Is God Separating the Wheat from the Chaff?

[oppositeman]

It should be obvious to most Catholics by now that Pope Francis is moving our Church in a new direction. There are many changes being discussed.

I am not interested in discussing these in this post, but would like you to consider the following.

So, we have those who support him and those that don’t. First of all, both sides can’t be right - one is in harmony with God’s Truth and the other not.

Secondly, knowing we all believe what we want and go to great lengths to support our beliefs - even to the extent of rationalizing, denying, and twisting facts.

Thirdly, we all believe things that are not true - the problem being trying to figure out what those things are, which we all should do, so we are living totally in God’s Truth.

Fourthly, God’s Truth may be something we don’t want to believe, but I think we all would agree that we should be given the chance of accepting or rejecting it.

It seems to me that God is allowing all this for one very good reason - it helps Him separate out the wheat from the chaff.

Well, our eternal salvation is at stake so we all need to take this very seriously.

Our responsibility to ourselves is stay educated and our responsibility to others is to at least make them aware, if they are not, of our church which seems to be on the brink of perhaps some changes that are a departure from the Tradition of Faith.

So the questions is - Is some or all of this coming from God or not?

 

[Paganus]

It should be obvious to most Catholics by now that Pope Francis is moving our Church in a new direction. There are many changes being discussed.

When I’ve finished reading all of Cardinal Ratzinger/ Pope Benedict XVI’s books, then I will read Pope Francis’ books. Until then - deum benedicite in papam!

 

[oppositeman]

When I’ve finished reading all of Cardinal Ratzinger/ Pope Benedict XVI’s books, then I will read Pope Francis’ books. Until then - deum benedicite in papam!

I don’t think you will find the answer in a book, but only through a relationship with Him will you know who God is.

 

[Catholic1954]

It should be obvious to most Catholics by now that Pope Francis is moving our Church in a new direction. There are many changes being discussed.

I am not interested in discussing these in this post, but would like you to consider the following.

So, we have those who support him and those that don’t. First of all, both sides can’t be right - one is in harmony with God’s Truth and the other not.

Secondly, knowing we all believe what we want and go to great lengths to support our beliefs - even to the extent of rationalizing, denying, and twisting facts.

Thirdly, we all believe things that are not true - the problem being trying to figure out what those things are, which we all should do, so we are living totally in God’s Truth.

Fourthly, God’s Truth may be something we don’t want to believe, but I think we all would agree that we should be given the chance of accepting or rejecting it.

It seems to me that God is allowing all this for one very good reason - it helps Him separate out the wheat from the chaff.

Well, our eternal salvation is at stake so we all need to take this very seriously.

Our responsibility to ourselves is stay educated and our responsibility to others is to at least make them aware, if they are not, of our church which seems to be on the brink of perhaps some changes that are a departure from the Tradition of Faith.

So the questions is - Is some or all of this coming from God or not?

Like it or not, the Holy Spirit chose Pope Francis to lead His Church at this time; we should trust that he knows what he is doing and it will all turn out according to His plan in the end.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Whether God is causing it or allowing it, He has His hand in it. Have faith…

 

[JPUSC]

"The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres…churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.

“The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”

Our Lady of Akita

 

[RomanoAmerio]

Dear oppositeman,

God has been separating the wheat from the chaff ever since the Resurrection of Christ and the founding of His Church. One could argue that the process was going on even prior to that, but we can always take that as a valid starting point.

Do you remember the parable of the weeds and the wheat? Even in His Church, good and evil will co-exist because some of us are stubborn, resistant to the graces of the Holy Spirit, and hard of heart. That does not mean that the rest of us need to despair. On the last day - be it the last one of our life or Judgment Day itself - He will know His own.

 

[dshix]

It should be obvious to most Catholics by now that Pope Francis is moving our Church in a new direction. There are many changes being discussed.

I am not interested in discussing these in this post, but would like you to consider the following.

