what you’re saying. I mean I understand you’re sort of low down and feeling bad. But I don’t think you’ve got it really the right way round to say that God is unfair. I mean if God was unfair you’d never have a nice day. You’d just have bad ones. But that’s not true is it?
I mean the very fact that God lets you judge Him without bursting into flames should tell you that He’s reasonable. I’m not very imaginative and yet even I can think of a lot of things He could do to make life worse. So I think you’ve got to give Him a bit more credit.
Now if you want to know who’s not fair, it’s other people. I mean you wouldn’t be having any troubles at all if it weren’t for them right? But then again you wouldn’t have anyone’s love either. So I think you’ve got to be fair to everyone. I think we’re all in this together. We’ve got to help each other. We’ve got to care.
And I mean God’s looking down on us and waiting. He’s a patient guy. He’s not in a hurry like the rest of us. I mean how would you be if you had all of eternity to do stuff? Would you zap things into shape or would you take 1000 years to get something done? (And I mean don’t look at me because I’m a procrastinator. I’d probably still be working on making the firmament. Or whatever.) But God doesn’t have to do anything. Not for us. Not for anyone. But He does. I mean He didn’t have to make anything sweet. Or anything even taste good. He could have made eating to be a really painful process. I mean imagine if He didn’t care and just made all of us without teeth so we’d either have to swallow things whole or cut them up into a million tiny pieces. So that when we came along to a burger place we’d just unhinge our jaw like a snake and drop it all in. (Actually, I think I might have seen some people eat like this. Not pretty.)
Then maybe we’d have to go into like a torpid state while we digested. Imagine all of us lying all over the sidewalk all torpid-like. Eyes glazed and everything. I mean a pick-pocket’s paradise.
Well anyway I think I got off track. But the point is that God does care. That’s why He made a church for us to go to. A place for us to feel safe and loved once in a while. A place to remind us that He’s waiting for us. That He’s got plans for us.
And I mean even if those plans involve later getting bored of us and setting us aside at least we had the experience of living. We could have just been a bunch of rocks. By the side of a mountain. Or something.
Peace.
-Trident
And if God wanted us to know him why didn’t he make his message clear from the start for everyone to understand it, or give anyone the capacity to do so individually?
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Cybophonia
Guest
Opinions worth nothing in front of facts. You have yet to address and/or refute what I said.I think you are describing man who you know, rather than God, who you do not know.
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ahs
Guest
Some of what you said is not worth refuting. For example, “…what proof do you have that God will not destroy or mock those in heaven after he gets bored…? [A] few million years…would be boring even for God.”Opinions worth nothing in front of facts. You have yet to address and/or refute what I said.
The evidence you are seeking is negative. If you are actually interested in facts, as you claim, the YOU must prove your own point: that God will get bored and that God might mock or destroy people in Heaven.
But let’s look at just the facts to see whether God is fair:
Fact: The wages of sin is death, and all are sinners, so all must die.
Fact: All men die.
-God is fair.
Fact: God was under no obligation to offer salvation and eternal life to man, who earned death by his sins.
Fact: God decided to save us anyway.
-Ooooh…now THAT’s not fair!! God is NOT fair! HE saved us when He did not have to, and we didn’t deserve it, and offers us eternal salvation when we don’t deserve it.
-So, no, God is not fair…and you should be thankful that He isn’t.
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bquinnan
Guest
What kind of proof could possibly suffice for you? Do you first need proof that God exists, or do you assume that to be true? Do you need proof that Jesus is truly the Son of God the Father and consubstantial with the Father? Do you need proof that the Bible is the inspired word of God? That’s a lot to prove in a forum post, and if we could prove all that, who would need faith?
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 reads, “This is evidence of the just judgment of God, so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God for which you are suffering. For it is surely just on God’s part to repay with afflictions those who are afflicting you, and to grant rest along with us to you who are undergoing afflictions, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels, in blazing fire, inflicting punishment on those who do not acknowledge God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.”
In other words, our sufferings will be paid back and the unjust and unrepentant will be punished, but not necessarily in this world. Clearly Christians do not expect that justice will always be administered within one’s life on earth, because we all know that some people die uncompensated for wrongs done to them, while others literally get away with murder.
It must also be noted that all we have is a gift from God, Who owed us nothing. Therefore, the fact that some may seem to have been given more than we is not an example of injustice, anymore than it would be unjust for you to give one friend a new bike for Christmas and another a fruitcake.
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 reads, “This is evidence of the just judgment of God, so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God for which you are suffering. For it is surely just on God’s part to repay with afflictions those who are afflicting you, and to grant rest along with us to you who are undergoing afflictions, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels, in blazing fire, inflicting punishment on those who do not acknowledge God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.”
In other words, our sufferings will be paid back and the unjust and unrepentant will be punished, but not necessarily in this world. Clearly Christians do not expect that justice will always be administered within one’s life on earth, because we all know that some people die uncompensated for wrongs done to them, while others literally get away with murder.
It must also be noted that all we have is a gift from God, Who owed us nothing. Therefore, the fact that some may seem to have been given more than we is not an example of injustice, anymore than it would be unjust for you to give one friend a new bike for Christmas and another a fruitcake.
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Cybophonia
Guest
Proof? Take the flood for example. It says God felt sorry he had created man(wow!) and that he went to destroy all human race except one family.Some of what you said is not worth refuting. For example, “…what proof do you have that God will not destroy or mock those in heaven after he gets bored…? [A] few million years…would be boring even for God.”
The evidence you are seeking is negative. If you are actually interested in facts, as you claim, the YOU must prove your own point: that God will get bored and that God might mock or destroy people in Heaven.
But let’s look at just the facts to see whether God is fair:
Fact: The wages of sin is death, and all are sinners, so all must die.
Fact: All men die.
-God is fair.
Fact: God was under no obligation to offer salvation and eternal life to man, who earned death by his sins.
Fact: God decided to save us anyway.
-Ooooh…now THAT’s not fair!! God is NOT fair! HE saved us when He did not have to, and we didn’t deserve it, and offers us eternal salvation when we don’t deserve it.
-So, no, God is not fair…and you should be thankful that He isn’t.
The bar is of God is unrealistic, high and over demeaning. People are naturally born with a propensity to “sin” and have a sinful nature(even baptised people). No one on the face of the planet is “sinless” or all good , people have good and bad sides and habits. If he wanted them to be so pure why didn’t he make them so , in that manner? The free-will argument does not stand as punishing people for choosing to exercit their free-will is not fair at all. It shows God does not respect the choices of people if he would that he would make a reward for whatever option people might choose. And even all the fathers argues that God determines things more or less.
Saving us? No proof for that. Everyone still dies, gets sick, suffers, etc… And even so that would mean nothing as he is the main responsible for everything man do even the consequence of their free-will (whom he created). And it is not loving nor fair to choose to punish someone for choosing freely by the ability you gave them to not like you. (it is like a constraint) … Like the mafia mob guy who points a gun to your head.
I am not thankful at all that God is not fair nor loving, for me he is not worthy even of mention, much more of worship. Not this God…
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