Is God omnipresent?

[VanitasVanitatum]

For this reason, I see no problem with Catholics not attending Church.

It’s a matter of obedience.

 

[LateCatholic]

It’s a matter of obedience.

Right. But that’s the earthly side of Church saying that. Not really important to me.
From God’s perspective, it means nothing if I go to Church or not.
I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. I just see no benefit for ME at this time.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

From God’s perspective, it means nothing if I go to Church or not.

God gave authority to the Church and instituted things like the Sabbath which is pretty similar. Not sure if you believe in this, but that’s the theological reason.

 

[LateCatholic]

From God’s perspective, it means nothing if I go to Church or not.

So the people that benefit from me attending Church claim that God gave them the authority to demand I attend Church?

Perhaps you see why I am skeptical.

Here’s the real interesting question, one I have thought about (and it bothers me) for years.
Let’s say I am a moral, upstanding Christian. I do not (or rarely) sin. Let’s say, for arguments sake, I have a priest I know that gives me weekly sacraments (to get that out of the discussion).
But I think attending Church is a waste of time.
My neighbor is a sinner. Does horrible things. Evil man. But he attends Church regularly. Does he get “points” from a theological perspective? How much? A lot? A little? Do I lose “points”?
Communal, educational, and general well-being (earthly) benefits aside, why does one need to attend Church physically if God is everywhere?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

That you know whether God cares or not has about the same merits.

 

[LateCatholic]

That you know whether God cares or not has about the same merits.

Exactly. WHY would God care at ALL?
Church attendance appears to be of earthly benefit only. Explain why I am wrong.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

My neighbor is a sinner. Does horrible things. Evil man. But he attends Church regularly. Does he get “points” from a theological perspective? How much? A lot? A little? Do I lose “points”?

Both are in the wrong from a Catholic perspective. Since malice is worse than inconstancy then the latter would be worse. There are mitigating factors, but whether they apply or not and to what extent are not really knowable.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Exactly. WHY would God care at ALL?
Church attendance appears to be of earthly benefit only. Explain why I am wrong.

God could care or not care about anything He wants and there is no way of knowing. Anyways since the Church’s authority can be interpreted to be based on Scripture than it is on those grounds.

 

[thistle]

Right. But that’s the earthly side of Church saying that. Not really important to me.
From God’s perspective, it means nothing if I go to Church or not.
I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. I just see no benefit for ME at this time.

I just see no benefit for ME at this time

By deliberately not attending Sunday Mass you put yourself in a state of mortal sin. How does that benefit you if you suddenly die?

 

[De_Maria]

None of your response addresses the challenge.

Sure it does.

The original poster asked why one needs to go to Church if “God is everywhere”.

I addressed his concerns in a separate post.

That is a very good question,

Did I say it wasn’t?

one that, I - a 50 yr old Catholic - have never gotten a good answer for.

You mean, that you didn’t like the answer. I certainly like the answers given to you on this forum and the answer I provided, as well.

The answer was "God is like water. It’s always in the atmosphere, but you can only drink from a fountain.

I like it. I think I’ll use it next time. Thanks.

In my opinion, this is a terrible answer.

Everyone has a right to his opinion.

It means God is MORE present in some places than others.

That’s God’s prerogative. But, as I told you, you’re looking at God from a material perspective. God is everywhere. But whether God allows you to see Him in certain places is His prerogative. And He allows people to seem more clearly in some places than others. As well, He allows some people to see Him and doesn’t allow others.

God’s in charge, not you.

Or his presence in one location is DIFFERENT than his presence in another.
That means God’s presence is MEASURABLE. You have said nothing to refute this.

I don’t have to. When you can measure God’s presence, get back to me.

Your quote from scripture implies that God is everywhere and always, and unchanged. But that refutes the original poster’s answer, not mine. You are in essence justifying my point.

On the contrary, you seem to be missing the entire point. Case in point, I didn’t refute the original poster. I responded to his question.

What I am trying to say is that IF God is everywhere, you don’t need to go to Church to pray.

Again, you don’t make the rules. God does. And God expects you to be at Mass at least on Sundays. Otherwise, He will count you among His enemies because it displays your ungratefulness for being saved.