So, we have those who support him and those that don’t. First of all, both sides can’t be right - one is in harmony with God’s Truth and the other not.

Secondly, knowing we all believe what we want and go to great lengths to support our beliefs - even to the extent of rationalizing, denying, and twisting facts.

Thirdly, we all believe things that are not true - the problem being trying to figure out what those things are, which we all should do, so we are living totally in God’s Truth.

Fourthly, God’s Truth may be something we don’t want to believe, but I think we all would agree that we should be given the chance of accepting or rejecting it.

It seems to me that God is allowing all this for one very good reason - it helps Him separate out the wheat from the chaff.

Well, our eternal salvation is at stake so we all need to take this very seriously.

Our responsibility to ourselves is stay educated and our responsibility to others is to at least make them aware, if they are not, of our church which seems to be on the brink of perhaps some changes that are a departure from the Tradition of Faith.

So the questions is - Is some or all of this coming from God or not?

OP, you are incorrect to see this as a black-and-white issue. As with many things in life, it is not so.

You say that “we have those who support him and those that don’t”. Yes, and no. There are those who support Francis by virtue of the fact that he is Pope, but do not share his opinions on certain things. These certain things do not reduce our ability to respect him and pray for him as our pope.

The people in error here are those who use some of Francis’ more left-leaning ideas to estrange them from the Church, by rejecting the Vicar of Christ’s headship. Yes, he may have some beliefs or opinions that are contrary to theirs, but those opinions do not actually impact Catholic Doctrine, and so we still have the obligation to recognize his headship of the Church.

The other people in error are those who take advantage of Francis’ seemingly “progressive” positions to try and advocate for a change in Church doctrine. This is completely out of line and even worse than the first group.

Lastly, the “greyer” area: those who are taking this opportunity to exercise less discipline in regards to certain pastoral choices. Here is where the realm of judging the actions of bishops begins, and I am highly hesitant to do so, so I will only say this: Some consider Francis’ actions to be a signal that it is time to relax the enforcement of certain Church disciplines or doctrines, and this is harmful to the faithful’s faith, even if in some cases it is not, strictly speaking, immoral or against Church Law. This is where many people are struggling to see the best path forward, and it is a source of much contention.

One last observation about the thread title: wheat and chaff. The “separation of the wheat and the chaff” will not occur until the Last Judgement, strictly speaking. You may wish to draw lines of analogy from that to this, but if we’re speaking in a strict sense, the answer is no, God is not “separating the wheat from the chaff.”

 

[oppositeman]

OP, you are incorrect to see this as a black-and-white issue. As with many things in life, it is not so.

You say that “we have those who support him and those that don’t”. Yes, and no. There are those who support Francis by virtue of the fact that he is Pope, but do not share his opinions on certain things. These certain things do not reduce our ability to respect him and pray for him as our pope.

The people in error here are those who use some of Francis’ more left-leaning ideas to estrange them from the Church, by rejecting the Vicar of Christ’s headship. Yes, he may have some beliefs or opinions that are contrary to theirs, but those opinions do not actually impact Catholic Doctrine, and so we still have the obligation to recognize his headship of the Church.

The other people in error are those who take advantage of Francis’ seemingly “progressive” positions to try and advocate for a change in Church doctrine. This is completely out of line and even worse than the first group.

Lastly, the “greyer” area: those who are taking this opportunity to exercise less discipline in regards to certain pastoral choices. Here is where the realm of judging the actions of bishops begins, and I am highly hesitant to do so, so I will only say this: Some consider Francis’ actions to be a signal that it is time to relax the enforcement of certain Church disciplines or doctrines, and this is harmful to the faithful’s faith, even if in some cases it is not, strictly speaking, immoral or against Church Law. This is where many people are struggling to see the best path forward, and it is a source of much contention.

