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ssancho
Guest
If God is omniscient (all-knowing), and Jesus is God, how is it that Jesus doesn’t know the hour or day of His Second Coming?
How do we resolve this as Catholics?
How do we resolve this as Catholics?
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TomD123
Guest
Jesus is omniscient. The Church has taught relatively a lot on the topic of Christ’s knowledge, I can provide some good summary articles if you wish.
The basic idea is that when Christ said this he meant (in a paraphrase from Pope St. Gregory the Great):
I know in my humanity the day and hour of the last judgment but not ***from *** my humanity.
In other words, Christ did know because he sees all that God knows, Christ is God and his soul had the beatific vision. Christ was making the point that he did not know in the same way we all learn things over time. It wasn’t human knowledge or things he figured out or learned as a human, he knew only because he was God.
The basic idea is that when Christ said this he meant (in a paraphrase from Pope St. Gregory the Great):
I know in my humanity the day and hour of the last judgment but not ***from *** my humanity.
In other words, Christ did know because he sees all that God knows, Christ is God and his soul had the beatific vision. Christ was making the point that he did not know in the same way we all learn things over time. It wasn’t human knowledge or things he figured out or learned as a human, he knew only because he was God.
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Inego_de_Loyola
Guest
First let us consider the correct Christology:
Quicunque Vult (Athanasian Creed):
If anybody wants to be saved, first of all it is necessary that they hold the Catholic Faith.
Because unless everyone keeps this Faith completely and purely, without doubt they shall not be saved.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither mixing up the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
What the Father is, that is what the Son is, and also what the Holy Spirit is.
The Father was not created by anyone, the Son was not created by anyone, and the Holy Spirit was not created by anyone.
The Father is beyond our understanding, the Son is beyond our understanding, and the Holy Spirit is beyond our understanding.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet they are not three who are eternal, but one who is eternal.
And they are not three who are beyond our understanding, nor three who were not created by anyone, but one uncreated, and one beyond our understanding.
So in the same way the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Spirit is Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So in the same way the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For just as the Christian Truth forces us to acknowledge each Person in and of himself to be both God and Lord, so the Catholic Religion forbids us to say there are three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is from no one, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son comes from the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is from the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another;
So that in all things, as was said before, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
Whoever wants to be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation also to believe correctly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Human;
God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Human, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Human, continually existing as a rational soul and human flesh together;
Equal to the Father, as God; and inferior to the Father, as human.
Who although he is God and Human, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by changing the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the Humanity into God;
One altogether; not by mixing up the Substance of God and Human, but by uniting them in one person.
For as the rational soul and flesh together in one person is one human, so God and Human together in one person is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sits at the right hands of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all persons shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, without which there is no salvation.
[Emphasis Mine]
Quicunque Vult (Athanasian Creed):
If anybody wants to be saved, first of all it is necessary that they hold the Catholic Faith.
Because unless everyone keeps this Faith completely and purely, without doubt they shall not be saved.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither mixing up the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
What the Father is, that is what the Son is, and also what the Holy Spirit is.
The Father was not created by anyone, the Son was not created by anyone, and the Holy Spirit was not created by anyone.
The Father is beyond our understanding, the Son is beyond our understanding, and the Holy Spirit is beyond our understanding.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet they are not three who are eternal, but one who is eternal.
And they are not three who are beyond our understanding, nor three who were not created by anyone, but one uncreated, and one beyond our understanding.
So in the same way the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Spirit is Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So in the same way the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For just as the Christian Truth forces us to acknowledge each Person in and of himself to be both God and Lord, so the Catholic Religion forbids us to say there are three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is from no one, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son comes from the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is from the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another;
So that in all things, as was said before, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
Whoever wants to be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation also to believe correctly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Human;
God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Human, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Human, continually existing as a rational soul and human flesh together;
Equal to the Father, as God; and inferior to the Father, as human.
Who although he is God and Human, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by changing the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the Humanity into God;
One altogether; not by mixing up the Substance of God and Human, but by uniting them in one person.
For as the rational soul and flesh together in one person is one human, so God and Human together in one person is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sits at the right hands of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all persons shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, without which there is no salvation.
[Emphasis Mine]
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Inego_de_Loyola
Guest
Then let us consider the catechisms (name removed by moderator)ut:
IV. HOW IS THE SON OF GOD MAN?
470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”,97 in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:98
The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.99
Christ’s soul and his human knowledge
471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.100
472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”,101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.103
473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person.104 "The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God."105 Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.106 The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.107
474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate,** Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.109** [Emphasis Mine]
IV. HOW IS THE SON OF GOD MAN?
470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”,97 in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:98
The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.99
Christ’s soul and his human knowledge
471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.100
472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”,101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.103
473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person.104 "The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God."105 Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.106 The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.107
474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate,** Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.109** [Emphasis Mine]
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tonyrey
Guest
Since Jesus chose to be like us in all things except sin He could not have been omniscient while He was on earth.
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Christy_Beth
Guest
Ok, I want to sound a bit unchristian, but can hardly retort by telling you to change that question just a bit. In other words, are we ignorant?
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Pugsly
Guest
Jesus is God…God is Perfect Justice and Mercy…as God “plays out” His perfect mercy Jesus restrains His great powers and humbles Himself…it is not such a stretch of the imagination to see that Jesus “set aside” His powers in such a way that He had to exercise Faith, Hope and Charity before the Father.
Now, if Jesus is exercising Faith and Trust in the Father…then perhaps He healed people who weren’t IMMEDIATELY healed…and He cursed a fig tree that didn’t show signs of withering RIGHT AWAY…and He went into the desert and was at the point of starvation when the Father sent angels to care for Him…and Jesus had great secrets of the endtimes withheld and other consolations too.
Jesus exercised Perfect Mercy and Courage…but let’s never forget that He exercised TRUST in the Father at all times.
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tonyrey
Guest
I’m sure it wasn’t intended to be derogatory but I was taken aback when I saw the question!
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Christy_Beth
Guest
I was being a smart aleck. Sorry about that.
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ssancho
Guest
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Inego_de_Loyola
Guest
How does this differ from what the Athanasian Creed and the Catechism quote I posted said?
Or was it just a case of, “tl;dr”?
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ssancho
Guest
It was a case of the following:How does this differ from what the Athanasian Creed and the Catechism quote I posted said?
“…security lies in many counselors” (Proverbs 11:14)
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jonathan_hili
Guest
St Paul says that Christ “emptied himself” (Phil 2:7) in becoming an incarnate human being. It has been argued, and to me this makes plenty of sense, that the second person of the Trinity suppressed certain divine realities in his humanity. I mean, Jesus obviously didn’t “know” particle physics in his humanity nor how to bake a chocolate gateau. Does this mean he wasn’t omniscient? Certainly not. Just as, in certain conditions, we don’t “know” things we would ordinarily otherwise know, so, I think, it was with Jesus.
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