Is God somehow a logical Trinity? Is he somehow parts and whole?

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In some way, isn’t the Father the same as the Son, that is, inasmuch as they are God?

So wouldn’t that mean that in some way, God is only logically distinguished and that the Persons are someway God?

Also, although the Persons are not parts of God, they are in some way, integral to God’s existence for if there were no Son, then there would be no God. In what way are the Persons like parts in God?
 
fakename

**In what way are the Persons like parts in God? **

Somewhat, but not exactly, as there is one atom with three parts: electron, proton, neutron.

The atom could not exist without its parts: the parts could not exist without a whole.

Three in one.
 
Well perhaps I shouldn’t use the word parts, but I don’t think that God’s existence has parts, much less then, that the Trinity should be these “parts” since God’s existence is his totally united essence.

Perhaps I should say, that the Trinity is as integral to God as God’s power. But how can something be integral in God save in our conceptions and even then, rather imprecisely? Yet there are some things like power, that if they were not in God, we could not say that God was God. These notions of persons are integral but what does integral mean in context?
 
There is one God, there are three Persons. These seem to be opposing statements, but yet they are true. This is why the Trinity is a mystery.

The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Sprit is God.

But the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son.

They are distinct Persons but one God – each fully God. The Trinity is not IN God as His power. The Trinity IS God.

When trying to understand theological concepts, it is best to use the language of the Church. When we start to use our own words (“the notions of persons are integral”), we may get sidetracked (“what does integral mean”).

I recommend the book “Theology and Sanity” by Frank Sheed. He does a wonderful job of explaining the theology of the Trinity.
 
fakename said:
In some way, isn’t the Father the same as the Son, that is, inasmuch as they are God?

So wouldn’t that mean that in some way, God is only logically distinguished and that the Persons are someway God?

Also, although the Persons are not parts of God, they are in some way, integral to God’s existence for if there were no Son, then there would be no God. In what way are the Persons like parts in God?
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Little snip-its from Theology for beginners F.J. Sheed

The three persons do not share the divine nature; it is utterly simple and cannot be divided up; it can be possessed only it its totality

because God is infinite, there is no distinction between his attributes and himself. This is difficult to put briefly. We must Try. take knowledge, and begin with our own. My knowing is something that I do, but it is not myself. This may not strike us as a limitation but it is, and a considerable one. If only my knowledge were myself, I should be all knowing all the time, simply by being; I should not have to make a distinct effort to know,I should never forget. But, as it is, my knowledge is less than myself; I am finite enough, heaven knows, but my knowledge is more finite still.

Now God’s knowing is not subject to this limitation. It is not distinct form himself. It is himself. If it were not, if there were really a distinction between his knowledge and himself, then he would have something that his knowledge lacked. in that event it would not be infinite.

this applies to all his attributes. Just as god is knowledge, so he is love, he is justice he is mercy. We have to think of them as distinct, in order to think of them at all; nut in him they are not distinct from his very self, and therefore not from one another. Whatever god has, he is. And these attributes are not less themselves for being infinite. Gods love would not be greater by being distinct from his very self-as ours is.

We are saying three persons in one nature. we are not saying three equals one. We have to give person and nature there proper meaning. Nature decides what actions are possible to me, I do them, I the person; nature is the source of our operation, person does them.

If each of the persons is god then there must be three Gods right. “Three men”. Brown and Jones and Robinson are three distinct persons each posseing a human nature. So far, as you say, there is a compete parallel. Father, Son, Spirit. are three distinct persons, each possessing divine nature. But obsever the difference. Brown and Jones and Robenson each has his own allotment of human nature; Brown does not love with Robersons will. Jones does not understand Brown intellect. Each has his own.

The term three Gods could only mean three distinct persons, each with his own separate divine nature, his own separate equipment as God. But this is not jso they possess one single nature; they do in fact what our three men could not do. They know with the same intellect, love with the same will.

God uttered a word, a word who is with God, a word who is God. What idea produced in Gods mind could possibly be God? Christian thinking saw early that it could be only the idea god had of himself.

What ever is in the Father must be in the idea of himself, and must be exactly the same as it is in himself. Otherwise God would have an inadequate idea of himself. Thus because god is infinite, eternal, all powerful, his idea of himself is infinite, eternal, all powerful. Because God is god his idea is God. And the Word was God

Gods idea of himself is not something only; it is Someone, for it can know and love. the thinker and the idea are distinct, the one is not the other, father and Son are two persons. but they are not separate. An idea can exist only in the mid of the thinker; it cannot as it were, go off and start a separate life on its own. the idea is in the same identical nature.

Hope this helps you should buy the book 🙂
 
“God uttered a word, a word who is with God, a word who is God. What idea produced in Gods mind could possibly be God? Christian thinking saw early that it could be only the idea God had of himself.”

That’s the problem, if God never Uttered the Word of God, then God could not exist for the Trinity would be disrupted. So in some sense the Word of God is necessary and “integral” for the existence of God. But not as a part but as something important, which something I don’t know.
 
