Is God humble? Connection between Humility and Love

[Makar]

You should fear Him terribly.

Makar:

Then I have nothing to speak with you. That’s a propaganda of a sick and destroying religion.

 

[fhansen]

Agreed.

So humility isn’t truly a human quality-in any consistent or overt way. And humility and poor self-esteem are not one and the same BTW.

Agreed. Nothing contradicted his deity, no. It couldn’t have, since he’s fully God.

Right, so humility is consistent with godliness, as is patience, kindness, gentleness. Humility isn’t really “low”. One must stand against a prideful, self-righteous world in order to be truly humble.

 

[Francis]

Most of the questions are about the same thing: “is God humble?” and “what is humility?”

Yes he humbled himself to the utmost ,to the dust and ashes even till the end of the world in the holy Eucharist he is blasphemed,thrown, scourged and falls down many time his body is being defiled when we received him in mortal sins, ,a servant ,one who came to serve.Humility is a virtue ,and has to be practiced and increased each day according to our state and stature of life ,the greater you are the more humble you must be ,how by God’s Grace we may do it John 3:30

Philippians 2:1-11 Imitating Christ’s Humility

2 If then there is any encouragement in Christ, any consolation from love, any sharing in the Spirit, any compassion and sympathy, 2 make my joy complete: be of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility regard others as better than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. 5 Let the same mind be in you that was[[a] in Christ Jesus,

6 who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
8 he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.

9 Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Luke 1:50: And his mercy is upon generation after generation toward those who fear him.
Revelation 11:18: And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.

There are many verses in Scripture that speak of the importance of fear of the Lord.

Right, so humility is consistent with godliness, as is patience, kindness, gentleness.

I would say that humility is emblematic of human virtue, and that since Jesus was both fully human and perfect, he was therefore humble. Perhaps we could phrase it that Jesus, because he was fully God and therefore fully self-aware, was therefore humble.

I think, at least in the colloquial sense of the word “humble,” that it does imply lowness. But it doesn’t have to imply a false lowness, a degradation of one’s status below what it truly is.

Again, I’m sort of spitballing here. My point is not that humility is contrary to godliness, but that humility is a description of a particular self-assessment, and is only a virtue because it is accurate.

 

[fhansen]

You should fear Him terribly.

This entire thread is really about the “knowledge of God” as it’s put. To know God is to love Him, because it simply cannot be helped in that case. Simultaneously fear gives way to love as this knowledge increases, even as we also grow in understanding of His infinite superiority and power. God simply does not, will not, use that power abusively or even simply in a way to protect or defend His “virtue” or rightful desire to be recognized as God. The whole story of God leading His people towards the Promised Land, ultimately fulfilled in Christ, is a story of God “perfecting” His creation, by drawing man into rectitude of will, without force, while ultimately being willing to allow man to have his own way even if that way means rejection of Him, i.e. hell. God is heaven, as Pope Benedict put it in “Jesus of Nazareth”.

By default man sees God as wrathful, aloof in His superiority, and “jealous of His prerogatives” as the catechism puts it. But this is a false view of God, a “distorted image” as the catechism also teaches. Enmity came from man. Jesus came to reconcile man with God by showing us His true “face” when the time was ripe in history, and in our own personal histories. That was God hanging on a cross, suffering an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh in order to show us just how far He’d go to demonstrate a love so “wide and long and high and deep” so we may begin to grasp it-and be humbled and changed by it.

God hates evil. God loves man. He desires to separate the two-He wants us to become jaded by evil and finally attracted to the Ultimate Good, but He obviously does not force that issue-or no evil would ever exist. In the end all creation will orient itself to Him, or will choose not to. Either way good and evil will not co-exist eternally.

 

[fhansen]

I would say that humility is emblematic of human virtue, and that since Jesus was both fully human and perfect, he was therefore humble.

And I’d submit hat human perfection is based on the image of God, that we’re to be transformed into.

 

[fhansen]

I think, at least in the colloquial sense of the word “humble,” that it does imply lowness. But it doesn’t have to imply a false lowness, a degradation of one’s status below what it truly is.

This is true. In fact, Aquinas defined pride as an inordinate view of one’s own worth and an inordinate desire for one’s own excellence, or something to that effect.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

I think, at least in the colloquial sense of the word “humble,” that it does imply lowness. But it doesn’t have to imply a false lowness, a degradation of one’s status below what it truly is.

This is true. In fact, Aquinas defined pride as an inordinate view of one’s own worth and an inordinate desire for one’s own excellence, or something to that effect.

Which gets back to one of the claims being discussed. Makar said that the proud cannot love the humble when stating that God must be humble, but God cannot be proud, so this is a point that doesn’t apply to the discussion of God’s love for us.

 

[fhansen]

IDK. Unless true humility implies a satisfaction in being who one is, no more, no less: a love of self. In any case pride is said to be a twisting of a certain good, as all evil is said to be. In this case the “good” is self-love.

 

[HopkinsReb]

IDK. Unless true humility implies a satisfaction in being who one is, no more, no less: a love of self. In any case pride is said to be a twisting of a certain good, as all evil is said to be. In this case the “good” is self-love.

Yeah, I think we have conflicting definitions between the formal theological definition and the colloquial meaning of the word. Having never studied Aquinas, I’m not coming from his terminology.

