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Pieman333272
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According to Catholic Doctrine, is God responsible for all good? Even good that happens as a result of human free will and random chance?
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Heliotropium
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In Catholic doctrine there is no such thing as random chance, luck, or coincidence. Also yes all good is from God since He is goodness itself. Anything that is good in us can only be attributed to God since we are not capable of doing good without God because of our fallen nature. Our nature is inclined to evil which is why it’s easier for us to do the wrong thing than the right thing.
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ConstantineTG
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The proper wording is “source”. There is nothing that is good without God. God is the source of all good things.
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JDaniel
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Pieman:
A thing is not good because it is sought; rather, it is sought because it is good. And, since God created everything and is its source, and, is the pinnacle of good, in the category of good, he is responsible, if by ‘responsible’ you mean its producer and category-maker. The second part of your question is puzzling. I know what you are getting at, but to be precise, ‘random chance’ = disordered homogeneity. The two words describe very different things. Take 1,000 beans: 600 black ones and 400 red ones. Mix them thoroughly in some barrel. Now, when we take a shovel and scoop out exactly 100 beans, we will (extraordinarily high probability) get 60 black ones and 40 red ones. That’s “randomness,” and as such, it is a type of order. Now, let’s say I was conducting this experiment in an open barn. A little later I leave the beans for a while to do something else. During that intermission, some birds enter the barn a devour some of the beans. That’s “disorder,” “chance.”
Now, certainly men (and women!) can produce good. But, are they the primary cause, or a secondary cause? Is man the beginning of that production beyond any shadow of doubt?
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Pieman333272
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I understand - as we are God’s creation, our good is his product. And God is not responsible for our evil, due to the fall’s responsibility of such. And you’re correct about my usage of random chance. Perhaps I should have used natural goods - good things that don’t happen out of the will of any person or animal, or by intervention (so it seems!), but just by nature doing its thing. Like rain giving a community water they need or the weather warming up o melt ice on a road independently of other factors?
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Pieman333272
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Also, if God is the ultimate source for human good, can we rightly reward people for good deeds?
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Heliotropium
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Yes we can because the intention is from them and is a result of the correct use of their free will to do the will of God. I think of it as me rewarding them and thanking them for following Gods Will.
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4Horsemen
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All wisdom comes from the Lord, it says in the Book of Ecclesiastes, and with him it remains forever, and is before all time . . . and he has poured her forth upon all his works. Eccles.1:1,8
God, being infinite wisdom and acting Himself, cannot act except in an infinitely wise manner. Therefore, His works are so perfect and could not be better. Everything He made from the beginning of the universe, He calls “good.” God places us in the most suitable situation for working out our salvation, treating us ever so gently, not in His sovereign authority as just judge, but in His Divine Mercy.
Although we use our free will to decide if whether or not to accept this grace, God sets things up not for failure but for our success. So He brings about our fortune (and misfortune) for our greater good. What we do with His workings is our own choice.
God, being infinite wisdom and acting Himself, cannot act except in an infinitely wise manner. Therefore, His works are so perfect and could not be better. Everything He made from the beginning of the universe, He calls “good.” God places us in the most suitable situation for working out our salvation, treating us ever so gently, not in His sovereign authority as just judge, but in His Divine Mercy.
Although we use our free will to decide if whether or not to accept this grace, God sets things up not for failure but for our success. So He brings about our fortune (and misfortune) for our greater good. What we do with His workings is our own choice.
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tonyrey
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We must be responsible for some good because we are responsible for some evil! God is ultimately responsible for all good and all evil because He created everything but that is a far cry from willing things to happen. He intervenes on occasion to promote good and prevent evil but as a general rule events in this world are due to human decisions and natural causes.
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Pieman333272
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But if God created evil with intent, doesn’t that make him evil, or at least limited in benevolence? And doesn’t that contradict God’s statement “it is good”?
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itsjustdave1988
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I think we ought to be more precise about our terms as to what “evil” is. There is such a thing as “moral evil.” This is what God, because he is all-good, cannot produce. There is also such a thing as “punitive evil” which clearly God does produce, and does so justly.
God cannot sin (moral evil) because he is perfect. Moral evil (sin) is evil which consists in the defect of thought, word, or deed. It is always caused by the defect of the agent. In God there is no defect, but perfection. Hence, moral evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, cannot have God as its cause. God helps his creation overcome their defect of action (sin), but does not force them to act contrary to their free will. In otherwords, with regard to moral evil, *God in His providence, though infinitely good and powerful, permits moral evil to exist in the world, partly that greater good may not be impeded, and partly that greater evil may not ensue.
