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chaunceygardner
Guest
Another excellent reference. Here is an excerpt of the key paragraph which refers to the title (underlining mine):
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superdave69
Guest
God made everything that’s existing, that is or ever was. God is a spiritual God. He sent us his son Jesus Christ in human and spiritual form, to show us the way and the truth, Christ died for our sins. Your mortal body shall turn back to dust. It is your spiritual body that will live forever. I think where most people miss the boat is they do not realize God is very mystical and either man or science will ever really understand how great and powerful he is. You must have faith of a child and follow Christ. Yes the trinity is the complete God. May the peace of God be with you and keep seeking him to the very end.
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mardukm
Guest
EVERY work of God in Creation is generally termed a “Grace” in patristic, Catholic, Orthodox theology. In him and through him, we have our very being.
But there are different Graces. The Grace of the physical creation is different from the Grace of spiritual life (i.e., the rational soul), which is again different from the Grace of Divine Life, or the Grace of physical Immortality.
The Grace of physical life is shared by all of God’s creatures. This is called at times by the Fathers of the Church, the “animal” or “beast” nature.
The Grace of the rational soul is shared by all humans. In fact, it is the rational soul which makes us unique from the rest of God’s creatures. This is what the Fathers call, the “human” nature, which is the animal nature bonded to a rational soul. The rational soul is created and infused in the animal nature from the moment of each new human being’s creation (i.e., at conception). According to Fathers and the teaching of the Church, the rational soul is the form of the human nature, while the corruptible animal nature is the essence of the human nature.
NOTE: I’m not sure if there is a dogmatic Church teaching on whether God has a passive or active role in the creation/infusion of the rational soul (i.e., is the creation/infusion of the soul a natural faculty of humanity in the act of conception, or does God Himself directly create and infuse the soul at the moment of conception?).
Enter: the Grace of Divine life (i.e, [1] union with God and [2] Sanctifying Grace for our souls, which makes them perfect in the eyes of God) and the Grace of physical Immortality.
These Graces were present in the primordial state of man. Unlike the Grace of a physical life and a rational soul, they were not inherent in or natural to man, but was rather a gratuitous gift of God. Due to the sin of our first parents, these Graces were lost. What remained was/is our corruptible human nature. Thus, we experience both physical death, and spiritual death (i.e., separation from God)
Through Baptism in the Holy Spirit, our human nature can once again share in the Grace of Divine Life that was lost by our first parents. Our souls again become perfected in the eyes of God and can thus be in union with Him. But note that our souls do not become the essence of Grace, but rather, the Grace ACTS on our souls.
The seal of the Holy Spirit also promises us not just the Grace of physical immortality (likewise lost by our first parents) when Christ returns, but physical immortality itself. At the Resurrection, we will lose our corruptible animal nature (remember, human nature is the animal nature bonded to a rational soul). As St. Paul teaches us, we will be changed, shedding corruptibility and putting on incorruptibility.
At the Resurrection of the Dead, physical immortality will become our natural state, whereas with Adam and Eve, it was still a gratuitous gift.
I confess that I am not sure if the Divine Life after the Resurrection of the Dead becomes natural to us as well, or remains a gratuitous gift of Grace. I am of the opinion that it will, like physical immortality, become natural to us.
I hope that helps.
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
Well done, brother. His statement that the soul is eternal (without beginning or end), instead of immortal (with a beginning, but no end), is also heretical. It is a Gnostic teaching condemned by the Church in the earliest centuries.
Blessings,
Marduk
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chaunceygardner
Guest
Ah, but what if those Gnostics were right? And aren’t we splitting hairs here? Why is the eternity of the soul (which I believe is God, Who is eternal) vs. the immortality of the soul critical to anyone’s faith? If you believe one thing and I another, should that make any difference in whether we both get to heaven? Do you think Jesus will judge either of us on that basis? If you do believe THAT, then you are far, far away from understanding the meaning of His message.
Peace be with you.
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Ghosty
Guest
The Gnostics were not true Christians; they did not follow the teachings of Christ nor the direction of the Apostles whom Christ appointed to govern the Church and teach the Faith. Their teachings have no place in Christianity, and neither does Hinduism which is even MORE removed from Christianity than Gnosticism.
Peace and God bless!
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Benadam
Guest
quote=chaunceygardner;
For the average Joe and his buddy next door, being neighborly means alot more than the finer points of any theology. It’s definitely splitting hairs.
In view of man entire, the finer points of a theology appear more like two hairs as one. Not really two hairs, but a hair against a mirror. One a reflection of the other. Only smears on the glass expose the true character of their relationship.
Do you believe God created something out of nothing? Or did God make something from himself? Splitting hairs? yeah. But one hair leads to reincarnation and the reverence for animals as a more perfect form of life.
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Peace be with you.
For the average Joe and his buddy next door, being neighborly means alot more than the finer points of any theology. It’s definitely splitting hairs.
In view of man entire, the finer points of a theology appear more like two hairs as one. Not really two hairs, but a hair against a mirror. One a reflection of the other. Only smears on the glass expose the true character of their relationship.