Hebrews 10:25-31 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
25 We should not stay away from our assembly,[a] as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who rejects the law of Moses[c] is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? 30 We know the one who said:

“Vengeance is mine; I will repay,”

and again:

“The Lord will judge his people.”

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Wesrock]

Could you explain a bit more, on the “cause is present to its effects” bit? Your answers have been quite extensively helpful

I am following what was taught by St. Thomas Aquinas on this point. Aquinas’ physics example of light in the following passage is a little outdated, but the principle holds.

God is in all things; not … as part of their essence,… but as an agent is present to that upon which it works. For an agent must be joined to that wherein it acts immediately and touch it by its power; hence it is proved in Phys. vii that the thing moved and the mover must be joined together. Now since God is very being by His own essence, created being must be His proper effect… Now God causes this effect in things not only when they first begin to be, but as long as they are preserved in being; as light is caused in the air by the sun as long as the air remains illuminated. Therefore as long as a thing has being, God must be present to it, according to its mode of being. But being is innermost in each thing and most fundamentally inherent in all things since it is formal in respect of everything found in a thing, as was shown above (I:7:1). Hence it must be that God is in all things, and innermostly.

And a little later…

Therefore, God is in all things by His power, inasmuch as all things are subject to His power; He is by His presence in all things, as all things are bare and open to His eyes; He is in all things by His essence, inasmuch as He is present to all as the cause of their being.

My apologies for not using my own words tonight.

But God causes all things not just as their beginning. At every moment he is acting upon each and every thing, given it being. And therefore as the cause of these things and acting upon them, he is present to them.

 

[Dan_Defender]

It’s fundamental to Christianity to gather together to worship the Lord, and to engage in liturgy, and ritual. It’s plain in Scripture that this is a good and worthy and spiritually helpful thing. The most important is to receive the Eucharist for our spiritual benefit.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

We are called to communal worship in the liturgy, and so a common place to gather is appropriate, and if we have a common place to gather specifically for celebrating the liturgy, we can express our love and reverence for that purpose by elevating the space of worship. Churches are set aside for the explicit purpose of worship, which allows us to really focus on that purpose.

This is a fine answer. But in essence, and I agree with you - the purpose of attending Church is COMMUNAL, not THEOLOGICAL. For this reason, I see no problem with Catholics not attending Church. It is not necessary. I know why position is not condoned - but if there is no theological reason to attend Church, and I don’t think it helps me, I won’t. Now, I do often bring my children. And I do attend for certain services.
But, at my current age (and it probably will change), I don;t see any benefit. In fact, I often get more frustrated when I attend.

The theological reason is that it’s the type of worship instituted by God for our good, and is appropriate and natural to the type of being we are.

Furthermore, another type of presence of God is his indwelling by grace. To quote Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,

In addition to this general, natural presence of God, there is also a special supernatural presence or indwelling of God, by the supernatural efficacy of his grace, in the soul of the just man, in the house of the God, and in Heaven. The indwelling of God is in the humanity of Christ on the basis of the Hypostatic Union is unique.

 

[LateCatholic]

By deliberately not attending Sunday Mass you put yourself in a state of mortal sin. How does that benefit you if you suddenly die?

I do not see it that way. I realize the Church elders want me to go to Church, for obvious reasons.
But I see no reason to attend, since as the original poster stated, God is everywhere.
I do not believe prayers are more powerful in some places than others, I do not believe God is ‘more’ present in some places than others.
I find it inconsistent to claim that attending Church has theological value. It certainly could have earthly value. No doubt. But my point is that I do not think you get “credit” when you die based on how often you attended mass. That’s too easy.

 

[thistle]

I do not see it that way. I realize the Church elders want me to go to Church, for obvious reasons.
But I see no reason to attend, since as the original poster stated, God is everywhere.
I do not believe prayers are more powerful in some places than others, I do not believe God is ‘more’ present in some places than others.
I find it inconsistent to claim that attending Church has theological value. It certainly could have earthly value. No doubt. But my point is that I do not think you get “credit” when you die based on how often you attended mass. That’s too easy.

