Is God is in control regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth, in the church founded by God.....

[joe370]

Is God still in control regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth in the church founded by God, or, has the sin of man trumped the will of God, thereby making it impossible to know, with certainty, the truth regarding certain doctrinal truths that continue to divide Christianity?

 

[Totterman]

Jesus,our Lords peace be with You.
Yes,He is.

 

[cooterhein]

Is God still in control regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth in the church founded by God, or, has the sin of man trumped the will of God, thereby making it impossible to know, with certainty, the truth regarding certain doctrinal truths that continue to divide Christianity?

God is sovereign over the preservation of doctrinal truth in the same way that He’s sovereign over everything. I don’t assign a special kind of sovereignty in this case.

Man does sin and frequently perishes as a result- God obviously does not desire for this to happen. But it still happens in accordance with His will, and if you suppose that the existence of sin in general (or a particular kind of sin, for that matter) trumps the will of God, this probably comes from an error in how you describe God’s will, a misguided notion about its trumpability, or perhaps both.

Additionally, it is quite possible to know truth with certainty absent divine revelation. It happens all the time, and while not all things are knowable or provable, many are. And just because some are not, it doesn’t mean God’s will is trampled on. That does not follow.

Still asking those honest questions, I take it.

 

[joe370]

[E=cooterhein;
Still asking those honest questions, I take it.
[/QUOTE]
Yes I am still asking honest questions, but still finding little consensus in the protestant sphere regarding said questions.

You said:

God is sovereign over the preservation of doctrinal truth in the same way that He’s sovereign over everything.

So we agree that God is sovereign over the preservation of doctrinal truth; God has preserved doctrinal truth. Cool…Where can I go in the world today, to find truth in a world where so many conflicting truths exist in Christendom? You just said that God is sovereign over the preservation of doctrinal truth, so where can I go to find the truth regarding the Eucharist, which God has preserved in His church? For example, the Catholic Church teaches one thing and the Baptist church teaches the polar opposite and the Lutheran church meets the CC half way regarding the real presence but does not see the Eucharist as a true sacrifice, and the Lutheran church disagrees with the Baptist church, but lucky for us God has preserved doctrinal truth regarding this doctrine, but the 64000 dollar question is: where???

 

[cooterhein]

So we agree that God is sovereign over the preservation of doctrinal truth; God has preserved doctrinal truth. Cool…

I said God is sovereign over doctrinal truth in the same way that He’s sovereign over everything. Take you, for example. God is sovereign over your life. That doesn’t mean every single thing that happens to you is good, or that everything you touch comes up roses. It’s the same with doctrinal truth and any body of believers that has a hand in espousing or defending it. God is sovereign over what any of them do, but that doesn’t mean any one group is guaranteed perfection at all times. That’s not what it means for God to be sovereign over something.

God’s sovereignty is not synonymous with a divine guarantee of protection from error, nor is it possible to demonstrate that one necessitates the other. That’s the main idea here.

Where can I go in the world today, to find truth in a world where so many conflicting truths exist in Christendom?

Wherever the truth happens to be. Do you have a good way of knowing truth from error, are you still working on it, or have you given up on that?

You just said that God is sovereign over the preservation of doctrinal truth, so where can I go to find the truth regarding the Eucharist, which God has preserved in His church?

Wherever the truth is. It doesn’t matter who says it or where they are when they say it. Those things have no bearing on whether or not something is true.

For example, the Catholic Church teaches one thing and the Baptist church teaches the polar opposite and the Lutheran church meets the CC half way regarding the real presence but does not see the Eucharist as a true sacrifice,

If symbolism is at the south pole and transubstantiation is the north pole, consubstantiation isn’t anywhere near the equator- it’s significantly north of that, probably well into the Arctic Circle. I get your point, though.

and the Lutheran church disagrees with the Baptist church, but lucky for us God has preserved doctrinal truth regarding this doctrine, but the 64000 dollar question is: where???

That God is sovereign over doctrinal truth does not necessarily mean that the full extent of the truth that you’d like to know about doctrine is quite as available as you would like it to be. Some truth that you’d like to know is unknowable, and God is sovereign over that, too.

With respect to your question, though, we can’t answer the 64000 dollar question before answering the earlier questions. Among them are questions like: Is this a good question, and is it asked in an appropriate manner? Followed by: Is the answer to this question knowable? And then: If so, how can we find the answer to this question? Followed by: To what degree can we trust the results that came of the process we just went through? And at 32000 dollars, the question is: What is the truth?

After that, though, you’re right. Somewhere around 64000 dollars, we do eventually arrive at the question of “where???” But that can only be legitimately answered once you’ve fully interacted with all the questions that lead up to it, and the 64000 dollar answer isn’t necessarily going to be the same thing every time.

Compared to the 32000 dollar question, it’s of minimal importance anyway.

 

[joe370]

Hey cooterhein…

Where can I go in the world today, to find truth in a world where so many conflicting truths exist in Christendom?

Wherever the truth happens to be.

So you don’t know? Got it.

Do you have a good way of knowing truth from error, are you still working on it, or have you given up on that?

Truth (revealed truth) - regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ, in my opinion, were/is safeguarded by the Catholic Church via the guidance of the holy spirit, until the end of time, so, unlike you, I believe that I have a good way of knowing truth from error and it has nothing to do with my private interpretation of the bible, which is what you are suggesting (private interpretation via each and every Christian) - when you say:

Wherever the truth happens to be.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Hey cooterhein…

So you don’t know? Got it.

Truth (revealed truth) - regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ, in my opinion, were/is safeguarded by the Catholic Church via the guidance of the holy spirit, until the end of time, so, unlike you, I believe that I have a good way of knowing truth from error and it has nothing to do with my private interpretation of the bible, which is what you are suggesting (private interpretation via each and every Christian) - when you say:

Wherever the truth happens to be.