*God punishes the wicked. If there was never a sin (as was the case before the fall of angels and man), God would never have cause to create such punishment. God’s just punishment is what is referred to by Catholic theology as the “evil of penalty.” It does not exist except for prior sin. I understand that it is odd to call such *just punishment *“evil” but that is how Sacred Scripture often describes it. For example, “if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to i**t” (Jer 18:8). This is the evil created by God spoken of in Is 45:7 and like passages in Amos and elsewhere. One ought not to confuse this kind of evil for moral evil, that is sin.
God does not sin nor directly cause the sin of others, but he does tolerate sin to exist in the world, partly that greater good may not be impeded, and partly that greater evil may not ensue.
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itsjustdave1988
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Here are some Catholic theology references which may help illuminate the distinctions between the punitive evil willed by God and the moral evil (sin) which God cannot commit…
According to Dr. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:
Which means, “***God co-operates immediately in ***every act of his creatures” (Ott, 88). This is called by Catholic theology, according to Fr. John Hardon, “Divine concurrence or concursus” (Fr. John Hardon, *God the Author of Nature and the Supernatural, Part one, Thesis II). *It is based upon the teaching of the Roman Catechism which states that God “by an internal power impels to motion and action whatever moves and acts” (Roman Catechism, Article I).
So if man or demon moves or acts contrary to God’s will, by Divine concurrence, that is, by an internal power, God impels to action even the sinful acts of His creation.
That is why it is important to distinguish between the Natural Order and the Supernatural Order when speaking of God’s co-operation with creation, as is taught by the Church.
According to Dr. Ott:
According to Dr. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:
Nonetheless, God co-operates in every action of every creature, because “God Himself, or the Divine nature, is in immediate contact with, or immanent in, every creature– conserving it in being and enabling it to act” (Catholic Encyclopedia - Nature and Attributes of God).
Which means, “***God co-operates immediately in ***every act of his creatures” (Ott, 88). This is called by Catholic theology, according to Fr. John Hardon, “Divine concurrence or concursus” (Fr. John Hardon, *God the Author of Nature and the Supernatural, Part one, Thesis II). *It is based upon the teaching of the Roman Catechism which states that God “by an internal power impels to motion and action whatever moves and acts” (Roman Catechism, Article I).
So if man or demon moves or acts contrary to God’s will, by Divine concurrence, that is, by an internal power, God impels to action even the sinful acts of His creation.
That is why it is important to distinguish between the Natural Order and the Supernatural Order when speaking of God’s co-operation with creation, as is taught by the Church.
According to Dr. Ott:
Thus, while God activates the sensual and spiritual powers of every creature, the moral defect is not a result of that activation, but is the result of a defective use of the gift of free will.
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francisca
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4Horsemen
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Very well stated.
St. Alphonsus and other saints stress the same point regarding “punitive evil”, which is willed by God, and “moral evil”, which is chosen by man. Following is a paragraph from the section “Conformity in all things” in the treatise, Uniformity With God’s Will.
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Pieman333272
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Thanks for your answers so far. I have two questions based on the last paragraph, though I may be misunderstanding:
- If God wills our suffering, even without willing the sin, isn’t that still evil? Like, isn’t he then willing the mortification of a girl being raped?
- If all our actions play out to God’s will, where does our free will come in? Does God work it out no matter what, and it plays out in that way, or what?
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JDaniel
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Pieman:
Hmmm. Well, that’s all tied up in the peculiarities of reward and need for recognition as a kind of incarnation of grace, I think. When one thinks of “rightly,” as you mean it here, one cannot disengage it from deservance.
God bless,
jd
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JDaniel
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Dave:
Yes, because if ‘evil’ is the absence of “good,” or more precisely, “God,” as Catholicism explains, then ‘evil’ can only exist where there is that sort of ‘vacuum’ where God isn’t. So, the “evil of punishment” is that where and when there is not God.
God bless,
jd
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itsjustdave1988
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Leo XIII wrote, in Libertas, a statement which I think every Christian ought to commit to memory: “God Himself in His providence, though infinitely good and powerful, permits evil to exist in the world, partly that greater good may not be impeded, and partly that greater evil may not ensue.” (Libertas, 33).
