Is God Vengeful?

[Lost_Sheep]

If you commit a sin here on earth does God - confession notwithstanding - punish you for your actions?

 

[christofirst]

Every time I pray the Act of Contrition I say, “And I detest all of my sins, because of Thy just punishments…” so yes, there are consequences for sin, which take place perhaps now, perhaps later.

Is God vengeful? The Bible says, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord” Does such an anthropomorphism really tell us something of God’s essence, or is it actually meant for our benefit so that we will leave any potential acts of vengeance to God, instead of always taking matters into our own hands? In this Year of Mercy especially, I prefer to think that God’s vengeance, whatever it may be in light of His mercy, will be supremely superior to whatever thoughts of vengeance might occur to us. In any event, try to stay on His good side!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you commit a sin here on earth does God - confession notwithstanding - punish you for your actions?

No, God does not punish you when you commit a sin.

The suffering you receive is the consequence of sin itself, which moves you away from God.

Follow Pope Francis in this year of Mercy, and pray to understand God’s mercy.

Jim

 

[pianistclare]

No, Jim is correct.
Once confessed, completely forgiven and forgotten.
And if one has perfect contrition, one can receive mercy.
Be at peace.

 

[christofirst]

Well, there’s the destroying of all of Sodom and Gomorrah because many were sinning…Lot’s wife turned into salt merely for looking back at her destroyed city…Onan killed for refusing to impregnate his dead brother’s wife…drowning the Egyptian army for refusing to follow orders…Nadab and Abihu, sons of Aaron, burned to death because they didn’t do the fire ritual right. There’s the plague on the Isrealites for complaining about the food and water…etc, etc.
And the flood killing almost everyone, of course.
I think the tally is something like 20 million deaths that God personally makes happen in the Christian canon because people have sinned or they didn’t follow orders or…they just got Him angry.

I think…yeah. It seems the Judeo-Christian God can be vengeful and punishing.

.

Cardinal Walter Kasper offers a response to this understanding in his book, Mercy, The Essence of the Gospel and the Key to Christian Life:

“There is a widely held opinion that the God of the Old Testament is a vengeful, angry God, while the God of the New Testament is a gracious and merciful God. Now there are, in fact, texts in the Old Testament that can support this position. Those passages speak of the killing and expulsion of the pagan population of entire cities and peoples at the behest of God (Deut 7:21-24, 9:3, Josh 6:21, 8:1-29, 1 Sam 15). One can also think of the imprecatory Psalms (above all Psalm 58, 83 & 109). ** Nevertheless, this view does not do justice to the gradual process by which the Old Testament’s idea of God is gradually transformed, nor does it do justice to the internal development of the Old Testament in the direction of the New Testament. Ultimately, both Testaments give witness to the same God**.”

“Thus God’s mercy is the power of God that sustains, protects, promotes, builds up, and creates life anew. It bursts the logic of human justice, which entails the punishment and death of the sinner. God’s mercy desires life. In fidelity to the covenant with his people, God mercifully reestablishes the relationship with him that was destroyed by sin and he grants dependable living conditions anew. Mercy is God’s option for life.”

He goes on (and on), but his point (I think) is that our understanding of the vengeful God who punishes is an incomplete understanding, based on the incomplete knowledge and understanding of the ancient peoples during the course of salvation history.

 

[Dorothy]

Well, there’s the destroying of all of Sodom and Gomorrah because many were sinning…Lot’s wife turned into salt merely for looking back at her destroyed city…Onan killed for refusing to impregnate his dead brother’s wife…drowning the Egyptian army for refusing to follow orders…Nadab and Abihu, sons of Aaron, burned to death because they didn’t do the fire ritual right. There’s the plague on the Isrealites for complaining about the food and water…etc, etc.
And the flood killing almost everyone, of course.
I think the tally is something like 20 million deaths that God personally makes happen in the Christian canon because people have sinned or they didn’t follow orders or…they just got Him angry.

I think…yeah. It seems the Judeo-Christian God can be vengeful and punishing.

I haven’t read the Koran or other holy scriptures, so not sure about what happens there.

.