One last observation about the thread title: wheat and chaff. The “separation of the wheat and the chaff” will not occur until the Last Judgement, strictly speaking. You may wish to draw lines of analogy from that to this, but if we’re speaking in a strict sense, the answer is no, God is not “separating the wheat from the chaff.”

Sir, you are a veteran member and I would think you would know that God judges everything we do, say, and think as either being with Him or against Him - regardless of how human judgment introduces “gray area” or situation ethics. His off the cuff words spoken on a variety of topics have found support among Cardinals and Bishops, and regardless of the fact that there have been no formal changes, there is being implemented, by those advocating “modernization”, of “gray area”, changes. This approach has been spoken against by all previous Popes. This is impacting Catholic doctrine and social and family teachings regardless of the fact that nothing formally has changed. While mainstream Catholic media is generally supportive and careful not to criticize him, there is other respectable and knowledgeable media who don’t hesitate to paint his remarks as “flip flop” theology.

Now, it would be fine if his remarks did not amount to anything. The problem is either with or without his support, changes are occurring in dioceses - for example communion for the divorced and remarried. Cupich of Chicago is one who is advocating this.

Underneath this all, is a thinking that the Holy Spirit is enlightening the church in some new way, and this cannot be. For centuries Popes and Doctors of our Church, have spoken out against changing any aspect of our tradition of faith, for many reasons. It is the world that needs to change - not our church. The best path forward, I believe, is no path “forward” - the tradition of faith stands now and forever. The Pope need to order all Cardinals and Bishops to “toe the line” and continue in the same way as previously. All this “deviation”, be it either talk or attempts at implementation is from satan who is constantly trying to destroy Christ’s church.

 

[dshix]

Sir, you are a veteran member and I would think you would know that God judges everything we do, say, and think as either being with Him or against Him - regardless of how human judgment introduces “gray area” or situation ethics. His off the cuff words spoken on a variety of topics have found support among Cardinals and Bishops, and regardless of the fact that there have been no formal changes, there is being implemented, by those advocating “modernization”, of “gray area”, changes. This approach has been spoken against by all previous Popes. This is impacting Catholic doctrine and social and family teachings regardless of the fact that nothing formally has changed. While mainstream Catholic media is generally supportive and careful not to criticize him, there is other respectable and knowledgeable media who don’t hesitate to paint his remarks as “flip flop” theology.

Now, it would be fine if his remarks did not amount to anything. The problem is either with or without his support, changes are occurring in dioceses - for example communion for the divorced and remarried. Cupich of Chicago is one who is advocating this.

Underneath this all, is a thinking that the Holy Spirit is enlightening the church in some new way, and this cannot be. For centuries Popes and Doctors of our Church, have spoken out against changing any aspect of our tradition of faith, for many reasons. It is the world that needs to change - not our church. The best path forward, I believe, is no path “forward” - the tradition of faith stands now and forever. The Pope need to order all Cardinals and Bishops to “toe the line” and continue in the same way as previously. All this “deviation”, be it either talk or attempts at implementation is from satan who is constantly trying to destroy Christ’s church.

I think I am gradually getting closer to understanding what you’re getting at.

Still, though, I think you are making the mistake of conflating two things: 1) the black and white of an act being either for or against God’s will and 2) support or rejection of Pope Francis.

These two things are not the same. The fact is that the Pope and bishops have jurisdiction to make certain pastoral changes, and some of those changes are not, strictly speaking, immoral, even though that may be unwise, unbefitting, or dangerous.

Through it all, we still have an obligation to recognize the sovereignty of the Pope as Vicar of Christ. Yes, Satan is constantly attacking the Church. Yes, we have had, will have, and have at this moment some corrupt clergy. Yes, even popes are capable of making mistakes and sinning.

But no, we can’t paint this black and white, and say that since clergyman X does something or says something unwise in a pastoral context, we are “against God” if we support him by virtue of his office.

Do you understand that?