“But the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son.”

But what I’m asking is that in some way, the Father is the Son etc. and that the Father is not the Son etc.

That is, the Son and the Father, as God, are both the same but as Persons they are different. In one way their difference is nominal in the other way their difference is real.

True?
 
fakename

**In what way are the Persons like parts in God? **

God made us in his image and likeness, no?

Father, Son, Holy Spirit … Father, Mother, Child

Three is the magical number! Even Pythagoras thought so, without knowing the Trinity.

Take it from there. 👍
 
fakename said:
That is, the Son and the Father, as God, are both the same but as Persons they are different. In one way their difference is nominal in the other way their difference is real.

True?
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Again, to use the language of the Church, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one (as opposed to your term “the same”) and the Persons are distinct (as opposed to your term “different”). I know it probably seems like splitting hairs to insist on using particular terms, but we have to be precise because it can make all the difference in the world in meaning.

Here are two short video clips on the Trinity by Fr. Robert Barron that may be helpful to you
wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Faith-Clips-new/Can-God-Really-Be-Both-One-and-Many-.aspx

wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Faith-Clips-new/Can-we-Completely-Understand-the-Trinity-.aspx
 
fakename said:
“But the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son.”

But what I’m asking is that in some way, the Father is the Son etc. and that the Father is not the Son etc.

That is, the Son and the Father, as God, are both the same but as Persons they are different. In one way their difference is nominal in the other way their difference is real.

True?
Click to expand...
Please consider the following understanding:
God, the Creator, is a Complete Person: A Spirit with Body and Mind and a Will which proceeds from the Being of the Body and Mind. The Creator’s Nature is Perfect Love - Patience, Peace, Kindness, Happiness, Motivation, Energy, Knowledge, and Wisdom towards Others and Himself.
The Instance the Creator Willed the Word and created His Creations, God, the Creator became the Word. God took on the role of Fatherhood, therefore He is God, The Father.
Since the Word is His, Everything that Happens in the World is the Fulfillment of the Thoughts of His Mind.
God, The Creator knew from the beginning of time that at some point, He would have to come down from Heaven and become Man, born as the Son of Man, in order to Complete His Teachings. God, the Creator, took on a Human Nature with a Free Mind and a Free Will while being Begotten of the Image and Body of the Creator, therefore He is God, The Son, Our Lord, a Distinct Person from the Father, but one in Being with the Father.
Since All of Us Share in the Free Will and Free Desires of God, the Creator, we are each of God’s Will. At some fullness of time, one of us, a Distinct Person, will learn and become One in the Purpose and Nature of The Creator. Therefore, one of us will proceed from the Father and Son to become One in Purpose and Nature by becoming Perfectly Patient and Kind and Motivated for God with All our Body, Mind, Will, and Spirit as Jesus Did according to His Church. This Person is God, the Holy Spirit, a Distinct Person.

All three Persons are Distinct, but of the Same Person. All three Persons will be One in the Nature of God. All three Persons are Necessary to Fulfill the Purpose of God, The Creator.

Thoughts?
 
Well, of course it’s true that the Trinity cannot be comprehended -I’ve never argued that it could.

I have assumed that our idea of the Trinity must be not non-sense and I’m sure that that position is so theologically sound that it may be taken for granted.

Similarly, I’m not sure how the wording does help (I didn’t get that from the videos). Can you tell me how using the words one and distinct, helps answer my questions?
 
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can not be described as the same because that could be interpreted to mean that the Father is the same as the Son, the Son is the same as the Holy Spirit, etc. But the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, etc. They are, however, of one nature, God.

However, they are not different persons in the way that you and I are different human beings. We are two people and two human beings. They are three persons but not three gods. There is only one God. But three distinct persons, each wholley God.

So, really, it just goes around and around. We can’t pin down the understanding. But in trying to make sense of it, the only way to accurately reflect the reality of the Trinity is use the language of the Church.
 
“The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can not be described as the same because that could be interpreted to mean that the Father is the same as the Son, the Son is the same as the Holy Spirit, etc. But the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, etc. They are, however, of one nature, God.”

Well maybe in front of others I wouldn’t call the Father and Son and etc. the same but I know in my own mind it makes sense to say that they are: Not that they are the same as persons but it logically follows that if the Son is God and the Father is God and etc. then they are the same as far as their divinity goes. But as far as their personhood goes, clearly they are different. And in this sense the Father and Son are different Persons.

Would that be unorthodox and why?
 
When you say they are the same as far as their divinity goes, if you are saying that they are of the same nature, God, then that is correct.

As far as their personhood, they are different, not in nature, but as distinct persons.

😃 See, there goes the language of the Church again! 😉
 
Trinity Readers,

In the Trinity doctrine, each ‘‘person’’ is understood as having the same identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.