When one looks at a crucifix and ponders the horrendous suffering for us, of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, then one can also pray for the gift of wisdom to aid in understanding Sacred Scripture correctly.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, there’s the destroying of all of Sodom and Gomorrah because many were sinning…Lot’s wife turned into salt merely for looking back at her destroyed city…Onan killed for refusing to impregnate his dead brother’s wife…drowning the Egyptian army for refusing to follow orders…Nadab and Abihu, sons of Aaron, burned to death because they didn’t do the fire ritual right. There’s the plague on the Isrealites for complaining about the food and water…etc, etc.
And the flood killing almost everyone, of course.
I think the tally is something like 20 million deaths that God personally makes happen in the Christian canon because people have sinned or they didn’t follow orders or…they just got Him angry.

I think…yeah. It seems the Judeo-Christian God can be vengeful and punishing.

I haven’t read the Koran or other holy scriptures, so not sure about what happens there.

.

The OT must be understood from the context of tribal theology of the time.

Everything bad that happened to them, was because they sinned. Everything good, was because they found favor with God.

In other words, God was a vengeful supreme being, rather than a merciful one.

Christ revealed that God is merciful and forgiving. If he were not, he would not have become man in Jesus Christ, suffered died and rose us, while we were yet sinners.

Jim

 

[AnneElizabeth]

The OT must be understood from the context of tribal theology of the time.

Everything bad that happened to them, was because they sinned. Everything good, was because they found favor with God.

In other words, God was a vengeful supreme being, rather than a merciful one.

Christ revealed that God is merciful and forgiving. If he were not, he would not have become man in Jesus Christ, suffered died and rose us, while we were yet sinners.

Jim

Acts 5:1-11New International Version (NIV)
Ananias and Sapphira were struck down dead on the spot because of their sin.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Acts 5:1-11New International Version (NIV)
Ananias and Sapphira were struck down dead on the spot because of their sin.

Still in the OT tribal theology mindset.

Jim

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Still in the OT tribal theology mindset.

Jim

Please explain what you mean. The passage I quoted is New Testament. Christ already incarnated when this event happened. Why would it still be OT tribal theology mindset? … if I’m understanding you correctly.

 

[littlestsouls2]

“… because the divine nature is passionless [God’s essence is unchanging Goodness], God never punishes nor takes vengeance with wrath, but with tender care and much loving-kindness. So we must be of much good courage and trust in the power of repentance. *God does not punish for His own sake even those who have sinned against Him, for nothing can harm that divine nature.” *
– St. John Chrysostom

God’s punishments are not arbitrary. Were it not for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the world would have been annihilated due to sin (according to the Saints and sound theology).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Please explain what you mean. The passage I quoted is New Testament. Christ already incarnated when this event happened. Why would it still be OT tribal theology mindset? … if I’m understanding you correctly.

The Apostles were still in an OT Jewish mindset. They saw what went wrong as God’s punishment, verses the natural consequence for sin.

Also, when they wrote about various events such as struck down dead or turning a person into a pillar of salt, we don’t know what exactly what that meant.

Did they literally fall down to the ground dead, or did they somehow suffer an accident of some sort immediately after. Did a person who turned into a pillar of salt, actually mean a person who had a stroke ?

We don’t know, but the mindset of those times saw everything being caused by the divine.

We have to be careful not to take Scripture literally but in the context of the culture from where it came.

Jim

 

[AnneElizabeth]

The Apostles were still in an OT Jewish mindset. They saw what went wrong as God’s punishment, verses the natural consequence for sin.

Also, when the wrote about various events such as struck down dead, we don’t know what exactly what that meant.

Did they literally fall down to the ground dead, or did they somehow suffer an accident of some sort immediately after.

We don’t know, but the mindset of those times saw everything being caused by the divine.

We have to be careful not to take Scripture literally but in the context of the culture from where it came.

Jim
Jim

Jim,

Thank you for answering back, but with all due respect, I don’t see at all what you are saying… it seems like a mega stretch.

The Scriptures speak plainly for themselves that they were “struck” and if the apostles were in the “mindset of OT”, does it even matter? Because I thought ALL of Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit (through men). 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness

Clearly it was meant to say that God struck them down dead because of their sin. Every webpage article (Catholic or non) that I read states has stated it as such. I’ve never heard of the interpretation you give here.

If God is the one who is control of everything, then why should we think differently than those apostles who as you say “saw everything being caused by the divine”. Its kind of a big coincidence that the both of them died in such a fast and mysterious manner so closely together for it to be anything but the hand of God, which is what Holy Scripture insinuates here.

Furthermore, about “seeing everything being caused by the divine”, Jesus did say something about doing that in this passage: Matthew 16:2 But He replied to them, "When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3"And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?