 

[fhansen]

I think the word “fear” can also be understood differently in the context of Christian thought. In any case fear of His enormity and power over us may be a good place to start as this fear actually implies faith by acknowledging His existence first of all but also an awareness of His power over our very lives/existence. But as we grow in knowledge of Him we begin to obey out of love, meaning willingly, due to knowledge of His sheer goodness. Fear of wrath is no longer a factor; one needs not fear so long as we do what’s right anyway. I appreciate St Basil of Cesarea’s comments on this “progression”:

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

 

[Makar]

In any case fear of His enormity and power over us may be a good place to start

Really???
I know many people in whom a panic fear of God was installed in different sects (and also by some priests of the Church) and now they are going through a very hard psychological rehabilitation for years, they have a lot of neurosis (and even psychosis) and are psychologically just “murdered”. And all these illnesses are developed in that soil of fear, of panic fear to anger the “terrible God” by “not obeying” His demands.

What do you think, what will become of a child if he has panic fear of his parents from his early childhood? Will he be mentally healthy afterwards?

Are you still thinking that it is a good ground for developing love for God?

I repeat for everyone: do not propagandize (at least in this thread) sick and destructive religion! — religion of fear, of terrible fear of God!

 

[HopkinsReb]

fhansen:

In any case fear of His enormity and power over us may be a good place to start

Really???
I know many people in whom a panic fear of God was installed in different sects (and also by some priests of the Church) and now they are going through a very hard psychological rehabilitation for years, they have a lot of neurosis (and even psychosis) and are psychologically just “murdered”. And all these illnesses are developed in that soil of fear, of panic fear to anger the “terrible God” by “not obeying” His demands.

What do you think, what will become of a child if he has panic fear of his parents from his early childhood? Will he be mentally healthy afterwards?

Are you still thinking that it is a good ground for developing love for God?

I repeat for everyone: do not propagandize (at least in this thread) sick and destructive religion! — religion of fear, of terrible fear of God!

Who said anything about a “panic fear of God?”

Part of what makes children behave is fear of punishment from their parents. I feared punishment from my parents, but I never had a panicked fear of them.

At the risk of being accused of being too scholastic by giving an Aristotelian definition, virtue lies in moderation. A complete lack of fear of God is unhealthy, but so is an obsessive, panicked fear.

 

[Makar]

Who said anything about a “panic fear of God?”

You said :

You should fear Him terribly.

Makar:

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

Who said anything about a “panic fear of God?”

You said :

You should fear Him terribly.

I didn’t say “panic.”

And, in my defense, I was using your terminology in my reply to you as a sort of rhetorical device, not making a formal argument.

 

[Makar]

I didn’t say “panic.”

And, in my defense, I was using your terminology in my reply to you as a sort of rhetorical device, not making a formal argument.

Do not try to hide behind your finger.
Telling absolutely wrong, harmful and dangerous statements is not a rhetorical device.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

I didn’t say “panic.”

And, in my defense, I was using your terminology in my reply to you as a sort of rhetorical device, not making a formal argument.

Do not try to hide behind your finger.
Telling absolutely wrong, harmful and dangerous statements is not a rhetorical device.

I do not know what it means to “hide behind my finger.”

You seem to have a lot of assumptions about my character and my beliefs, that I seem to believe in a wholly wrathful, prideful God who does not love us and of whom we should live in constant terror.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[fhansen]

To some extent we start with fear no matter what I think. And when scripture says that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, I think the message implies a healthy understanding of who He is relative to us, his creation. And this is still superior in its way to what is essentially its opposite, pride, which denies His very existence for all practical purposes, exalting itself above everything else as it seeks to do.

Either way I explained how the Christian message actually counters this concept of God which may be universal in us but that it can take time to get it straight. It’s not just a matter of how it’s been taught, but a matter of our own preconceptions, themselves a mark of the Fall, that must be overcome.

 

[HopkinsReb]

To some extent we start with fear no matter what I think. And when scripture says that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, I think the message implies a healthy understanding of who He is relative to us, his creation. And this is still superior in its way to what is essentially its opposite, pride, which denies His very existence for all practical purposes, exalting itself above everything else as it seeks to do.

Either way I explained how the Christian message actually counters this concept of God which may be universal in us but that it can take time to get it straight. It’s not just a matter of how it’s been taught, but a matter of our own preconceptions that must be overcome.

Isn’t the Catholic view on contrition that it begins from the fear of punishment and, as one is sanctified, turns to the love of God?

 

[Wesrock]

fhansen:

To some extent we start with fear no matter what I think. And when scripture says that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, I think the message implies a healthy understanding of who He is relative to us, his creation. And this is still superior in its way to what is essentially its opposite, pride, which denies His very existence for all practical purposes, exalting itself above everything else as it seeks to do.

Either way I explained how the Christian message actually counters this concept of God which may be universal in us but that it can take time to get it straight. It’s not just a matter of how it’s been taught, but a matter of our own preconceptions that must be overcome.

Isn’t the Catholic view on contrition that it begins from the fear of punishment and, as one is sanctified, turns to the love of God?

I think it’s moreso that contrition due to love reflects a more perfect understanding and interior disposition.

And, because I’m not 100% clear on your posts, the teaching is not (as I undertand it) that every contrition starts with fear and moves towards love, but that generally speaking people progress in their faith and trust over time.