Man use to live in paradise, without any suffering whatsever. Suffering entered the world only as a consequence of man’s sin. In other words, the ultimate cause of suffering is sin, which was due to man’s misuse of a Divine gift, free will. Is it better to have no free will? Would that be a greater good? I don’t think so.
Given that we do have suffering in the world, which only came to use through original sin, we now have this inherited brokenness about us, this fallen nature we inherited as a consequence of orgininal sin of our first parents. We are no longer born in a state of grace, as Adam and Eve were when they were created. Grace is that supernatural “catalyst” so to speak, which elevates our human nature. Without it, we have a fallen nature. We lack many other gifts which were taken away as punishment for original sin. The entire progeny of Adam and Eve share in that punishment, unless by special intervention of God, we are spared from that punishment.
That special intervension of God is when we are given sanctifying grace from God. This gifts is gratuitous, not deserved. When God gives us this grace, we are no longer suffering due to punishment. And yet, we still suffer from time to time, don’t we? Why? As an occasion for merit, which pronounces the greater glory of God. As a consequence of the fall caused by the misuse of freedom by Adam and Eve, God permits both joy and suffering for one reason and one reason only, because in his Divine wisdom, it is conducive the eternal salvation of our souls, which includes rewards beyond our imagination.
Moral conduct necessarily includes the obligation to always choose the greater good or the lesser evil. This is what God does. This is what we must also do.
I’ll give you an analogy. I have a teenager, who when he was 15 years old started dating a girl that I knew was going to cause him incredible suffering. I advised against dating this girl, but teenagers being as they are, don’t always see the wisdom in the council of their fathers. Could I have kept him from suffering? Perhaps. But even if I had the almighty power to keep him from every kind of suffering, I wouldn’t. Why? Because of what I know about suffering. Suffering builds character. Even if I could remove all the suffering from my son’s life, it was not be the greater good, as it would deprive him of the character-building experience he most certainly needed.
From a supernatural point of view, our faith is made “complete” , “fulfilled” by works (cf. Letter of James). That work includes suffering wrongs patiently. Could God remove all of our suffering? Certainly, He’s omnipotent. Satan and all the evils spirits that wander about the world seeking to ruin souls, they can only existed because God allows it, He concurs that they should exist. He gives each and every creature continued existence AND the most wonderful gift of freedom. Why freedom? Because it is a necessary condition for LOVE, the greatest gift of all. Many of God’s creatures, while given these wonderful gifts, choose to misuse them (i.e. sin, moral evil). God does not CAUSE them to choose falsely, but does give them the freedom to do so, because LOVE is nothing if not a free giving of one’s self to another. Love urges us, but never forces us.
See above. God wills that those who misuse freedom contrary to His will, do so at their peril. He also wills that those who justly and lovingly use the gift of freedom, receive great reward. All this is according to His will.
Despite any suffering we may endure in this life, either through just punishment or for the opportunity to meritoriously recieve a greater good, we suffer because it is conducive to the salvation of souls. “All things work together for the good of those that love the Lord” (Rom 8:28)
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itsjustdave1988
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St. Paul tells us,
Scripture speaks of “reward.” What does this mean? In the Acts of the Apostles, we are called to “repent, turn toward God, and do the WORKS (Greek “ergon”) WORTHY (Greek “axios”) of repentance.” (Acts 26:20). In other words, Catholics get the notion of “meritorious works” from Sacred Scripture. But what does this notion of worthy deeds and reward mean? Isn’t God the cause of all our good?
Protestants often rail against the Catholic doctrine of meritorious works. Yet, when I ask them to explain what they think this means, they fumble around claiming something about “works salvation”, or something of the sort. In other words, they don’t have a clue what they are talking about. They don’t really know what the Church teaches regarding meritorious works, but whatever it is, they were told by their pastor that it is wrong, and they simply take their pastor at his word. They fail to “test everything” (1 Thess 5:21) as Scripture demands.
What does the Church teach regarding meritorious works? How is it possible that the faithful can be REWARDED for any of our works, as Scripture clearly states? Don’t we owe everything to God?
Firstly, let’s turn to Matt ch. 25:
Notice that both the “righteous” and those called 'cursed" by the Lord each claim Him as their “Lord.” What’s the difference? The righteous fulfill their faith through WORKS, and as a consequence are given the reward of eternal life. The “cursed” on the other hand, did not fulfill their faith through WORKS, and as a consequence, they were sent away to “eternal punishment.”