 

[oppositeman]

No sir you are absolutely wrong, I believe. God judges us on what we believe (for there comes our thoughts, words, and actions) not on who we believe nor on the office they hold. Our church does not call us to blindly believe. We have the duty to Christ, our Church, and our brothers and sisters to speak up and appropriately ask questions or request clarification on anything having to do with our faith. First and foremost Bishops have this responsibility and they have properly exercised it. It is only in a very narrow set of circumstances that the Pope is infallible.

Whatever the Pope says or does has an effect on us. God will hold him responsible for every last bit of it and judge him as being either for or against. His comments and his silence on not correcting the Cardinals and Bishops that are advocating a deviation from the deposit of faith that has been carefully crafted with the Holy Spirit over centuries, is leading the faithful in the wrong direction.

These are extremely dangerous times for our Church, and unless the faithful wake up and start paying attention, I am afraid many will follow in his error if he is allowed to continue with what certainly is obviously an agenda of “modernization” where he is using “flip-flop” theology to shine light on his reforms which is nothing but false mercy and certainly not from God.

 

[dshix]

No sir you are absolutely wrong, I believe. God judges us on what we believe (for there comes our thoughts, words, and actions) not on who we believe nor on the office they hold. Our church does not call us to blindly believe. We have the duty to Christ, our Church, and our brothers and sisters to speak up and appropriately ask questions or request clarification on anything having to do with our faith. First and foremost Bishops have this responsibility and they have properly exercised it. It is only in a very narrow set of circumstances that the Pope is infallible.

Whatever the Pope says or does has an effect on us. God will hold him responsible for every last bit of it and judge him as being either for or against. His comments and his silence on not correcting the Cardinals and Bishops that are advocating a deviation from the deposit of faith that has been carefully crafted with the Holy Spirit over centuries, is leading the faithful in the wrong direction.

These are extremely dangerous times for our Church, and unless the faithful wake up and start paying attention, I am afraid many will follow in his error if he is allowed to continue with what certainly is obviously an agenda of “modernization” where he is using “flip-flop” theology to shine light on his reforms which is nothing but false mercy and certainly not from God.

oppositeman, I made a very clear distinction in my last post between two things: 1) recognizing the Pope’s sovereignty as Vicar of Christ and 2) agreeing with the Pope in all things.

These two things are not the same. And you ignored my distinction, which smells of intellectual dishonesty.

I agree with you that certain pastoral decisions are unwise, and it is not sinful for the laity to have an opinion which is contrary to that of a Pope or a bishop.

However, it is sinful to reject the Pope’s authority or his role as Vicar of Christ. This is not up for debate. If you do not accept this, you are absolutely wrong, and you are in fact committing a sin of formal schism, which is grave (mortal) matter.

There have been some very, very bad popes in the Church’s history. And they were valid popes. You must accept this fact.

Now, please answer to this post making clear your position, and then we can continue the conversation in respect to the other aspects which we are discussing.

 

[oppositeman]

oppositeman, I made a very clear distinction in my last post between two things: 1) recognizing the Pope’s sovereignty as Vicar of Christ and 2) agreeing with the Pope in all things.

These two things are not the same. And you ignored my distinction, which smells of intellectual dishonesty.

I agree with you that certain pastoral decisions are unwise, and it is not sinful for the laity to have an opinion which is contrary to that of a Pope or a bishop.

However, it is sinful to reject the Pope’s authority or his role as Vicar of Christ. This is not up for debate. If you do not accept this, you are absolutely wrong, and you are in fact committing a sin of formal schism, which is grave (mortal) matter.

There have been some very, very bad popes in the Church’s history. And they were valid popes. You must accept this fact.

Now, please answer to this post making clear your position, and then we can continue the conversation in respect to the other aspects which we are discussing.

I don’t reject his authority as the Vicar of Christ, at the present time. There are those that do and they present information to support their claim - however they have no hard evidence. So, unless this can be proven - that Benedict was forced out by liberal Cardinals, I accept Francis as our Pope. So where are we going with this conversation?