Is God unchageable and immovable?

[bobzills]

In philosophy courses we read that the Supreme Being has many properties such as All-Knowing, All-Loving, All-Powerful, Immovable, Transcendent, etc. And it is said that God must be unchageable. However, a question could arise when we consider the Sacrifice of the Mass. Before the Mass begins, God is not Sacramentally present in the Bread and Wine. However, during the Mass, and because of the prayers of the priest, God comes down from heaven and makes Himself Sacramentally present in the Bread and Wine. Is this not a change? Before the Mass God was not Sacramentally present in the Bread and Wine. However, because of the prayers of the priest, God becomes Sacramentally present. What can be said about this with reference to the fact that we believe God to be unchangeable and immovable? It seems that God has moved because of the prayers of the priest at Mass?

 

[cpayne]

You could say the same thing about any answer to prayer, not just the sacrament of communion.

Usually the answer is something like “God, being unchangeable and immovable, eternally wills the answers to prayers—which looks to us (in time) like a change, but from God’s point of view is not.”

 

[FightingFat]

Not changing… Perichoresis

 

[bobzills]

Not changing… Perichoresis

I don’t see where Perichoresis has anything to do with the question of the immovablitiy of God? My understanding of Perichoresis is that it describes the relationship between each person of the Trinity. Each Person of the Trinity is indvidual, but at the same time shares in the life of the other two.

 

[wasmit]

What can be said about this with reference to the fact that we believe God to be unchangeable and immovable? It seems that God has moved because of the prayers of the priest at Mass?

You could say that god does not move, and is not actually present in bread/wine.

 

[Ghosty]

God doesn’t change, the bread does. A worldly example would be a person and a tree: when the person is under the the tree, the tree is “the tree giving shade to that man”, but when the person moves the tree is no longer “the tree giving shade to that man”, though there has been no change in the tree itself.

So, with the Eucharist, the Body and Blood does not move or change, but the bread and wine do; the Body and Blood don’t “come down”, but the bread and wine transform from being simple material substances to being direct conduits to the Body and Blood.

Peace and God bless!

 

[bobzills]

God doesn’t change, the bread does. A worldly example would be a person and a tree: when the person is under the the tree, the tree is “the tree giving shade to that man”, but when the person moves the tree is no longer “the tree giving shade to that man”, though there has been no change in the tree itself.

So, with the Eucharist, the Body and Blood does not move or change, but the bread and wine do; the Body and Blood don’t “come down”, but the bread and wine transform from being simple material substances to being direct conduits to the Body and Blood.

Peace and God bless!

But does prayer influence God in any way?

 

[cpayne]

But does prayer influence God in any way?

Again, with reference to Post 2, you could say that if it weren’t for the existence of the prayer, there would not be the existence of the answer to the prayer. If God has not eternally seen and heard the prayer, God would not eternally see the answer to our prayer.

 

[bobzills]

Again, with reference to Post 2, you could say that if it weren’t for the existence of the prayer, there would not be the existence of the answer to the prayer. If God has not eternally seen and heard the prayer, God would not eternally see the answer to our prayer.

But we have the prayer of Jesus: “And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” With this prayer, does not Jesus ask that this cup be allowed to pass?

 

[cpayne]

But we have the prayer of Jesus: “And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” With this prayer, does not Jesus ask that this cup be allowed to pass?

Yes. But again, your objection applies to all prayer. Let’s say I prayed that God would help me do X if it is His will. Later on I do in fact do X.

Assuming that what God sees happening does in fact happen—what God sees is my prayer and the answer to my prayer. God sees this from all eternity.

Now let’s assume I do not pray. What God sees (again, from all eternity) is that I do not pray, and also I do not receive an answer to prayer.

Many prayers also do not ask for specific answers (here I’m thinking of Jesus’ prayer). They are prayers more like, “Lord, I submit myself to Your will, whatever it is.” These prayers also are of value: God sees these prayers and He also sees our subsequent obedience. If He did not see the prayer, He would not see the obedience either.

For us, these things are time-locked: This happens and then later this happens. For God, it would seem to be one all-encompassing sight: He sees the prayer and the answer, or on the other hand, He does not see the prayer and does not see the answer.
The prayer and the answer are connected, even though they do not change God.