Catholic doctrine teaches we are justified by “Faith that worketh charity” (Gal 5:6). It isn’t simply any works that will due, but only works of charity accomplished by those with faith. Calling Jesus “Lord, Lord” simply does not suffice. He actually has to BE your Lord throughout your life.
Justification is not a “one time” event. Rev 22:11 says, “he that is just (Gk adj., “dikaios”), let him be justified (Gk verb, “dikaioo”) still.” Justifying faith is called faith “formed by” love, because good works (love) strengthen, “complete” or “perfect” our faith.
to be continued…
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
continued…
What is “merit?”
Merit (as a noun) derives from Latin *meritum, *which means “reward due.” it is akin to the Greek meiresthai, “to recieve as one’s portion,” and *meros, *“part.”
Merit (as a verb) can also mean "to be worthy of"
There are two kinds of merit (reward) which depends upon whether the merit is due according to justice or merely out of graciousness.
Condign Merit - reward due from justice; equality between service and return. An example would be when we receive a "just payment for work performed."
**Congruous Merit **- reward given out of graciusness. Examples include gratuities (i.e. giving a tip to a waitress) and military decorations. These are not due out of strict justice, but as a reward apart from the just pay for work performed. This kind of reward is always dependent upon the kindness of the giver. Yet, the reward is not simply given capriciously, but is instead given “congruent” with the will of the one giving the reward.
In the supernatural order, Jesus Christ did the WORK of our salvation, and as such MERITED eternal life for all, as CONDIGN merit. Yet, the faithful may still merit in the sense of “reward given out of graciousness” or CONGRUOUS merit, which is never deserved from the strict view of justice, but is rewarded CONGRUENT with the will of God, the one giving the reward.
When we do this to the least of our neighbors, we do this to the Lord, as Matt 25 teaches.
Likewise, when the faithful perform MERITORIOUS DEED (Gk axios ergon), congruent with the will of the almighty Gift-Giver, then He does as He has promised, and gives a REWARD (congruent merit).
Does these mean that the meritorious work we do OBLIGES God to give us the GIFTS he does give? No. Man cannot oblige God as we have never DESERVED in the strict sense of condign merit the rewards of eternal life. The gifts we receive from God are never strictly deserved, but given to us out of God’s graciousness. This is what St. Augustine means when he wrote in his Confessions, “When God crowns our merits, he does nothing else than crown his own gifts.”
What is “merit?”
Merit (as a noun) derives from Latin *meritum, *which means “reward due.” it is akin to the Greek meiresthai, “to recieve as one’s portion,” and *meros, *“part.”
Merit (as a verb) can also mean "to be worthy of"
There are two kinds of merit (reward) which depends upon whether the merit is due according to justice or merely out of graciousness.
Condign Merit - reward due from justice; equality between service and return. An example would be when we receive a "just payment for work performed."
**Congruous Merit **- reward given out of graciusness. Examples include gratuities (i.e. giving a tip to a waitress) and military decorations. These are not due out of strict justice, but as a reward apart from the just pay for work performed. This kind of reward is always dependent upon the kindness of the giver. Yet, the reward is not simply given capriciously, but is instead given “congruent” with the will of the one giving the reward.
In the supernatural order, Jesus Christ did the WORK of our salvation, and as such MERITED eternal life for all, as CONDIGN merit. Yet, the faithful may still merit in the sense of “reward given out of graciousness” or CONGRUOUS merit, which is never deserved from the strict view of justice, but is rewarded CONGRUENT with the will of God, the one giving the reward.
Yes, we can pay our employees a just wage for work performed (condign merit) and also reward people out of graciousness for that work performed congruent with the will of the gift-giver (congruent merit).
When we do this to the least of our neighbors, we do this to the Lord, as Matt 25 teaches.
Likewise, when the faithful perform MERITORIOUS DEED (Gk axios ergon), congruent with the will of the almighty Gift-Giver, then He does as He has promised, and gives a REWARD (congruent merit).
Does these mean that the meritorious work we do OBLIGES God to give us the GIFTS he does give? No. Man cannot oblige God as we have never DESERVED in the strict sense of condign merit the rewards of eternal life. The gifts we receive from God are never strictly deserved, but given to us out of God’s graciousness. This is what St. Augustine means when he wrote in his Confessions, “When God crowns our merits, he does nothing else than crown his own gifts.”
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