Do you believe God created something out of nothing? Or did God make something from himself? Splitting hairs? yeah. But one hair leads to reincarnation and the reverence for animals as a more perfect form of life.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Ah, but what if those Gnostics were right? And aren’t we splitting hairs here? Why is the eternity of the soul (which I believe is God, Who is eternal) vs. the immortality of the soul critical to anyone’s faith? If you believe one thing and I another, should that make any difference in whether we both get to heaven? Do you think Jesus will judge either of us on that basis?
**1. But the Gnostics were NOT right. That’s the entire point. It’s like trying to insist, “Ah, but what if 2 plus 2 really does equal 5?”
**1. But the Gnostics were NOT right. That’s the entire point. It’s like trying to insist, “Ah, but what if 2 plus 2 really does equal 5?”
- No, we’re not splitting hairs here. We are giving you truth and you are not receiving it.
- Only God is eternal. Period.
- The Bible says you can believe a lie and be damned.**
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simple_soul
Guest
Dear Chaunceygardner,
First let me apologize for not responding to this post right away. I had to think about it a little bit. I know others are claiming that you are promoting gnostic ideas maybe you are from my limited understanding of gnostic teaching I could not say. I too believe that God is infinate. I also can say with confidence is that it is Catholic Church teaching ( exspecialy in the defence of the unborn ) that God new us befor we were even in the womb. How He knew us I do not know. Maybe it was just the thought of us. Like His Divine plan or something. But understanding this and understanding that the soul and physical body are what makes us humans I would be led to believe that God knew us as humans consiting of bothe body and soul before we were in the womb. I think I heard some where growing up that the body and soul were never ment to have been separarted but because of original sin this has become our reality and through Jesus Christ we again will one day be reunited with our bodys and be together again with God in Paridise. I am still researching this understanding and if I have stated anything incorrectly I am sure I will be corrected. Hopefully they will not be too harsh on me.
With God’s love and my prayers
C
chaunceygardner
Guest
First to clarify whose quote is whose: The one that starts with “Ah, but what if those Gnostics were right?” is mine.
1. You say the Gnostics were not right. I am not saying they were right about that or about anything. I didn’t learn my belief from them, or from Hindus (although I have read a lot from Eastern literature so it could have come from there subliminally). You and others labeled what I said as Gnostic or Hindu, which by doing so makes it automatically heretic in your mind. The label makes it so. What we are discussing NO ONE on this earth, even the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, can be absolutely sure about. And which ever idea is correct, or if neither idea is correct, should not make one iota of difference. It is really unimportant to what it means to be Christian. But you don’t see that, do you?
**2. ** Regarding giving and receiving “truth”, see #1 above.
**3. ** I totally agree, only God is eternal. No argument, whatsoever. The disagreement is in how we view God. I view God as Eternal and Infinite. Two different things. But both statements are in total agreement with the Church’s teaching. I am taking those two ideas, combining them with a particular concept of the “Soul”, and also what Jesus told us about our relationship to Him and the Father, and suggest that our “Soul” is that part of the eternal and infinite God that resides within us.
I know it can be difficult to think about. If God is eternal and infinite, then He exists everywhere and in everything. Or to turn it around, everything is contained within God. So that means just as we move through the air around us when we walk, or the planets and stars move through space, everyone and everything that is and that moves does so through God. Think of it like salt dissolving in a glass of water. Is the salt gone? No, it is still there, but by the science of chemistry it appears as if it is totally part of the water. But if we evaporate the water, the salt re-appears. If we are the water, then God is within us like the salt, unseen but certainly there. Or if we are the salt, then we are immersed in God. It works either way. Or both ways.
That is somewhat how I envision us and God. So using that analogy, we are totally contained within God. Every cell, every atomic particle of our bodies, everything is “suspended” in Him. Which means he is inside us, and outside us, everywhere. That part of Him within us, that is interacting with our humanity, is our “soul”. Our soul is our connection to God.
4. I am NOT claiming what I state is fact, or that you should believe what I believe. I will leave that to you. Again, I can not fathom how my way of looking at our connection to God and our soul should be that big of a deal to anyone. I also cannot believe that a merciful God would condemn me to Hell for believing Him grander than some others do, or for having a somewhat different vision of Him than some others have. He might tell me that my ideas were not quite right, but they are certainly not “bad” ideas. They will not convince anyone to perform evil deeds or to turn away from God. On the contrary, at least for me they help bring me closer to Him.
How can that be wrong?