If essence is taken to mean the spirit of One God, then this is true by tautology from definition. The spirit of the Father is the spirit of the Son, and their union in the conjoined Spirit of All That Is constitutes a glorified third spirit-person, which is not just the spirit of the Father, nor only the spirit of the Son, but the consummate Spirit of both. Nevertheless the three are of one same spirit, or essence and basic nature. Same spirit, same universal mind, individual personalities of freewill dignity, eternally unified in the Trinity of One God.

Whereas most people have only one personality, God has at least three, and they all share the Universal Mind of logic and reason, as well as the spirit of morality and conscience. The key to understanding how they share lies in the Augustine/Aquinas orthodox concept of “perichoresis” or dancing around of personality prerogatives.

This is all discussed in a new book “The Trinity Absolute: a Constructive Interpretation of World Religions” currently previewing on the web at www.trinityabsolute.com.

The thesis is that Muslims worship only the first person of the Trinity, i.e. the Deity Absolute Primogenitor. Christians and some Hindus worship the first person through the second person, i.e. the Universe Absolute Supreme Being or Oversoul. And many Hindus and some Buddhists believe in the synthesis of the first and second persons in a third person, i.e. the Unconditioned Absolute Spirit of All That Is or Consummator.

It is argued that world religions reflect the systematic unity of One God in Trinity manifestations, which become almost universal when you consider that some flavours of Buddhism, Confucian-Taoism, and other major religions seem to be psychological combinations or permutations of the first three – all just different personality perspectives on the same God.

If the purpose of life is to find God and be like him, then the way to do the will of God is to let him live your life with you, helping fuse your personality and spirit in your immortal soul. That immortality may be achieved through participation in the Universe Absolute Oversoul, of which Jesus Christ seems to be the head representative; although in considering this Universe Supreme Being, Muslims would insist on including Muhammad, and Hindus might suggest Gandhi, etc. At the spirit level of the universe, we can speculate that the corresponding leaders might be Michael, Gabriel, and some unidentified angel(s).

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com

For further additional discussion, please see the postings on the “Questions about Trinity” page of this website.
 
fakename said:
In some way, isn’t the Father the same as the Son, that is, inasmuch as they are God?

So wouldn’t that mean that in some way, God is only logically distinguished and that the Persons are someway God?

Also, although the Persons are not parts of God, they are in some way, integral to God’s existence for if there were no Son, then there would be no God. In what way are the Persons like parts in God?
Click to expand...
I think to start to answer your question we have to define what a Person is when referring to God and what God’s nature is. Nature refers to what something is. For instance a rock has the nature of rock. It is composed of more rock. A person refers to who it is. So, you are a person. you have a unique identity from other persons. While one could argue that you and I are just extensions of each other, yet we still have individual characteristics that distinguish each other.

While we both have a human nature, we do not share the same one. Your being is separate from my being. We are separate beings and separate persons. Thus we are each 1 being and 1 person. This relationship of 1 being to 1 person is familiar to us and easier to understand.

Now, when it comes to the trinity, we have a harder time understanding how God can be one being, one nature, yet have 3 Persons. One could ask, how may persons could God be if he wanted to be? The answer is as many as he wants, since God can do anything.

Now when it comes to the nature of God, what God is composed of, we can say that God is pure spirit. A spirit does not have parts because something that has parts like our bodies do exists in space and time and uses material. Since God created matter, space, and time, he does not consist of these elements. If he did he would be bound by them since these elements are all bounded by the physical laws that limit them. Thus, God can not have ‘parts’ like you and I do. A spirit exists without parts. He is completely simple.

Now, to go back to the idea that each being has only one person. This idea comes from observing ourselves. Of course, when we observe ourselves we do not fully understand ourselves completely. It is like trying to see the outside of a box from within it. We are in some way limited to even fully know ourselves.

Yet, God is not bound by such limitations that we are. God fully knows himself. And his knowledge of himself or his thought about himself is so perfect that it is a perfect reflection of himself in the form of a person, the 2nd person of the Trinity. The Word made flesh. Of course, God does not speak with a mouth. That would mean he has parts. His Word is of course originating from the Father who is origin of all. It originates as a perfect reflection of himself.

Now the Son possesses the same divine nature as the Father. The two do not share the same divine nature because that would imply that the divine nature is somehow divided. Rather, each fully possesses the one divine nature. The divine nature can not be divide because it does not have parts. It is completely simple.

Could the Son have his own divine nature? No. If the Son had his own divine nature and the Father had his own separate divine nature then the two divine natures would conflict. Since the nature of God is that he is all powerful. Having two all powerful divine natures would mean that one would limit the other. Thus, it is not possible to have 2 all powerful divine natures. There can only be one. Thus, the Son has the same divine nature as his Father.

That’s all the time I have to write for now. I recommend reading Frank Sheed’s book about theology.
 
Some may fail to grasp the mystery of the Trinity because they observe that human beings, being limited by the brain, are only capable of expressing one personality at a time. Even those with multiple personality disorders are only capable of expressing one of their personalities at a time. God, being Spirit, is not bound by this limitation, and we believe that he has revealed himself in three persons, which are co-eternal in existence/being and expression/action.
 
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