The Roman Catholic Church is schismatic. The only receptacle of truth regarding the teaching of Jesus Christ is in the Orthodox Church, the one true holy and apostolic church, where the faith of the Apostles is safeguarded and guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

The Roman Catholic Church is schismatic. The only receptacle of truth regarding the teaching of Jesus Christ is in the Orthodox Church, the one true holy and apostolic church, where the faith of the Apostles is safeguarded and guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time.

What, you don’t think Catholics have an answer for that argument?

It’s a completely seperate debate. May I ask,why do you agree with the Orthodox (as you claim) and not the Catholics? Why are they necessarily right?

 

[joe370]

The Roman Catholic Church is schismatic. The only receptacle of truth regarding the teaching of Jesus Christ is in the Orthodox Church, the one true holy and apostolic church, where the faith of the Apostles is safeguarded and guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time.

Mike, so you, as a Lutheran (according to your profile) - believe that the answer to my OP is: the Eastern Orthodox Church, (NOT private judgment) - the one true holy and apostolic church, where the faith of the Apostles is safeguarded and guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time?

Why don’t you belong to the EOC?

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Mike, so you, as a Lutheran (according to your profile) - believe that the answer to my OP is: the Eastern Orthodox Church, (NOT private judgment) - the one true holy and apostolic church, where the faith of the Apostles is safeguarded and guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time?

Why don’t you belong to the EOC?

Because my tradition is so closely tied to that of the Roman Catholic Church, that it would be impossible for us to reconcile with the true church until the Roman Catholic Church would become reconciled to the one true church.

 

[joe370]

Because my tradition is so closely tied to that of the Roman Catholic Church, that it would be impossible for us to reconcile with the true church until the Roman Catholic Church would become reconciled to the one true church.

I understand Mike; that is the position JonNC takes and I certainly respect that position brother.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[cooterhein]

So you don’t know? Got it.

You didn’t get it from me.

I believe that I have a good way of knowing truth from error and it has nothing to do with my private interpretation of the bible, which is what you are suggesting

 

[simspt]

I said God is sovereign over doctrinal truth in the same way that He’s sovereign over everything. Take you, for example. God is sovereign over your life. That doesn’t mean every single thing that happens to you is good, or that everything you touch comes up roses. It’s the same with doctrinal truth and any body of believers that has a hand in espousing or defending it. God is sovereign over what any of them do, but that doesn’t mean any one group is guaranteed perfection at all times. That’s not what it means for God to be sovereign over something.

God’s sovereignty is not synonymous with a divine guarantee of protection from error, nor is it possible to demonstrate that one necessitates the other. That’s the main idea here.

The process of the development of doctrine in the Church especially during the second through fourth centuries was anything but roses (eg, bishops being murdered by angry mobs of followers of other bishops (George), doctrinal debates Arian controversy etc). The NT canon process was messy also. Was God’s sovereignty or providence any guarantee or protection from error over the final products of these processes? To my understanding most Christians have faith the answer is yes regardless of how messy the process might have been. This has alway been difficult for me to grasp.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

What, you don’t think Catholics have an answer for that argument?

I’m sure they do.

It’s a completely seperate debate. May I ask,why do you agree with the Orthodox (as you claim) and not the Catholics? Why are they necessarily right?

From my perspective they have as much claim if not more to the whole truth nothing but the truth argument as the Roman Church. Why do you thing the Roman Church is necessarily right?

 

[joe370]

Mikeoffaith you said:

From my perspective they have as much claim if not more to the whole truth nothing but the truth argument as the Roman Church.

Evidence please? Jesus said that he would build his church on Kepha, which is what the CC teaches and believes, (no other church, regardless of denomination, teaches this) - and the EOC believes that Jesus’ church was/is built on Kepha’s confession. Click on the pic below and let me know if you agree with it?

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Is God still in control regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth in the church founded by God, or, has the sin of man trumped the will of God, thereby making it impossible to know, with certainty, the truth regarding certain doctrinal truths that continue to divide Christianity?

I think:

1. God is sovereign.
2. Humans are generally pretty dense and egoistic.
3. God knows that #2 is the case and yet gives us the free will to struggle.

 

[Nicea325]

Because my tradition is so closely tied to that of the Roman Catholic Church, that it would be impossible for us to reconcile with the true church until the Roman Catholic Church would become reconciled to the one true church.

The one true church? Then when are you going to show us the overwhelming historical facts the church Christ founded was called the Orthodox Church? I have yet to read a single shred of evidence from you. You constantly repeating the same lines does not make a historical fact.

 

[Nicea325]

The Roman Catholic Church is schismatic. The only receptacle of truth regarding the teaching of Jesus Christ is in the Orthodox Church, the one true holy and apostolic church, where the faith of the Apostles is safeguarded and guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time.

The RCC is schismatic according to YOU,which really has no bearing at all. If the RCC is schismatic,then the Lutheran church is heretical.

 

[joe370]

Mike, if the RCC is schismatic so are all of the Protestant churches for the simple fact that all of them are offshoots of the supposed schismatic RCC, or offshoots of other Protestant churches that preceded them - correct?

 

[joe370]

I think:

1. God is sovereign.
2. Humans are generally pretty dense and egoistic.
3. God knows that #2 is the case and yet gives us the free will to struggle.

So what was your answer to the following?

Is God still in control regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth in the church founded by God, or, has the sin of man trumped the will of God, thereby making it impossible to know, with certainty, the truth regarding certain doctrinal truths that continue to divide Christianity?