Peace
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chaunceygardner
Guest
No apology needed. Sometimes one needs to think about or research an idea before responding. You mentioned my so called “Gnostic” beliefs, but missed the Hindu ones. I am ecumenical, if nothing else.Dear Chaunceygardner,
First let me apologize for not responding to this post right away. I had to think about it a little bit. I know others are claiming that you are promoting gnostic ideas maybe you are from my limited understanding of gnostic teaching I could not say. I too believe that God is infinate. I also can say with confidence is that it is Catholic Church teaching ( exspecialy in the defence of the unborn ) that God new us befor we were even in the womb. How He knew us I do not know. Maybe it was just the thought of us. Like His Divine plan or something. But understanding this and understanding that the soul and physical body are what makes us humans I would be led to believe that God knew us as humans consiting of bothe body and soul before we were in the womb. I think I heard some where growing up that the body and soul were never ment to have been separarted but because of original sin this has become our reality and through Jesus Christ we again will one day be reunited with our bodys and be together again with God in Paridise. I am still researching this understanding and if I have stated anything incorrectly I am sure I will be corrected. Hopefully they will not be too harsh on me.
With God’s love and my prayers
I too recall learning our souls existed before we were born. I am not sure about the body, however, and have not really thought that through as yet. My first inclination is that the merging of our physical body with our soul at conception is what makes us human, as you say, and is the reason we are said to be created “in the image of God”. And since our bodies are “created” from other existing cells and atoms, I would probably not think that our body existed before we were conceived. But it is something to think about.
Exactly how God knew us before conception is another interesting question. I am sure others will be able to quote some doctrine about that, but I will need some time to consider that as well.
There are many wonderful questions about our existence, and some of them have been discussed in other forums. Not being a theologian, philosopher, or apologist, I will leave it to others to answer most of those questions.
Thanks again for asking good questions, for your understanding, and also for finding those wonderful links to the writings of Pope Benedict and Cardinal Etchegaray. Great stuff.
Peace.
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
I too recall learning our souls existed before we were born.
**You didn’t learn it from Christianity.
This is one of the false Mormonoid teachings that, along with many other gnostic ideas, was proposed by Origen and was condemned in the Fifth Ecumenical Council.**
**You didn’t learn it from Christianity.
This is one of the false Mormonoid teachings that, along with many other gnostic ideas, was proposed by Origen and was condemned in the Fifth Ecumenical Council.**
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bpbasilphx
Guest
- I am NOT claiming what I state is fact, or that you should believe what I believe.
**But it IS a fact that, despite what you asked about being condemned for believing the wrong thing, you CAN believe a lie and be damned according to the Bible.
2 Thess 2:11-12
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Faith in itself does not save you. Faith in a lie can destroy you. Only faith in TRUTH saves.
**
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simple_soul
Guest
I hear you loud and clear!
I might be getting in over my head by posting this but I’ll see what I can do.
We had a few sermons at our Church a few months ago that really hit home with me. In short it was about how we would not be judged on how well we understand God and His Mysteries but that we would be judged exactly the way Matthew tells us we will be judged in his book 20:31 the last day of judgment. The Deacon then went on to explain who the least of God’s brethern are and used as an example the story of the good samaritan. He also went on to explain that we still need to stand up for what we understand to be Truth. But to stand up for Truth out of love for Truth. I heard quite recently that John Paul II had a very good saying. It is " The worst prison would be a closed heart."
I do think that you are sincerely trying to understand God and His Truth which I think we are all called to do and I strongly believe that in sharring our understanding we come to a better understanding about Truth. I also believe you do not have a closed heart. I hope this makes sense. I look forward to talking with you in the future.
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chaunceygardner
Guest
So if I am thinking of the right council, that would be about 553 C.E., which means that this heretical idea hung around for five centuries. What took so long?
And perhaps things weren’t so ecumenical after all. According to a Catholic history about this council:
So there was obvious disagreement about what was truly orthodox and what wasn’t. So some of what the Church teaches today was not a “slam dunk” after all. As we know, to the winners belong the spoils. In this case, the winners got to pick what was accepted doctrine and what wasn’t. Very tidy.
As another notorious person said once, “What is Truth?” You may want to consider that what YOU say is the truth may be just an opinion, a belief that cannot be proven correct, except by declaring it to be so. I prefer a little more concrete evidence for my truth. Otherwise, my opinion is just as good as your opinion.
FYI, many biblical scholars, Catholic and otherwise, believe 2 Thessalonians was written well after Paul died, by someone pretending to be him. This is according to the USCCB:
So you may not want to place all your money on that horse!
Peace.
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simple_soul
Guest
Oh yes you are right I did forget the Hindu remarks. I am also taking my time contemplating and wondering about everything. I am glad you enjoyed the writtings of Pope Benedict and Cardinal Etchegaray. I think I will start going to the Holy See web site a little more offten for my resources.
Peace and God bless.
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Madaglan
Guest
There were condemnations of Origen’s teachings by bishops long before 553.
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Madaglan
Guest
Good thing God was on the side of the victors all along.
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chaunceygardner
Guest
Not over your head at all, you are doing great!
Very nice thoughts by your Deacon. I am not sure if you have the right Chapter and verse of Matthew, however. Or perhaps you mean a different Gospel? I would be interested to find out which one he referred to.
Exactly. And thank you for your faith. An open mind and an open heart, to receive both a better understanding of God and to reflect His love for us through our love for others. The essence of Jesus’ message.
Peace.
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chaunceygardner
Guest
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