^ I would think that means that Jesus expects us to interpret the spiritual… even correctly.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim,

Thank you for answering back, but with all due respect, I don’t see at all what you are saying… it seems like a mega stretch.

The Scriptures speak plainly for themselves that they were “struck” and if the apostles were in the “mindset of OT”, does it even matter? Because I thought ALL of Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit (through men). 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness

Clearly it was meant to say that God struck them down dead because of their sin. Every webpage article (Catholic or non) that I read states has stated it as such. I’ve never heard of the interpretation you give here.

If God is the one who is control of everything, then why should we think differently than those apostles who as you say “saw everything being caused by the divine”. Its kind of a big coincidence that the both of them died in such a fast and mysterious manner so closely together for it to be anything but the hand of God, which is what Holy Scripture insinuates here.

Furthermore, about “seeing everything being caused by the divine”, Jesus did say something about doing that in this passage: Matthew 16:2 But He replied to them, "When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3"And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?

^ I would think that means that Jesus expects us to interpret the spiritual… even correctly.

Well, at this point, you’ll have to pray and learn to discern this on your own.

This is the year of Mercy, so, we need to understand just exactly what God means by being a God of mercy.

Jim

 

[Jon_Mallory]

The OT must be understood from the context of tribal theology of the time.

Everything bad that happened to them, was because they sinned. Everything good, was because they found favor with God.

In other words, God was a vengeful supreme being, rather than a merciful one.

Christ revealed that God is merciful and forgiving. If he were not, he would not have become man in Jesus Christ, suffered died and rose us, while we were yet sinners.

Jim

So all the actions attributed to God in the OT were not really done by God? Hence, the “God” of the OT is a different God from the NT. That sounds like Marcionism.

The Scriptures also have their literal sense. This is attested to by the Fathers such as St. Augustine. I am leery of more progressive ways of interpreting Scriptures.

 

[Convert_in_99]

If you commit a sin here on earth does God - confession notwithstanding - punish you for your actions?

This is tough to explain.

I best sum it up by saying that we are not usually so much directly punished for our sins as we in actuality suffer from the CONSEQUENCES of our sinful actions as well as the consequences from the sinful actions of others.

Does that make sense?

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Well, at this point, you’ll have to pray and learn to discern this on your own.

This is the year of Mercy, so, we need to understand just exactly what God means by being a God of mercy.

Jim

Ok, but I am not really sure what you mean by all that. Thank you anyhow.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So all the actions attributed to God in the OT were not really done by God? Hence, the “God” of the OT is a different God from the NT. That sounds like Marcionism.

The Scriptures also have their literal sense. This is attested to by the Fathers such as St. Augustine. I am leery of more progressive ways of interpreting Scriptures.

Well, you’ll have to take it up with Jesus, for he presented God the Father as different than the Old Testament writers often thought.

If God punishes people for their sins, what about Jesus who was sinless ? Look at how he suffered. Or, loot at His mother, Our Blessed Mother, she was conceived without sin, yet suffered.

You can can look at all the saints in their holiness, they suffered. Were they being punished by God ?

Fact is, good and bad people suffer in this life. Its the result of being separated from God, and that isn’t His punishment to us, but the consequence of sin, which prevents us from being in his presence.

Jim

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Well, there’s the destroying of all of Sodom and Gomorrah because many were sinning…Lot’s wife turned into salt merely for looking back at her destroyed city…Onan killed for refusing to impregnate his dead brother’s wife…drowning the Egyptian army for refusing to follow orders…Nadab and Abihu, sons of Aaron, burned to death because they didn’t do the fire ritual right. There’s the plague on the Isrealites for complaining about the food and water…etc, etc.
And the flood killing almost everyone, of course.
I think the tally is something like 20 million deaths that God personally makes happen in the Christian canon because people have sinned or they didn’t follow orders or…they just got Him angry.

I think…yeah. It seems the Judeo-Christian God can be vengeful and punishing.

I haven’t read the Koran or other holy scriptures, so not sure about what happens there.
.

Thanks, but I’m thinking more along the lines of on an individual basis; not against a society. Like if you were to, for example, backstab a coworker in order to get a promotion. Or illegally copy computer software. Or cheat on your taxes. That sort of thing.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Romans 12:18-20

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19Never take your own revenge, beloved,** but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. **20"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."…