It is not Church elders that want you to go. It is God. God gave the Church authority in matters of faith and morals. All teachings are backed by the full authority of God. What is bound on earth is bound in Heaven.
If you reject a Church teaching then you are rejecting God.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

But my point is that I do not think you get “credit” when you die based on how often you attended mass.

There’s hardly a reason to think you get credit at all no matter what is done.

 

[LateCatholic]

It is not Church elders that want you to go. It is God. God gave the Church authority in matters of faith and morals. All teachings are backed by the full authority of God. What is bound on earth is bound in Heaven.

It is the Church elders claiming this, not God.
You are still not addressing the point. If God is omnipresent, why do I need to go to a special location for theological benefit?
I agree there are earthly benefits, but if I feel I do not need those benefits, why must I go?
I’ve seen the following answers:

• because God is “more” present at a Church
• because prayers are “more” effective at a Church
• because we are told to and we should not question it

As I said, there are many EARTHLY benefits. Educational, communal. We all know Church attendance increases stability of the institution.
But why, from a theological perspective, must one attend Church?

The only reasonable answer I’ve seen so far is that the God’s proxies on earth claim it is a requirement for God’s grace. But that is no different than “because we say so”. I also don’t like that answer, because it implies those with means (money/transportation/time) may obtain grace more easily than others - especially the less fortunate.

I hope you can see why the answers are unsatisfactory.

 

[thistle]

It is the Church elders claiming this, not God.

YOU are wrong. IF you believe that Christ established the Catholic Church as the one true Church, entrusted it with the Deposit of Faith, and gave it authority to teach in matters of faith and morals then you KNOW that all teachings of the Church are backed by the authority of God and are not in error.
Mass attendance on Sundays is infallibly taught. Anyone who rejects this puts themselves in a state of mortal sin. God through his Church trumps your private opinion about benefits.
God asks for your obedience.

 

[Wesrock]

I also don’t like that answer, because it implies those with means (money/transportation/time) may obtain grace more easily than others - especially the less fortunate.

It’s not about being penalized if you don’t have the means, it’s about having the means but disregarding it anyway. It’s about what that says about the interior disposition of a person.

 

[De_Maria]

It is the Church elders claiming this, not God.

Even if you were right, we know that God put the Catholic Church in charge. He gave her authority to make all men disciples. What authority do you have to disregard her rules?

You are still not addressing the point. If God is omnipresent, why do I need to go to a special location for theological benefit?

The point has been addressed. You simply want to disregard the answer.
Here it is in all caps. BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO.

I agree there are earthly benefits, but if I feel I do not need those benefits, why must I go?

The benefits for each and everyone of us, are spiritual.

I’ve seen the following answers:

• because God is “more” present at a Church
• because prayers are “more” effective at a Church
• because we are told to and we should not question it

You’ve seen more answers than that, simply on this thread.
You simply disregard them all.

As I said, there are many EARTHLY benefits. Educational, communal. We all know Church attendance increases stability of the institution.
But why, from a theological perspective, must one attend Church?

1st. Because it is ordained by God.
2nd. Because He explained that all who neglect the Mass (i.e. Church)
are, in so doing, showing their ingratitude for the Sacrifice of His Body and Blood, which Jesus Christ performed upon the Cross.
3rd. Because it is in the Mass that we receive the Eucharist, which is the food of eternal life.
4th. God further explained that all who neglect the Mass, become His enemies.

The only reasonable answer I’ve seen so far is that the God’s proxies on earth claim it is a requirement for God’s grace. But that is no different than “because we say so”.

And yours is what? Your is basically, “because I say so” in response.
And you’ve now put yourself in the position of claiming to have equal or greater authority than the Church which Jesus Christ established.

I also don’t like that answer, because it implies those with means (money/transportation/time) may obtain grace more easily than others - especially the less fortunate.

Then, you’ve not understood your faith.

Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I hope you can see why the answers are unsatisfactory.

I see that you don’t like the answers. But the answers are satisfactory. It is your objections to the answers provided which are lacking. You are challenging the divine authority of Christ with your own personal opinions.